More efficient manufacturing, falling battery costs and intense competition are lowering sticker prices for battery-powered models to within striking distance of gasoline cars.
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I paid too much for my EV, but am glad to see the prices come down for future buyers. When the price is competitive with ICE vehicles, I think we’ll see rapid adoption.
I got my EV used, and in three years I’ve already saved more on gas than I paid for it.
EVs are so much cheaper to maintain and operate; no gas, no oil changes, no transmission, no sparkplugs or timing belts. If the sale prices are close, the total cost of ownership will be massively in favor of the EV.
Wait WHAT? EVs don’t require regular maintenance like a normal car does? That’s SICK (if true)
It does require maintenance, but you don’t have to worry about the engine, transmission, turbos and other related moving parts. Your maintenance is basically brakes, tyres and other simple and cheap wear and tear parts.
So no oil changes and shit like that? That’s is the biggest pro I’ve ever heard for EVs lmao
Drawback is EVs tend to run through tires faster, and you should be careful selecting tires because they can have a drastic effect on range (the better ones obviously being far more expensive). Also, road noise from cheap tires is much more noticeable without several thousand controlled explosions per minute happening three feet from your face.
Is this specific to cars¿? I have an EV scooter (more powerful than a moped and without pedals) and I have not observed higher tyre wear. But then again my scooter isnt much much heavier than its petrol counterpart. Cars on the other hand do see a drastic increase in weight when going from ICE to EV
I would assume it’s because EVs may be heavier than there ICE counterparts.
Edit:thanks for the downvote. But…
That’s a myth. EVs have EV specific tyres. Just like trucks have truck specific tyres. No one would drive trucks if you were forced to use small car tyres on them.
Anyone who’s owned an EV and a comparable ICE vehicle knows this isn’t a myth at all lmao. They weigh more, and all that instant torque at 0 RPM means that you’re almost guaranteed to go through tires faster.
Nope. I mean I’ve replaced the tires once and windshield wipers a couple times, refilled the wiper fluid, but that’s about it. The thing that powers the car is a sealed electric motor, not too unlike the kind you’d find in a washing machine; it works for decades and hundreds of thousands of miles without service. It’s just magnets and wires inside, no explosions or soot to gum up the works.
Since the motor also works as a regenerative brake, you need to service the brake pads much less often. And since the 12v cabin battery is kept constantly tended and never used for cranking, it also lasts many years longer.
So yes, still some maintenance, but you save a ton of time and money long term.
There’s no combustion engine and gearbox, so no oil :)
Modern cars in general are cheaper to operate. Have had a hybrid for 7 or 8 years. Other than annual oil changes and one change of tires, it has been zero maintenance. Still on the original brake pads thanks to regen braking (which EVs also benefit from, but the extra weight forces more frequent use of friction brakes.)
A Nissan Leaf weighs about the same as a Prius Prime. Many EVs are way heavier though.
Are you not including the cost of electricity into your estimate? It is cheaper then gas manly because it is not taxed out the wazoo yet.
That is completely false, and I might add, very stupid.
Gas in America is crazy cheap compared to everywhere else due to government subsidy.
America ALREADY USES electricity EVERYWHERE.
Like we use a whole lot of it without the EVs. I mean really just a huge amount, and there is no realistic way to make it cost more for one specific usage.
In short, what you said was dumb and you should feel really bad about it.
It is not dumb and I don’t feel bad for asking a question. I am looking to get an EV and asked some people that have had one for a while about the recharge costs and 2 of 3 had no idea.
Which is why automakers and big oil have fought so hard against bringing down the cost of EVs.
When the price is competitive with ICE vehicles, I think we’ll see rapid adoption.
they already cost $10k outside the united states so the price is already beyond competitive; the real barrier to adoption will be once/if the united states removes the 100% tariff they’ve placed on chinese ev’s.
No the REAL barrier is those Chinese EVs passing US safety standards.
Same
Archive link: https://archive.ph/5QorR
Recently, Mr. Lawrence said, customers have been snapping up used Teslas for a little over $20,000, after applying a $4,000 federal tax credit.
Oh, so you mean used electric cars.
Carmakers including Tesla, Ford, General Motors and Stellantis, the owner of Jeep, have announced plans for electric vehicles that would sell new for as little as $25,000.
Oh, so you mean not yet, but maybe affordable soon.
For fuck’s sake…
Oh, so you mean not yet, but maybe affordable soon.
What do y’all thinking “becoming” means? If they meant they are already affordable, they would have used the term “are.”
The problem is that they have been “becoming” affordable for 25 years, since the EV1.
Becoming would mean in the process of being affordable. Meaning some have already become, meaning there are affordable cars now.
New cars have always been expensive and out of reach for most, which is why the average new car buyer is well into their 50s.
I don’t see how people can logically make an argument about the necessity of switching to EVs for the environment while also demanding that everyone gets a brand new car. Scrapping a bunch of perfectly good cars to build new ones is not going to help out our climate issue.
Why don’t we stop subsidizing fossil fuel companies to the tune of $1Trillion Anually, and instead put all of that money towards subsidizing purchases and further R&D of electric vehicles? Oil and Gas corporations could enjoy the competition of the free market, and we the people could get access to new EVs for under $10k out of pocket - it would be a win-win!
I’m not seeing “cash for clunkers” types of arguments here - I’ve always seen EV adoption as more about market share of new cars rather than share of the entire fleet.
Of course the former leads to the latter, eventually.
I read that the issue with used EV’s is that you eventually need to replace the battery pack which can sometimes cost you as much as the car.
Edit: Seems I was misinformed. Glad to hear that replacing EV batteries is not much of a concern.
I mean, you eventually need to replace the motor in an ICE car, but most people won’t… they’ll buy another vehicle instead. Most EVs lose a minimal amount of range over time… around 10% over 200k miles. Battery replacements are expensive, but not much more than replacing an engine on an ICE vehicle, unless you do all the labor yourself, and no one should be kidding themselves into believing they will actually replace a battery before they’d replace the vehicle… much like a car whose engine shits the bed. And the amount of savings you have in fuel and maintenance offsets the difference significantly, especially if you get to the 200k mark without trading up for a newer vehicle. Not to mention that there are Teslas on the road with over a million miles on them. You may not be as lucky, but 500k without replacing batteries is not uncommon.
I’ve driven a used Tesla for the last 4 years and have 110k miles on it. It’s still humming like the day it came off the line. It’s quieter, faster, has more torque and power, and I get more compliments on it than I ever did on the ford trucks, vw coupes, or Buick sedans I ever drove. I’ve only replaced tires, windshield wipers, wiper fluid, and the 12v battery and haven’t had any maintenance issues. I drive a lot, all over the country, and save around $2k a year in fuel costs compared to when I drove a Buick. I travel all around the country and have few problems finding charging stations (mostly when way off the grid… like Great Basin national park off-the-grid… but still found a charger) and have never been stranded or ran out of mileage on a given drive. A few pigtails and I can charge at any RV park or campground nationwide.
There is far too much misinformation about EVs and concerns with range or charging infrastructure or whatever the oil companies want you to be afraid of, and the savings in fuel costs outweigh any inconveniences I’ve experienced 10 times over.
Take the leap and you’ll never look back. I’ll never buy another ICE vehicle again. It feels like throwing money away.
I get that Elon is a bipolar asshole at times, but the mission to provide the infrastructure for a more sustainable future is what we need and the user experience is far better than reported.
I’ve wanted to get an EV for years now. Just don’t have the infrastructure in my area yet and out of my price range. But I didn’t consider buying used. It’s great to hear that I shouldn’t concern myself with replacing the battery.
I rented a Chevy Bolt once and it came with a charging cable that would plug into a regular 110V outlet. I never tried it, but online it says that chafing method is about 7.5 hours. The Bolt’s battery was 250 miles, so only useful around town if there’s zero infrastructure in the area. But within those parameters, still useful if you can charge at home.
Infrastructure needs depend on how the car is used. I have a basic level 1 charger (120v/15a household outlet) and so far have used public chargers zero times. There has only been one time where I didn’t have enough charge for back to back trips to the next major city over, and had to rely on our second (ICE) car. Could have been avoided with a better charger. I have been hitting ~700 miles per month. One thing to keep in mind is that you just need enough charge to get to your destination and back. Going to the gas station is a big hassle so you are used to always filling up from empty. With the EV, my house is my refill station, so I just connect the cord every time I park. Even after a long trip where the car is near empty, charging slowly for 2 hours is enough for a quick errand. I’ll admit that I would have some charging anxiety if I only had the EV with no backup, but practically speaking it just doesn’t become an issue. Just keep enough charge to make it to the nearest hospital, and get a level 2 charger (240v/>=32amp) for almost 4x the charging rate.
And for the Europeans in the audience, we have 240V and 15A in a normal wall socket for twice the charging speed of our American friends but half the speed of their level 2.
If you have any way to charge at home, it’s a huge money saver and convenience. You’ll only get about 3 miles per hour off a normal 120v wall outlet, so maybe 20-30 miles over night. If you commute more than around 200 miles a week, you’ll have to have supplementary charging once a week or so.
If you can install a 240v charger, you’ll get between 25-35 miles per hour of charge, so you’ll easily get a full charge over night. It’s usually around $500 for the equipment and $500ish for the install, depending on the area, but it makes up for it over time. Imagine never having to factor time in to stop for gas on the way to work in the morning.
If you don’t have access to a wall plug and can’t install your own 240v charger, it may not be the right decision for you. If it is manageable for you, it’ll be a huge convenience and a big money saver.
Bought mine for around 40k 4 years ago and have saved around 8k in fuel costs… but I drive a lot.
If it’s even possible. I’ve personally swapped the main battery pack on a Gen 1 Prius. Not easy, but more tedious than technical. Lifting the assembled unit was a hell of a chore but a coulple strapping dudes managed it. Reconditioned cells are available in a lot of places. I’ve had a Nissan Leaf and would get another one, but even finding a battery, let alone any info on swapping it was pretty much impossible.
The idea that replacing an EV battery costs as much as the car itself is total rubbish. Sure, batteries aren’t cheap, but they’re not going to bankrupt you. Modern EV batteries last a long time, often more than a decade, and are covered by solid warranties. Plus, battery prices are dropping fast as technology gets better. Scaremongering about battery costs is just plain wrong and stops people from going green, which is the last thing we need
demanding that everyone gets a brand new car
That’s ridiculous. Who’s demanding that?
We need to push new EVs, because there are not enough used ones. What do you think a used car starts as? Be happy every time someone buys a new EV, because there’s another used one in 3+ years.
I got a new EV, because I needed a vehicle, and my pattern is to buy new and drive into the ground
Like 16 years ago you could buy a brand new chevy aveo with an msrp of $10,300.
Small econoboxes used to be cheap and affordable.
Regardless of where you fall on EVs or new car pricing, the Aveo was hot garbage and there’s a reason why they only cost $10k. This is the same reason why you don’t see any of them on the road anymore.
True, but at the time you could get a Toyota Echo or a Honda Fit or a Ford Fiesta or even a Nissan Versa which are all small cars that no longer exist.
And I see plenty of them still on the road.
Those were priced higher and comparable to the compacts like the Corolla, Civic, and Sentra.
I think there just wasn’t enough demand since people would rather pay a little more to get a little more car than they need for those rare times when a lot of cargo space was needed. Additionally, tiny CUVs like the RAV4 have increased in popularity quite a bit and still get great fuel economy, further reducing demand for the sub-compacts. These cars were also marketed toward young people like college students who have a harder time affording a new car these days and would rather buy a good used one for much cheaper.
You’re not wrong about any of that, much to my dismay. I was just pointing out that those cars did exist and car companies can make them. The market and regulatory conditions just don’t make it profitable.
If most of the people buying cars are in their 60s they’re going to want economic cars with high seats because their knees and backs can’t take getting into something lower. (I can say that because my knees and back already hurt, but I’m too stubborn to stop driving my compact manual car.)
There were a lot of good ones on the road that were sub $14 that still exist and are good for 200,000+ miles. I just pointed out one of the absolute cheapest.
Oh, so you mean not yet, but maybe affordable soon.
For fuck’s sake…
i had the same feeling while knowing that people outside the united states can get brand new ev’s for $10k today.
You’re not wrong, but in fairness the headline says EVs are becoming affordable, not that they are affordable.
You’re not wrong, but in fairness the headline says EVs are becoming affordable, not that they are affordable.
he’s right; brand new ev’s go for about $10k outside the unites states; they’re already affordable but big tariffs are being employed to discourage buying them.
curiously, even the 100% american tariff still makes these ev’s more affordable than anything in that article and i’m wondering what’s going to happen once they start building them in mexico (ie nafta).
They don’t in Australia they’re still 50k min. We give massive subsidies to fossil fuel companies too
they’re selling out so fast that australia hasn’t gotten many yet.
interestingly australia might be the only western country to get them since they have a free trade agreement with china while the united states and europe are putting extremely hefty tariffs on them to protect their own respective automotive industries.
No we also have massive tariffs on them too hence the 60k price tag. AUSTRALIA IS OWNED BY BIG OIL.
And of course Tesla’s are cheap used, they are an absolute train-wreck in the quality control department.
Idk wtf any sensible person would willingly buy a new car unless there was no other option.
I don’t know. I’ve never had a new car.
Not only that, most of those cars coming available are from Hertz — they’re rental cars. But not just any rental cars… most are from Hertz’s Uber fleet.
So these are EVs with over 100,000 miles on them, worn out back seats and blistered rear armrests that have been driven by employees using a fleet lease vehicle. And migrating the cars’ software ownership to an unlocked non-fleet private owner state has proven to be… difficult.
fuck you NYT, define affordable… Nope, that’s not affordable.
They implicity, but clearly, define it: the same price as gasoline cars.
Also, Become != Are. It even notes, right in the blurb there, that they’re getting there, not that they are there.
Nope, that’s not affordable.
i had the same thought and i’m also thinking that i’m going to keep my 15 year old car until it dies in the hopes that i can get those brand new $10k ev’s that people outside the united states can get right now.
Stuff like this is starting to make its way into automotive youtubers feeds now. I just saw one where he picked up a Model S P85D for like $10k or something crazy because it was “insurance totaled”. The issue was they’d let the battery die in the lot and some idiots didn’t think to charge it.
But think about the american car makers that produce a lot of their stuff abroad anyways! Who’s going to stuff their pockets?? God forbid you get cheap chinese EVs!
Recently, Mr. Lawrence said, customers have been snapping up used Teslas for a little over $20,000, after applying a $4,000 federal tax credit.
3rd sentence?
I’ll share the rest because the paywall:
Carmakers including Tesla, Ford, General Motors and Stellantis, the owner of Jeep, have announced plans for electric vehicles that would sell new for as little as $25,000.
More than half of the used electric vehicles on the market sell for less than $30,000, according to Recurrent, a research firm that focuses on the used E.V. market.
Idk, you can get a used Tesla for like $25k now.
I don’t want a used Tesla, though.
Be careful with those, chances are it’s an old fleet vehicle and those are not always the most well taken care of.
you can buy a brand new one for $10k outside the united states
But can they make them much much bigger? I hope so! It worked for ICE cars right? Just make them as big as a house and watch every day as they park north, south, east and west bound on the various freeways for the night.
Canionero!
I mean, the Kia EV9 seems pretty big. But I think you mean Ford Excursion big… and man… GM has a hummer of a truck for you. Also, no one is buying it.
They’re already fucking huge. Every EV in the US is an SUV or pickup. You want a small electric commuter in 2024, your only option is an ebike.
Most of those ‘SUVs’ are what we used to would call ‘station wagon’ or ‘compact wagon’.
Ioniq 5, Kia EV6, Mach-E, Model 3, Lyriq, and Blazer EV I would say aren’t particularly ‘big’ but all are ‘SUV’. You have Model 3 which is not even ‘technically’ an SUV. You also have the Leaf, the Niro EV, the Mini Cooper SE, which are all relatively smaller.
The models that are typical ‘large’ SUVs are relatively few. The EV9, the Rivian, maybe the Model X are the ones off the top of my head that are “Ford Explorer” big or larger. Yes the pickup trucks are blighted by the same “cosplay as a big rig” design language inflicted on the ICE pickups, except for CyberTruck which somehow managed to be even worse.
Maybe these cars don’t classify as SUVs by some metric, but they are definitely not small. Every vehicle in the US has gotten bigger in the last decade and EVs are no exception.
Yeah, because now they have to double as house if you lose your job
The Leaf is a reasonable size, the Ioniq 6 as well I think.
I drive a Leaf. I wish it was much smaller.
Well, there is the mini Cooper, but if you are considering the leaf a big SUV, that’s hardly “big American” and would fit in with most four door vehicles for decades globally, certainly anything with four doors that could pass collision and pedestrian safety standards today… to get smaller you have to go down to the little two door things, and for most people those are too impractical as a daily driver.
When I want smaller than my ⚡🚗🍃 Leaf, I ride my ⚡🏍️ Metacycle or my ⚡🛵 niu N-GT.
Seriously, I just want an EV Sportscar. Give me something Z car sized, RWD and no extras.
EV Miata please. With 4 wheel drive and a power hard top convertible.
I would love this so much… with the RF body cuz I think it looks sexier. Too bad Mazda is basically just anti-ev or rebadging other people’s hybrid platforms.
The MG cyberster seems promising. I’m drivng the MG4 and I rely like the car.
Sure… great… I’m in the states though, so… 🤷
RWD is silly on an EV. You can have four motors, one for each wheel, which will give you torque vectoring and other features. Trust me, additional Gs in turns are way more fun than skids.
Sports cars are silly. I know what I want. And it’s a overpowered RWD sports car.
EDIT to add stuff… I already have an AWD ev, and a FWD EV. The FWD is terrible, not only does the high torque overpower the low rolling resistance tires, but… just like an F1 car is crazy over powered, I want appropriate digital nannies, fat tires and all the stuff I had with my previous sports cars and motorcycles.
Regular AWD is not the same as EV AWD with independent motors. Four motors also allow you to turn your car into either RWD or FWD with a press of a button, but you’ll have half the power ofc.
Kia ev6 gt. Seriously, go drive one. And even better than rwd, it’s AWD (if you actually care about performance more than burnouts)
I have, and the Ioniq 5 N… they are great… I’m glad they exist, but not what I want.
EDIT: My friend has a bright red Model S plaid, and it was one of the most insane things I’ve ever driven. But being honest with you, The Model 3 Performance was more fun. Which is how I got to this point. Give me a 2-door, rwd over powered sports car. Please and thank you.
That’s not even close to true. Why do you enjoy lying so much?
Literally what I’m waiting for. I live alone, I have a 5km commute with crappy public transport. Too far to walk, bike in winter sucks, so some closed space for one or two people that can transport a bit of groceries is the largest I want. Smart sized, but affordable please.
Polestar 2, Tesla Model 3, and Ioniq 6 are all sedans.
The fact that VW’s ID Buzz doesn’t come with a Westfalia trim is a travesty.
Im legit waiting for the Renault Master electric van for my next campervan build project.
Good, they should be far cheaper than gasoline cars. America is losing to China when it comes to EVs, and many other things.
…and I couldn’t be happier about it. The age of American/European imperialism is coming to an end after centuries of suffering imposed on poorer nations. Not that I have high hopes for China or anything, but it’s HARD to do worse than US or Western Europe…
If you think its hard to do worse, you haven been paying attention to China
Ok Tankie, it’s past your bedtime.
Over 20k used, meanwhile China’s getting literally half the price new. But dems and republicans have joined hands in stopping this boon for the climate.
Yeah when you use literal slaves instead of union labour, costs are down. I’m not willing to trade my humanity to save a few dollars and a debatable improvement to the climate disaster (I doubt the manufacture and extraction practices in China are anything approaching clean).
IMO this is a rare case of Washington doing the right thing.
Edit For the benefit of anyone at risk of being fooled by authoritarian propaganda, there is a plethora of evidence of slave labour used throughout the Chinese economy, from uyghur muslims to foxcons indentured workers. It’s prevelent through the supply chain for many, many industries, and that alone warrants discentives on imports until such time as these practices end.
To suggest that individual businesses, who are built within this system, may be somehow operating outside of it is clearly absurd, however it’s simply not possible for a layman to unpack and debate the supply chains and business practices hidden behind the bamboo curtain.
The discourse below is an example of how bad faith arguments can create doubt, by employing strawman arguments and ignoring actual points raised to create the appearance of being reasonable by hiding behind “citation needed” type arguments. If you read through it, you’ll see that the propagandist doesn’t once engage in anything I’ve actually said - this is intentional, they do not want to be in a position where any claim they make can be contested, nor do they actually want to directly contest any claim I’ve made. Rather they only want to sow doubt in what I’m saying, which takes considerably more effort to discredit than any actual claim.
Need a source for these EV factories using slave labor.
And by all means lets debate on the climate impact of these vehicles, what parts are you saying are a problem? While Americas been manufacturing more and more combustion trucks and SUVs, China has been leaving us in the green tech dust, ramping up renewable energy and EV production.
Google forced labour in China yourself, it isn’t my responsibility to provide resources to those choosing wilful ignorance or living under a rock when there’s masses of well documented human rights violations and masses of evidence documenting appallingly negligent mining and manufacturing practices.
Yes, its your claim its your responsibility. Show me the forced labour at the BYD facilities producing the $11k Seagull im talking about. Show me their negligent manufacturing practices.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”
Weird how tankies and anti-semites use the same tricks to push their agenda.
Why should anyone believe claims with a refusal to back them up?
You strawmanned about the BYD factory, which I never mentioned, clearly your debating in bad faith. The use of ughur slave labour throughout the economy, or indentured workers at places like foxcon is better documented than the recent conviction of Donald Trump. I have no more reason to cite sources for this than a comment referencing the earth being round or Ukraine being at war.
The only possible way to be ignorant of these facts is by choice. I don’t care if people who choose ignorance refute my claims, no evidence I could provide would change that anyway and again, it isn’t my responsibility to deprogram anyone.
I am certainly not making scientific claims in an academic paper or publishing breaking news with an obligation to cite sources, I’m providing commentary on that which has already been well documented.
Chinese EVs subsidized with prison labor and CCP funds to undercut the market and stagnate long-term innovation, what a boon to humanity!
Those damn Chinese prisoners working in advanced technological factories.
China investing in their EV companies is a good thing. Undercut the absolute fuck out of this overpriced gas guzzling SUV market.
The Chinese cars that are half price don’t include any safety features, have a theoretical top speed of 80 mph, and a battery range of 100 miles. Those ones would never make it to the US even without tariffs.
Where in America can you legally drive over 80mph?
(1) My shitbox 2006 Honda can go up to 120mph stock. They engineer cars to go twice their typical operating speed so the mechanical parts are not overstressed during normal operation. Imagine if you were trying to pass on the highway at 80 and your car literally tore itself apart.
(2) South Dakota
Slow the hell down
Texas, actually. Some sections of highway are 85 mph.
yeah, but then you’d have to live in texas. lol
i tried it for 5 years and no thank you!
Big state need big speed for small travel.
Sounds perfect for my needs.
The Chinese cars that are half price don’t include any safety features, have a theoretical top speed of 80 mph
I had an s10 like that.
I realize this isn’t why you mentioned the range of those vehicles, but I like to point out where I can that only a single digit percentage of all driven trips are more than fifty miles.
More to the point of the thread, if people could get over this reason for not buying electric, there could be much cheaper options by halving the battery capacities in these vehicles. Of course that would mean the manufacturers would have to make them, which seems unlikely. Worthwhile to point out though I think.
I am not saying it is right, but many people online demand that their EV be able to go much more than 200 miles/charge. I am not sure if that is a majority opinion or just a very vocal minority.
Yes it includes safety features, and 80 is plenty
There is currently a bizarre anomaly in the market due to several massive rental car companies dumping their rolling stock. The tech isn’t yet there and there are a lot of interesting issues with depreciation.
What issues with depreciation? Can you list actual models and prices to back your claim because it seems like most people are bitching about the high prices of EVs.
Can you list actual models and prices to back your claim because it seems like most people are bitching about the high prices of EVs.
I’m a BEV advocate, but even this is an easy one. In 2022 a Tesla Model 3 LR cost $52k while you can get the exact same car new today for $47k. This is even just MSRP. That $47k car is even $7500 cheaper for most people.
Tesla Model Y LR from the same year, 2022, is even more dramatic. It was $67k and now costs $49k.
That’s not depreciation that’s just a response to the highest interest rates we’ve seen in 20+ years and dwindling sales numbers.
This is no different than the monthly sales we used to see on every car prior to COVID but this was somewhat obscured by the nature of the dealership model and having to haggle on the actual price of the car.
That’s not depreciation that’s just a response to the highest interest rates we’ve seen in 20+ years and dwindling sales numbers.
Of course its depreciation. Its the very definition of depreciation. An asset was worth more at a point in the past than it is today. The reason for the value loss is irrelevant.
The definition of depreciation is:
a reduction in the value of an asset with the passage of time, due in particular to wear and tear.
The MSRP going down isn’t depreciation as you’re referring to a brand new item that you haven’t even purchased and hasn’t been used.
Prices shot way up during COVID and now they’re coming back to reality in response to higher interest rates and slowing sales across the entire automotive market, not just with EVs. Housing prices have come down too but again that doesn’t mean depreciation, it’s just a response to interest rates being 2-3x higher than they were just a couple of years ago and sale prices adjusting accordingly (you’re still paying more overall with interest).
The context here is that “people are concerned about depreciation,” but why would people be concerned that they’re able to buy these cars new at a slightly cheaper price to begin with? Most people prefer to pay as little as possible for things, which is the whole point of companies having a sale on their products.
The definition of depreciation is:
a reduction in the value of an asset with the passage of time, due in particular to wear and tear.
Look at the first half of that sentence. Thats the same idea I posted with my definition:
" Its the very definition of depreciation. An asset was worth more at a point in the past than it is today."
You’re getting hung up on the “wear and tear” thing because that’s a regular way that cars lose value over time, but its not the only way. A Picasso painting continues to slowly deteriorate over time but its value continues to go up because there is a market for people wanting his paintings. This would be an “appreciated asset” even though it still gets wear and tear.
The context here is that “people are concerned about depreciation,” but why would people be concerned that they’re able to buy these cars new at a slightly cheaper price to begin with?
The context here is that “people are concerned about depreciation,” but why would people be concerned that they’re able to buy these cars new at a slightly cheaper price to begin with?
Because many people buy cars with the expectation of only owning them for a couple of years and then selling them for something newer. If the value of their EV dropped by 50% in two years of ownership instead of dropping perhaps 20% of specific ICE cars, the they would be concerned about the depreciation. Even people that don’t sell so quickly want an asset that retains its value in case it gets totaled (and they need to buy a new replacement) or in case they need to sell it for emergency liquidity.
Okay assuming we do go with your definition, the 2019 Model 3 LR was $36,000, meaning they’ve appreciated by $11,000 over the last 5 years. Once again this disproves your point.
The 2022 numbers you picked were the absolute peak of COVID era pricing, but they’re still selling for more than they used to, meaning they aren’t depreciating at all.
I don’t really see this as a bad thing if we want people with lower incomes to get off ICE cars, although I can see how people who paid those prices would be annoyed. Expecting cars to hold their value or depreciate slowly seems overly optimistic in general, as they are inherently depreciating assets and should never be seen as investments.
What about electric car technology “isn’t yet there?”
My main two concerns are battery replacement (and affordability of replacements including a third party market for compatible parts) and battery restoration/recovery. Alternatively, if we could massively increase battery life span (not a single charge - but how many charge/discharge cycles they can survive) that might also allay my fears - but I think the first one is better.
I’ve always driven gasoline vehicles until repairs are more expensive than replacement, which has meant 10-15 years. At that point they’re worth almost nothing, which also means I don’t need to get too worked up about getting a good deal.
Average battery life span used to be shorter due to early leaf’s not having active cooling
I hope EVs are similar, and read stories online about Tesla batteries lasting 12-15 years. Assuming that pans out, EVs are already no different from gasoline vehicles.
I’ll let you know in 15 years
So tired of hearing about battery replacement as if having a $10,000 thing that breaks in your car after 10 years is somehow unique to EVs. Ask Chrysler owners how many transmissions they’ve put in their car, or Subaru owners how many engines they’ve put in theirs. I bet the average battery pack is lasting far longer than either of those.
Why do you think the cyclic life of current or 10 year old batteries is not already good enough? Do you know how often they fail? How much they degrade after 10 years?
The US DoE puts EV battery half-life at 8-12 years for most current vehicles. That’s insanely short compared to ICE.
Yeah, I can’t do that. As little as I drive, they would last longer, but still. I’ll be retired or close enough in 12-years, won’t be able to afford a fresh battery. My ICE convertible and truck are 02 and 04 models and run fine.
Knowing there’s a hard limit on usage, with a wildly expensive repair at the end, that’s tough to swallow. I can keep my 04 F150 running forever. (For certain values of forever.)
It’s not a hard limit, it’s a variable capacity reduction over a decade that estimates a maximum 50% reduction in range, similar to the lost efficiency of an ICE engine as the tubes , pipes and cases erode.
You add in the far lower fuel/repair/ maintenance costs and that optional new battery is costing you less than you’re paying in gasoline, oil changes or other basic and common maintenance.
I drove Camry for 15 years with minimal repairs and after 180k miles I was still getting roughly the same mpg and range as when it was new. It was still going fine when I got rid of it becuae our vehicle needs changed, but even if it hadn’t a complete engine rebuild at 300k (if needed) would only be a few thousand dollars or less.
Working down to half the range over a decade and then needing a very expensive repalacement battery is not comparable in any way. I really hope the battery tech keeps improving.
Are they all crossovers or trucks with a massive touchscreen and spyware?
Some US cars have EULAs that include you if you walk past the car.
You know in 2021 I thought that the MSM was deliberately ignoring the issues with EVs and promoting overly rosy timelines as part of a political agenda.
After seeing the massive amount of FUD they published about EVs over the past year, I think they are just bad at their jobs.
It feels like the media covers EVs based on vibes versus doing actual research. As a result they’ve consistently publish articles that are either borderline nonsense hopium or complete doomerism.
IMO I still think hybrids will be instrumental tech over the next decade. Those 300 mile EVs often get much worse range in weather conditions that are common in many parts of the country. It’s also simply going to take considerable time for fast charging infrastructure to become ubiquitous enough to truly address range anxiety.
IMO I still think hybrids will be instrumental tech over the next decade. Those 300 mile EVs often get much worse range in weather conditions that are common in many parts of the country. It’s also simply going to take considerable time for fast charging infrastructure to become ubiquitous enough to truly address range anxiety.
People waaaay overestimate how much they drive. The average person drives about 30 miles per day. 99.5% of trips are under 100 miles. Cold weather can drop the range by about 25%. That is still perfectly fine for 99.5% of trips. You know what country also has pretty cold weather? Norway. They also happen to be the country with the highest percentage of EVs sold.
Fast charging is only needed for the extremely rare occasion that you are traveling over 250 miles. Heck, even a level 1 charger is fine for the majority of people most of the time. And the fast charge network is built out pretty decently already so that you are almost certainly within range of one.
There are absolutely some issues with EVs though. It certainly is not all sunshine and rainbows. While a level 1 charger is perfectly fine for most people, many do not even have that. Most apartment buildings do not have outlets you can use in your parking spot. That is a pretty large chunk of the population that would have to rely on fast chargers. That is a lot pricier.
And while you may be within range of a fast charger, you might not be by one that works. A good third of Electrify America’s don’t work. Some that do, do not give you the full speed.
Charging speed still does suck for road trips. Sure, an Ioniq can charge to 80% within 20 minutes but that is with a station that can push 350 kW which are pretty damn rare.
Companies also seem to want to make EVs futuristic looking with zero knobs and also lock you into their ecosystem to harvest your data. They claim it is to help you more accurately calculate range and to be able to find a charger. That’s horseshit. Just because something is battery powered does not mean it needs that shit. It would be one thing if they had competent software engineers but they largely don’t.
They write articles for people worried about 300 miles ranges who drive 40 miles a day the vast, vast majority of days.
Is it any wonder the coverage is awful?
I get what you’re saying but yeah it is surprising. It would be one thing if their coverage was bad as in the sense the author doesn’t do legwork or add anything of value when compared to some YouTuber. However their coverage feels like it’s written by someone who doesn’t particularly like cars and doesn’t really follow this stuff outside of when their editor assigns it to them.
How frequently would someone need to make a 200+ round trip in lousy weather that cuts into the range for them to have a valid reason? Once a month? Every two weeks?
What about people that go to temote areas that don’t even have gas stations? How often do they need to go?
I have a car that I mostly use for just trips around town. But once or sometimes twice a year, I go on a thousand-kilometer-or-so trip to visit some relatives. Assuming for whatever reason that this wouldn’t work with an EV, you can say “well that’s one trip a year you won’t be able to go on.”
But that trip is important to me. It’d be a huge negative not being able to do that, or a really big expense to rent a car capable of the trip. I wouldn’t switch exclusively to an EV if it wasn’t able to make that trip, because I have a car that can do it right now.
It’s a real concern.
Assuming for whatever reason that this wouldn’t work with an EV, you can say “well that’s one trip a year you won’t be able to go on.”
More realistically, you should be instead told “well, that’s one trip you’ll be making in a rental ICE car instead”.
You’d still come out on top overall, I’m pretty sure.
Well I’m not sure and I’m the one with the wallet, so I’m staying with my existing car.
Besides, another thing that helps the environment is not buying new cars when one doesn’t need to.
You could even argue for the rental when there’s not an EV in the mix. Maybe I have an older car where reliability is questionable. I’m more willing to risk a breakdown at home where I have options and resources, than at a distant destination or where it affects travel plans. Maybe I have an econobox for cheap local transport, but comfort is more important when looking at a long drive. Maybe I have good reason to drive a Pickup locally, but that would not be good for a trip.
In terms of CO2 emissions, getting as many ICE vehicles of the road as possible is best. Depending on your electrical power source, an EV can beat out an ICE within 30k km. On the shittier end, if your power comes from coal, it is closer to 125k km.
Doubt it. Renting a car is a fucking rip off.
for a once a year trip I would just rent. Same reason why you don’t need to buy a truck because just in case you need to move, you jsut rent a U-haul for that occasion.
The only time that trip is going to be an issue is if you are going 250-300miles away from an interstate. Even then, a few pigtails and you can charge at any campground or RV park nationwide. Charging is a lot less of an issue than the media wants you to believe. I’ve been traveling around the country in an ev without problems for 30k miles. Pull up a map of just Tesla Superchargers and you’ll see a huge amount of roadtrip coverage… and that isn’t bringing in all of the other manufacturers charging networks or the rv/campground charging possibilities.
I spend 100% of the trip more than 300 miles away from an interstate. I’m Canadian.
Charging duration is also an issue. The annual trip generally takes me 12-13 hours. So if you add significant charging time that pushes it long enough that I wouldn’t feel comfortable doing the whole trip in one day any more.
Charging duration at fast chargers is not that much of an issue for the most part. You’ll be able to drive for for hours and you will likely want to stop for a bit anyway.
The lack of chargers where you would be is definitely an issue though. Renting an ICE would make sense then and you would almost certainly save money overall with that combo. In my area, an EV would save $1000-2000 USD for fuel costs each year (small hybrid on the low range and a crossover on the higher end). Given gas prices in Canada, I would have to imagine the savings are even higher for you.
I think they are just bad at their jobs.
There are a huge number of aspired investigative journalists who weren’t good enough, and ended up writing niche interest pieces for hobbyist publications they don’t actually care much about. This was the reason there was such a commotion over game’s journalism around 2015, but the same problems exist elsewhere too.
I’ve had a used ev for 4 years and have about 110k miles on the battery. I drove for years in Houston, with 110 degree summers and recently drove a season in Winter Park in the -10 to 0 degree weather for the season and didn’t have any issues with range or charging. You do notice minor differences, but nothing is a surprise and nothing is unmanageable. There is a lot more FUD out there than is warranted from actual performance.
While I buy the logic of a hybrid, I think they should have been instrumental tech over the last decade. Where were all these legacy manufacturers when Toyota had proven technology with high sales? Legacy manufacturers were regressive then, and are regressive now that EVs are ready to take over
Our infrastructure also needs upgrades to support electric vehicles. For example, you literally can’t get one unless you have a garage or driveway, which many people- especially those who don’t have the luxury of buying a house, don’t have. If your only option is dealing with street parking good luck.
I have a friend in exactly this situation. He just goes to a nearby supercharger every week. It’s not that unreasonable
Not really a requirement to charge at home, many cities have fast chargers at grocery stores so you can charge while you shop. This still needs to be expanded yes, but there are alternatives to home charging. It’s still the best and most convenient option if you have the option though.
I have chargers at work. If I wanted do fight my way through the line, I could completely charge for free while working. Hopefully more companies offer that
Bringing down the dealership price means fuck all if they’re worthless on the second hand market, unless there’s some miracle tech that prevents the battery capacity from dropping like a lead balloon internal combustion engines are never going away. A car from the 50s can still travel the same distance on a full tank but an electric car from the early 2010s can barely get around a car park on a full charge.
Hydrogen is the way to go, it can be created using clean energy and it’s exhaust tends to be cleaner than the air it took in.
Toyota managed to run an engine from the 80s on high pressure hydrogen with barely any alterations and there have been trials where mains gas in the uk has been replaced with hydrogen. We’re so close to having the access required to transition to hydrogen but there’s only one or two models that can use it rn.
I’ll take your hydrogen and raise you trains and public transit.
Building up our modern railed transit network and expanding people powered transit together is the only solution we have that’s been demonstrably successful for cities in the long term.
because hydrogen is a storage problem. Toyota is waiting and expecting government to build the infrastructure when its supposed to be pushing for the interest in it themselves.
the major reason why EVs won was the Tesla charging network, and unless Toyota is commited to investing in the equivalent to it, its not going anywhere. the biggest reason is EVs being able to be charged at home, something the current infrastructure of hydrogen lacks.
car from the 50s can still travel the same distance on a full tank
How much have you spent in maintenance over the last 70 years to even keep it running?
an electric car from the early 2010s can barely get around a car park
Not even remotely true.
Assuming you need a new battery every 10 years or so considering that’s their usual lifespan you’re looking at spending $70,000-$140,000 at 10,000 - 20,000 per battery according to a quick Google search. Do you really think that someone is spending $2,000 a year just making sure a tiny roadster that was designed to be repaired with a spanner on a driveway can run?
I read a report that Model 3 LFPs were down to around $7k. CATL claims te be under $5k this year for a brand new pack good for about a 200 mile range. Analysts predict under $3k for that pack in 2025. This is even ignoring the potential to remanufacture an existing pack, reusing the parts of the packs that don’t degrade, and potentially reclaiming some value for recycling the cells. LFPs also have more durability, so likely to be a 15 year workable lifespan for most drivers.
This is a rapidly evolving situation, with prices going down dramatically for battery. If it lands at less than $5k for a 15 year maintenance item, then that’s even less than I spent keeping my 15 year old Acura in working order toward the end, ignoring the extra costs I had to spend on the gas compared to the EV charging. About half the gas cars I’ve owned have been a money pit for maintenance, and the other half haven’t been super cheap either. The EVs have been much lower maintenance, though admittedly the maintenance cost will be high years down the line, but I wager in aggregate it’ll be cheaper than the maintenance costs of my traditional cars have been.
Again, not true.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a31875141/electric-car-battery-life/
If the battery is at less than 70% at 8 years, they’ll replace it free. My 10 year old Volt is still doing close enough to what it was new that I can’t tell the difference. It’s not like the battery just goes poof and turns into smoke after 10 years.
A tiny roadster from the 50s is what, an MG, Fiat, maybe a Triumph? Any one of them are probably spending more time getting repaired than actually driving.
Keeping a car from the 50s running today isn’t just tightening a bolt here and there anymore. Even sourcing the parts is likely going to be non-trivial at this point.
Hydrogen all day…there’s people who converted their pickups on YouTube that I saw like 10 years ago…just a guy in his driveway. Zero reason why companies haven’t done this yet other then sheer ignorance or greed from oil, or both.
I personally don’t trust EVs to fix anything…it just takes control away from end user and makes 2nd hand market almost nonexistent
Fuck the NY times
Hell yeah, bro. You are revolutionary.
You couldn’t pay me to switch to an EV.
