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I’m cool with that, but folks should also remember this:
yeah I’m forever voting blue no matter who. The republican candidate will always be a fascist. It will never end with Trump. It’s going to be fascist vs not fascist blue vote and I will eat whatever shit the blue vote shits out. More cops? I’m all for it, not a fascist dictator. Support Israel? Fine with me, not a fascist dictator. It sucks but that’s just America now for the next thousand or so years, fascism or something else. Better hope the something else isn’t closer to fascism than before or else you’re fucked.
If the Dems keep winning the Republicans will have to slide left. It happened in the UK with Labour (unfortunately in the opposite direction).
When that happens, and Trump is not literally attempting to end democracy using project 2025, the plan of strong-arming the dem candidate into being more left is plenty feasible, and the risks are less dire.
It happened in the UK with Labour (unfortunately in the opposite direction)
This happened after Labour’s entrenched power groups vigorously sabotaged Corbyn. Corbyn committed a somewhat serious blunder during Brexit, but he still had Labour well in the direction of defeating the Tories, and that might have happened earlier if his most spiteful opponents hadn’t been inside his own party.
Thats not going to happen. The small handful of swing states will dictate a pattern of both parties steadily and we’ll just keep going lower. Im sorry but there’s zero chance the US doesn’t elect enough republicans for them to be forced to change policy. They’re making gains.
Maybe I’m just risk averse, but handing your country over to a fascist dictator sounds like the wrong solution.
I’m not saying to stop pressuring Biden in other ways, just not the borderline suicidal ones
Way too much sense. We’re gonna have to drown this out with a gallon of troll farm.
Ah yes, that time several years ago when the dems won last election, the republicans responded by “sliding left”. When the dems win 2024 the republicans will also be very civilized and non violent and slide even further left. Non-whites and LGBT people everywhere in America will be safer the night Joe Biden is elected than the night before, you heard it here from HauntedCupcake first!
You mostly don’t see it because they win inconsistently by a narrow margin. It would totally happen if the republicans weren’t so popular and the Dems kept winning. Hence the hypothetical.
The main issue is convincing the populace, but my point is more that the US has a way out of fascism, the public just need to recognise and want it
You acknowledge that you’re voting for a slightly slower descent into fascism but that you’ll continue to do so?
As opposed to a faster descent? Yes absolutely.
So your solution to avoiding fascism is to never lose an election?
My solution is to exercise my right to vote.
Yes, by all means, exercise your right to vote as you see fit. But if the only way we can avoid fascism is by never losing an election, shouldn’t we be seeking better ideas and stronger protections from fascism now before that plan fails?
If you don’t vote you’re not a part of the conversation. You obviously don’t have any grasp on how the election process works anyways, so why are you even keyboard warrioring this at all?
Go back to playing music, Jesse.
Yes we should definitely be looking at longer-term, better solutions. However, the election is in less than five months. So please propose a solution or stop naysaying without any alternative.
You have a good point. Obviously we should vote for it to happen faster rather than try to use the slow descent to fix things.
Anyone that wants to accelerate things has never lived in the kind of world that they’re advocating for.
I had a teacher in school that was a Bosnian Muslim during the genocide of the Balkan wars. She, her older brother, and her mom made it out. I never heard her talk about her dad, so I don’t think that he did. She and her older brother would practice their drawing by the light of burning tires. The eventually escaped to England, and then got asylum in the US.
That’s what we’re trying to avoid.
I wonder how many accelerationists around here are fascists/explodingheads users. Fascists don’t fear the prospect of pretending to be something they aren’t if it means furthering their agenda.
They’re not afraid of posing as, say, a disenfranchised, discouraged and disillusioned left-winger who believes both sides are bad and there’s no future except revolution.
They’re not afraid to post about how “Genocide Joe” is funding genocide in Gaza while neglecting to point out how “Totalitarian Trump” would send B-52s to carpet bomb Gaza and the West Bank until nothing is left.
They’re not afraid to point out how red states are still succeeding in trampling over LGBT rights under Biden while also ignoring how Trump would almost certainly push for that nation-wide.
They’ll cry about our current supreme court justices while ignoring that Trump was the one who put those justices in power to begin with.
To be clear, I think the US is pretty far from saving and that it’ll take a miracle to save this country from ruin. However, I’d rather see the country collapse slowly and in a relatively controlled manner that gives people time to prepare for its demise; while also giving people time to attempt to patch and fix the holes.
Revolution is high risk, high reward; if the left-wing wins, then you might get the socialist utopia you’ve always dreamed of. However, what if the right-wing wins? Yanno, the people with the majority of privately owned guns in the US. What if they win?
A Trump presidency means your leftist revolution against a fascist government will almost certainly be opposed by both rednecks and the US military.
However, if the fascists revolt during a Biden presidency, then the military will likely be backing you.
In the event of armed revolution, the president, whether it’s Biden or Trump, will use the military to protect and reinforce their power. With Trump, opposition to his power will be coming from the left, so that’s who the military will target. With Biden, the opposition will come from the right, and so the military will target them instead.
Of course, that doesn’t mean you’ll get the leftist utopia you’ve always dreamed, but at least you’ll remove a lot of fascists from the equation. Removing those fascists means it’ll be easier for the country to swing to the left and stay there. It won’t happen overnight, but the result would likely be a government far more stable than if you tried to burn everything down and start over from scratch.
The reason why I say all this is because I feel that we are closing in on a revolution. Something is about to snap, and it will happen either during the elections or soon after. As such, you really, really don’t want Trump, because Trump means you’ll be fighting against the biggest, most well-funded and technologically equipped military in the world.
The air is tense and electric, filled with gasoline fumes and heated by our exhaust. The masses are shuffling to and from their workplaces, burned-out and overworked. They are struggling to afford rent, afford food, afford sleep and water. Static electricity is building on their shuffling bodies, and soon a spark will leap from an outstretched finger, igniting the air and bathing the US in fire.
I hope I’m wrong.
I agree. Although I’m not as pessimistic as you are, I truly believe that the US can become a socialist country, I’m young though 😅
I hadn’t considered some right wing bigots would be on here and was arguing with ppl. Thx! :)
Yeah, I’ll admit that I’m pretty jaded and cynical when it comes to politics and the future of humanity. I’m not all that old either, but I’m old enough to remember how it seemed like life was getting better until Trump took office, and how much the US tumbled as a result.
I’m old enough to remember when being left or right wing was a debate and not a fight between competing “truths”; and how the US left and right wing were sometimes willing to compromise on issues instead of fighting a culture war where they try and see how badly they can fuck up the US and still successfully blame the other party.
I’m old enough to remember when people typically trusted the news and science; and conspiracy theorists were amusing nutjobs at best, harmless annoyances at worst.
I’m old enough to remember when the idea of a Christian theocracy in the US was considered insane by anyone except the most extreme conservatives; while militias were something only domestic terrorists and the most extreme political radicals supported.
And I’m honestly, not that old. I just… I’ve watched the downward spiral and it seems like no one in power actually wants to stop it, which is why I’ve become so jaded and cynical. It’s why I think revolution is coming, and I’m just hoping that the political ideology I’m aligned with won’t be forced into fighting a losing war against the US military.
That’s why I think people should support Biden. No, he’s not a good person, and I don’t think he honestly has the best interests of America and the rest of the world in mind. Sure, he’s tried to do some good things like (unsuccessfully) forgiving student loans multiple times and showing support for America’s unions, however he’s still enabling Israel’s genocide and he’s still beholden to the corporations that fund his party (which means he’ll avoid real changes whenever possible). Yet, if Biden gets elected and the American right-wing revolts (I’m convinced they’ll try), then the US military will be fighting them, not us. If Trump gets elected then there may not even be a chance for revolution before cops start kicking people’s doors down.
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I would agree with you, but who’s working on fixing things? It’s looking close this time, and the historical pattern is that the Presidency flips parties when an incumbent can’t run. What’s the plan so we can ensure that a GQP authoritarian doesn’t win in 2028? This was the talking point in 2020, and very little happened; Biden’s AG even waited almost 3 years to appoint a special counsel, only after being buffaloed into it by the House January 6th committee, virtually ensuring that there trial will be delayed until after the election. And there’s still no action whatsoever to hold Bush administration officials accountable.
The plan is delay fascism while building networks for a communist revolution.
Or just GTFO of the country if you’re queer/nonwhite/disabled, and buy as much time as possible for the refugees to escape.
I’ve asked the question “what’s the plan to stop fascism in 2028?” several times now, with no other response, so I guess the answer is, “pull off a communist revolution in just 4 years.”
You know what is definitely not fixing it? Reassuring the Dems at every step that they will have your vote no matter what, as long as they are only slightly better than the Reps. Actually it is directly encouraging them to be at their possible worst.
Think of politicians as children and you as their parent. Do you think “reaffirm your child that no matter what it does, it will always get its favorite dessert” is a good parenting strategy? You raise egocentric psychopaths this way and this is exactly what you are getting as politicians.
That’s what the primary is for.
If you have a dem that no longer aligns with your interests, you vote them out during the primary.
But then you show up during the general, hold your nose, and vote Democrat.
Want to know why?
Because the Republicans will vote Republican no matter what and we’ve unfortunately pushed our democracy to the point where we either vote for the somewhat okay guy or the guy that will bite your face off.
Yes, the dnc money machine is definitely allowing that. /s
I’m not noticing any part of “I’ll accept anything” that’s particularly conducive to fixing things
It is less than five months to the election. Please provide us with an alternative. Happy to hear you out. If you don’t have one then cool, no harm no foul and I’ll be voting Biden in November.
Floor’s yours dude.
Hear me out…
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Invent time machine
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?
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The candidate I want most gets elected.
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And 5 month ago it was double that time and people already screamed that pointing out that an alternative to two genocidal geriatrics is needed were screamed down as being Trump puppets.
We already wasted half of that time to find a solution with people being vigorously opposed to demanding a solution as they are afraid to lose the status quo.
Cmon dude, we can read your history.
People are not calling you a Trump puppet because you criticise Biden. People are arguing with you because you think not voting is a solution that Democrats are actually affected by.
By not voting, you just ensure the person you want the least to be in office wins (Trump). There’s plenty of shills trying to discourage people from voting with that rhetoric. Republicans only win when dems don’t show up.
The political cycle is not 10 months long. Or 24. Or 48.
If you want change, you need to be involved in pushing over a large number of heavy objects over a long period of time. No one candidate, no one election, is going to change anything.
Because your damn country isn’t “descending into fascism”, it’s been bathing in it for centuries, and every time there’s someone trying to lift y’all kicking and screaming out of it just a little bit, the totalitarians crop up to try and self-destruct it all. Then, suddenly, a bunch of you come out of the woodwork to declare that it’s better to blow it all up, actually, than to do literally anything to stop it, because you believe there should be a quick and easy solution, and everyone else around you is just an idiot for not seeing it.
But you only believe that because you’re some kind of self-important, hubris-huffing sucker.
So you don’t have a suggestion/alternative for me?
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It’s more than yes/no to fascism.
In a democratic political party you can influence the politics democratically. In a fascist party: Not possible.
The country does not need to hit rock bottom before it can improve. It can be changed democratically from within if you allow it to by voting for anything but the party that will take away that possibility.
Why would the democratic party listen to anything you have to say if they know you’ll vote for them regardless?
I don’t understand this logic when we saw the influence sanders had on liberal US politics without even being elected president. The party looks completely different from 10-15 years ago. We can move the needle.
Of course it’s not enough. I doubt it ever will be. But it sure does change and I have seen the results first hand. We all have.
Clinton lost 2016 in part because people were unhappy with her over Sanders
Because of primaries
You need to go take a civics class and stop trying to suppress the leftwing vote. Do you expect anyone to sit down and explain to you how campaigning for issues works? Do you expect us to list every decent win “the left” has gotten the last 5-10 years?
What have you gotten accomplished? What have you even participated in?
Just because you sit in a basement unplugged from reality, doomscrolling, doesn’t mean the rest of should sit here and take advice from you. You admit you just want fascism faster.
Bad-faith, accelerationist, useful idiot. If it weren’t so cliche I’d call you Vlad.
That was a lot of words to not even attempt to answer a very simple question
Bad-faith, accelerationist
I like the self awareness displayed by calling me bad faith and then immediately reiterating the thing you just made up about me and decided was true based on what seems to be a deliberately bad interpretation of my original comment.
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How do you think a political party comes up with ideas in the first place?
You’re just an accelerationist. Fatalism, nihilism, apathy, hopeless, etc aren’t anything new, most of us disagree with you. I wonder if your outlook would improve if you got therapy or if you had a little skin in the game and stood to lose something.
If they were an accelerationist, wouldn’t they be voting for Trump?
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Not necessarily.
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Who says they aren’t?
Not necessarily
Why not? You’re claiming they’re operating on a principle of trying to accelerate collapse, and that Trump is the candidate to do that. But this is completely inconsistent with what the person is saying they’ll do. It doesn’t explain their behavior.
Who says they aren’t?
So we’re just making things up whole cloth about people now?
It’s cute of you to step in to defend your alt account, but you can’t be serious.
They’re an accelerationist, for whatever reason, they want collapse. The quicker it happens the better, they admitted as much above.
You’re supposing that Trump is the candidate to do that, I think most of lemmy would agree with you so I’ll cede that point.
That point ceded, we can agree most of lemmy won’t vote for Trump right? So what would be the point of talking about voting Trump here? It’s far more effective for the accelerationist (who likely isn’t conservative anyway) to be a “leftist” who’s so disgusted with how corrupt and unfair the system is they simply just check out and encourage others to check out as well, “both sides are the same” of course.
So we’re just making things up whole cloth about people now?
We’re inferring things, it’s quite a bit different comrade.
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Yes the point of my comment was that I want fascism faster well done
The little bit you have actually said has indicated that and you have done absolutely nothing to refute it so my advice is that sarcasm only works when the targeted recipient of it has been shown you would only say it sarcastically.
In what world would any person make that argument ?
Assuming you’re not voting…
Do you acknowledge that you’re voting for a coin toss between a slower descent or a faster descent into fascism? Averaging out to you being in favor of an even faster descent into fascism than the person you replied to?
That’s not what not voting is, no
Do you acknowledge that voting for a candidate enacting bad policies is voting for those bad policies
Yes but not voting for that candidate is effectively just like voting for the other even worse guy.
I mean we both know that Biden ain’t great, but Trump? Trump is far fuckXng worse! Don’t like the genocide ? Biden is wayyyyyy more likely to sign a ceasefire than Trump. Want Trans Rights? Biden doesn’t care, Trump wants to remove them. I’d rather have Biden’s apathy than Trump’s hate.
There is a Contrapoints video abt this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3Vah8sUFgI
Contrapoints didn’t make that video in the context of a genocide.
You know what would force Biden to provide actually decent politics? If people demanded them and withhold their vote otherwise. And you know who would rather want Trump to win, than provide adequate protection of human rights, including Trans rights? Joe Biden, the guy you want to vote for. The DNC and him are laughing their asses off together with the Reps that no matter what, you will keep letting them get away with it.
So you’re willing to risk letting Trump win AGAIN just so you can own Biden? Like honey no… watch the video it explains it much better than I do.
So what do you suppose we do? Start a revolution against the biggest military on earth? I believe America needs to stop having a two party system, this way there is more chance someone like Bernie gets elected. But alas who will vote for them…
Tell Biden to either stop the bullshit or not get your vote and mean it, for instance by backing it up with demonstrations.
And then?
I already said this somewhere else but please vote, not voting for Biden is essentially like voting for Trump. And once Biden is in you can be as mad as you want against him, protest and shit, because Biden might actually listen, Trump would never.
because Biden might actually listen,
Why would he listen if he knows he can have your vote regardless
No, it’s not “essentially like voting for Trump”. It’s voting for the person you voted for. What is the fundamental difference between voting for Biden and voting for a different candidate in the event of a Trump victory? There is none. Do not shame the voters. Shame the politicians into acting in a way deserving of leadership.
So what if voting blue will end up with innocent people dying? Their sacrifice for my freedom will not go without honor. I will enshrine their lives with a statue commemorating their bravery in the fight for my freedom. The lives of innocent trans people, black people, and Palestinian children is a steep cost but it’s one I’m willing to spend for me to go to Starbucks and get a latte for $9. Who’s to say my life is worth more than theirs? Well Joe Biden made that determination for us, so I believe that’s right! I’m glad it’s a bunch of random black and brown people getting blown to bits for my right to vote, not me!
Consider that endorsing an awful candidate in Biden will help get Trump elected.
How the hell did you come to that idiotic conclusion?
- You dont even like your candidate, why should i come to your side instead of you come to mine?
Because one stands a chance of winning, the other does not.
whichever side we support stands a chance of winning. They aint gonna compete in a game of skill in November, they’re gonna ask us who wins and we decide.
Yes, “we”, consisting of statistically significant factions of the voting population. Campaigns take time and money, neither of which any candidates besides the two front-runners have enough of to be competitive. They’re not gonna ask you who wins, you don’t decide. I don’t see 70 million Americans shifting to anyone else at this stage.
you’ve got a paradox going where me supporting a better candidate is pointless because my vote is worth nothing and I cant change anything.
but also that I have to support your candidate because my vote matters if its for them.
my vote matters and I’m giving it to a better candidate.
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All you liberals have brain worms.
Says the person who doesn’t understand how the US election system works.
It’s unfortunately a bipartisan system with the shitty electoral system that needs reformation. It’s barely a democracy, but there is a clear option out of the two, and for now, ensuring Trump is not president again is a step in a better direction.
Wrong. Vote RFK.
🤢 I’d rather vote green
You are not in Europe my friend. Why do Americans not even understand their own voting system.
The Green Party is a thing in America.
Republican and Democrat are the two biggest parties by a large margin, but a few other smaller parties exist. Plus, some people run as an Independent. They’re not affiliated with any party at all.
Edit: I never meant to imply the other parties had any chance at winning an election in a meaningful way, which is what these replies seem to think I was saying. (They don’t have a chance, honestly.) But other parties do exist, including a party in which you can “vote green”. That is all I’m saying.
In a first past the post system of districts with single representative candidates, it almost always resolves to two viable parties. That’s the way it’s been for basically all of American history.
The parties can change, but the shape of the system remains constant: a vote is only effective when cast for the largest opponent of your least desired candidate. It’s unintuitive and discouraging.
The parliamentary systems used in much of Europe, for all their flaws, do allow for more robust and diverse representation.
Greens in America aren’t in a position to govern. Even if Stein got enough electoral votes through the work of 30-60 literal miracles, she’d be totally unable to govern effectively. You need a deep bench and more of a base in the other branches of government to form a party that can effect changes and run this country
There’s more to federal elections than winning. It’s always hilarious when people that don’t understand how fucked our system is try to teach others.
Teaching civics is part of the “a republic, if you can keep it” that Franklin was talking about
Despite there being more to federal election third party remains suppressed and will always be suppressed by first past the post.
100%. But ballot access, federal funding, and being able to actually run spoilers locally are pretty important.
There is no viable third party without voting reform.
If you really want smaller parties to have any chance, go help the people within the democratic party who are trying to make that happen.
I love how you exactly proved their point without realising. Please go look up the spoiler effect with first-past-the-post voting.
Then we can use third party candidates to determine who the power actually goes to. At the end of the day. America is so bipolar split tlboth parties are now completely at the mercy of anyone who can garner 10% support. RFK Jr at this point can literally be the decider or who becomes president and who doesn’t. Maybe we can use that as a tool of power to force the 2 parties to open the voting system up or have their power cockblocked from them every election cycle.
No, this is not how it works. Please look up the spoiler effect.
I can’t vote because I don’t live there, but am in the imperial core of countries, so it would be very nice to not have fascists in charge, considering we literally have prosecuted whistleblowers reporting on warcrimes at the behest of the US government. We’re your little bitches whether we like it or not.
Y’all really do need to be hyper-focused on pushing for sweeping electoral reform, for sure.
In the meantime though, voting for a 3rd party under your system is basically a vote for the person you don’t want.
Vote Biden if you would dislike having Trump more. If you don’t want to do that, then yeah, you’re basically admitting you’re cool with the outcome of Trump presidency.
Please don’t waste your vote, your vassals beg you.
I don’t want Biden OR trump. that’s why I’m voting for a so-called third party
Unfortunately, that would effectively be a vote for Trump.
What are you smoking
Wrong again. Your admitting we dont live in a democracy if thats the case. we dont live in a democracy the only solution is to oust the government.
No, they’re right but we live in a flawed democracy.
I believe it’s such a broken democracy that it doesn’t qualify as a proper democracy.
So, tell me, how does third party voting or abstaining from voting help oust the government?
Why drive to a polling location to throw your vote away then?
1984
I think in my country that’s called “Stemmespild”
which basically means wasted-vote.
if a political party wants to enter the parliament, they gotta get at least 2% of the votes. so if you vote for one of the very unpopular parties and they only get ~1.5% you’ve effectively wasted your vote completely (This is how it works in my country - of course things are different in the US)
Things are even worse in the US. For president you need to get a plurality of the votes (more than any other candidate) nationally (let’s ignore the EC for now) which means that any vote not for the two candidates who stand a chance is wasted.
But also in their congressional elections they set up the system so to get in you have to get a plurality in some district where only one representative will be sent each time (FPTP). So even if your party has 15% nationally, unless they can win a plurality in some districts, they won’t get any representation.
Thats why 3rd parties are pure vote wasters in presidential elections and in Congress you only have a handful of independent reps who somehow win their districts without party backing.
Cobtrast that with most of Europe (including Denmark(?)) where you have proportional voting for a parliament and then parliament forms a government. You can vote for your green party and while they might not get to be Prime Minister, they might be needed for the parliamentary majority to form a government and get the environment ministry. Win! Or they might just exert slight pressure in parliament directly, which is where laws are made. Not a loss!
The poor 'Mericans, meanwhile, are screwed. The only reasonable choice is between the two major parties at the elections. To turn that oil tanker they have to get involved in those parties and try to affect which candidates are put forth and then the party even skips that step entirely if they happened to have won the last presidential elections.
lol, you’re so free in the freedom land that you taking an un-awful option from the trainwreck gets you hate from the cult on both sides of the mainstream political parties.
Good on you for having a conscience.
Muricah!!!
Yeah, I don’t know why I try with these liberal, blue wave fanatics. They just love genocide so much.
I don’t like the green party, they basically go away except for a publicity campaign once every 4 years.
PSL is constantly putting in work and has been at nearly every student protest.
as long as you still vote for biden. hold your nose if you must. i know i will be…
That’s how I was voting for Hillary, and I almost actually vomited, for all the good that did me.
if more had also done that, we wouldn’t be here now
If she had bothered to campaign in the Midwest and had just generally been a much better candidate, more people would have.
It’s the job of a politician to earn votes and faithfully represent the priorities of the majority of the voters. People like Hillary, Biden, Schumer and the rest of the Dem leadership seldom do either.
It’s also the job of the electorate to educate themselves on the consequences of their vote (and non-vote). Don’t act like nobody knew who Trump was, what he had already done, or was listening to what he was saying.
Not job, DUTY. Otherwise I get your point. I’d like to add that it is also the duty of those more educated to try to educate others in a non-hostile, factual, and rhetorically effective way in order to bolster the numbers of people who can make informed/educated decisions on these things.
Again you are completely taking Biden out of his responsibility. Why do you want to vote for a guy that rather wants to lose to Trump, than provide decent policies around basic human rights, like the right not to get genocided?
Biden and the DNC rulers are a group of psychopaths. They will not care as long as they get the money form their rich donors, who don’t care if Biden or Trump is doing their bidding.
“I don’t like Biden’s support for Israel’s genocide so I’m going to make it more likely that the guy who would support Israel’s genocide even more gets into office.”
Incredibly dumb take.
“I am telling my politicians that they dont need to listen to me, they will get my vote no matter what. Oh why do they never listen to me?”
Incredible big brain take.
Again you are completely taking Biden out of his responsibility.
Ve done nothing of the sort. If you think anything I’ve said even comes close to that, you’re hallucinating. Or lying.
Why do you want to vote for a guy that rather wants to lose to Trump, than provide decent policies around basic human rights, like the right not to get genocided?
That’s such a loaded question and so absurdly fallacious on its face, I’m not going to even dignify it by answering it, but I will say that you clearly don’t care what I want, just to push an agenda.
But, since you didn’t ask, what I want is for Trump to lose, and that math is simple: any vote not for Biden helps Trump, and no matter how much you dislike Biden, Trump will be 1000x worse. We know, because Trump has promised that.
Biden and the DNC rulers are a group of psychopaths.
Compared to Trump, they’re saints, and if you can’t see that, you’re clearly incapable of rational discourse on the matter. Or you’re clearly here to feebly undermine confidence in Biden in support of Trump.
Either way, your argument is transparent, fact-free, and little more than Fox News fodder.
By voting Biden you declare your support of his policies. That is the fundamental way of how democracies work. You vote your representative because you think he is representing you.
By attacking anyone who says you shouldn’t approve of genocide as your representation you abolish your representative from his responsibility of not supporting genocide and instead blame it on the people who think that genocide is never an acceptable representation for them.
For you individually as a citizen there is only one legal way to hold a politician responsible. And that is by denying them further support in the next election. Now if it comes to group action through demonstrations, unions, lobbying etc. that is great and even better to do. But if it is down to you and the ballot the only direct thing is to declare before what your political demands are and vote accordingly. If your demand is “genocide is okay” then you will have to make that up with your consciousness, the victims and survivors and eventually towards future generations.
It’s also the job of the electorate to educate themselves on the consequences of their vote (and non-vote).
It actually isn’t, no. Nobody is paying them to do that and, in the case of millions if not tens of people who are amongst the working poor because of the kind of economic policy the Dems have been putting out ever since she and her husband remade the party in their own image in 1992, they aren’t realistically able to with neither candidates nor mainstream media helping them sort the wheat from the chaff.
When you’re already working 60 hours a week trying (and often failing) to make ends meet on top on whatever family commitments you may have, you can’t be expected to have energy left to fact check candidates and media outlets for free. It’s simply not that voter’s responsibility to keep powerful and well-paid people honest.
Don’t act like nobody knew who Trump was, what he had already done, or was listening to what he was saying.
Then maybe Hillary and the media shouldn’t shouldn’t have done all they could to make sure he became the candidate!
That the fascist ever got anywhere near the nomination, let alone the presidency itself, is hundreds of times more the fault of the rich and powerful people paid to prevent it than the people they failed to convince to vote for an evil, however lesser it would have been.
It actually isn’t, no. Nobody is paying them to do that
That is the worst and most entitled excuse for the abandonment for any and all personal responsibility since I heard my 3-year-old niece try to convince my brother she should never have to wipe her own butt because he will always be there to do it for her.
Wow. Shame on you.
People don’t take their citizenship seriously, it seems.
Clearly, you didn’t understand what I was trying to explain any better than your niece would have.
If anyone’s abandoning personal responsibility, it’s the awful candidates who don’t do their job and then blame people who suffer for it much more than the candidates ever will.
I’m not saying that it’s a good or even neutral thing to not vote for the lesser evil when only evils are available. Of course that’s had.
I’m saying that it’s the responsibility of the candidates to not be evil and to convince enough voters of it that the greater evil doesn’t win.
I honestly regret not voting for Hillary. I didn’t vote for Trump either, I voted third-party because I thought Hillary was going to win, and even if she didn’t win, what’s the worst Trump could do, huh? So I figured it wouldn’t hurt to vote for a third-party with the hope they’d get enough points to be on the debate stage during the next general election.
Granted, my vote probably wouldn’t have made a difference. Tbh, considering I live in a state with winner-takes-all voting, I’m not even sure my vote actually matters now; but I’m still going to vote for Biden. It’s better than assuming he’ll win and risking another Trump victory.
Yes, I know I’m not the main character and I’m only one person. I know that changing my vote alone won’t make a difference. However, what might make a difference is if I talk about my reasoning in a public forum. Then, people might stop, read my post, and change their minds. Now, it’s not one vote, it’s two. They might spread their view as well, and two votes becomes four. Four votes becomes eight; and eight becomes sixteen. As small as that sounds, sixteen votes can make all the difference in an election. There are elections that have come down to one or two votes.
I did the same thing, in a solidly blue state, with the same thought processes; I voted for Jill Stein. Even after Trump won, I figured he couldn’t fuck it up too badly. I even thought he might manage to get one thing right (I’m very solidly pro-2A), but nope, he couldn’t even do that.
Biden isn’t nearly far enough left for me. But I’ll vote for him without even a hint of hesitation, because he’s so much better than the only realistic possibility. And I live in a purple state now, so it might end up mattering.
*in certain states
She won the popular vote, she lost the electoral vote. Where you live MATTERS towards your vote in this country, by design, for situations like this
It sucks but yeah. I’ll be holding my nose this election even though Biden has no chance in my state.
Nother reminder: not voting for biden isvoting for trump regardless if you support either of them
Another genocide supporter. Got it.
Well I’m not voting for Trump so I guess, by your logic, that means I’m voting for Biden. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Asserting this is obtusely ignoring the context that conservative voters have no qualms about voting for someone grossly immoral.
There aren’t conservatives out there saying “Yeah well I was gonna vote for Trump but he supports genociding Palestinians”.
The fact that conservatives don’t have this problem and everyone else does means that, yes, you are enabling Trump by not voting Biden. The “logic” necessarily does not work the other way around, even if you say it like some sort of clever gotcha with a complex emoji.
“Nooo you don’t understand I’m definitely going to defeat fascism by doing absolutely nothing ever. You just don’t understand the benefits of political apathy”
Something something accelerationism… surely if we let the fascists win now then they’ll let us win later!
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Why indeed? The fact is that not enough people vote for third parties for it to matter by an order of magnitude.
Conservatives don’t vote third party. When we do, we split our own vote in the face of a party that has their base on lock.
Because that logic is abundantly obvious, people don’t vote third party enough to make a difference. It’s a self fulfilling prophecy. And it’s so effective at actually splitting the vote that both parties have attempted running spoiler candidates in the past to do just that.
Why doesnt everyone just vote third party? Because enough people who could are afraid that it will mean degrading democracy by handing over the reigns if it doesn’t work, thereby creating the very problem that they are afraid of.
One day y’all will get the point that this entire ideology is in and of itself fascist.
“We aren’t fascist we just stripped you of all other choices and move the goalposts anytime someone gets close to inclusion then blame you for wanting another option while shrieking that only WE can save the country but also we won’t save it either cause we haven’t had a platform other than ‘slightly less right’ for over a decade or two now.”
One day you will get the point that the reality is that we as voters don’t make the rules.
Yeah, you’re right. We’re boxed into this shitty ass system. Grandstanding about how shitty it is doesn’t magically create a solution.
We vote for the least worst option and try to make progress towards a better situation in the future. It’s either that or we fall to actual fascists who would rather take the vote away.
“Actual fascists”
We already have “actual fascists.” Reread your comment, even by YALLS OWN EXPLANATION, our vote was taken away long before we were born. Nothing but performative bullshit so you can claim to be the “good guy” as we’re further and further clamped down on.
What you actually mean by “take the vote away” is “take your status quo” away. Biden and dems have been pushing legislation to take away all the hassle of nuking leftist organizations and to make ANY criticism of Israel something that let’s them strip a school of funding and accreditation if they allow it - but y’all don’t mind any of that “actual fascism” because it doesn’t affect your personal day to day life.
You can fly your pride flags all you want but you’re throwing Palestinians under the bus to protect your warmongering corporatist status quo, y’all are starting to throw trans people under the bus to protect it, and when the time comes you’ll do the same to gays and POC all while screaming about the “lesser of two evils.”
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Then how the hell did Trump win in 2016 and nearly win in 2020? He is literally antithetical to everything conservatives say they are, yet they still fucking turned out and voted for him instead of someone else.
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Only one explicitly right wing 3rd party was even an option in 2020, and Jorgensen ran libertarian, which is an ideology conservatives as a whole tend to reject. As evidenced by the ~1% of the vote she got.
this isn’t true
Are you sure about that?
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This is the stupidest thing I’ve read today.
They’re almost certainly a bot. Report them.
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Vote splitting is not a myth. It’s just math. Let me explain with an example:
1000 people at a conference are deciding where to order catering and hold a vote:
- 490 people want Mexican and do not want Asian
- 510 people want Asian:
- 480 people want Vietnamese, would be satisfied with Thai, and do not want Mexican
- 30 people want Thai, would be satisfied with Vietnamese, and do not want Mexican
The restaurants on the ballot are:
- A Mexican restaurant,
- A Vietnamese restaurant, and
- A Thai restaurant.
If the people who want Asian recognize the strength of their combined numbers, then they can tip the scales by all voting for the favorite between Vietnamese and Thai. In this situation, we get 490 votes Mexican, 510 votes Vietnamese, and 0 votes Thai. This time Vietnamese wins and the majority of people, the 510 who prefer Asian, are either happy or satisfied with the result while only 490 are disappointed.
If everyone votes for their favorite, then we get 490 votes Mexican, 480 votes Vietnamese, and 30 votes Thai. In this case, Mexican wins and the majority of people, the 510 who prefer Asian, are left disappointed while only 490 people are happy with the result. The vote has been split and the result is that the entire conference is worse off for it.
By the way, the ratio of 480 Vietnamese to 30 Thai is irrelevant as long as neither value is 0. That ratio can be fixed to any positive value and a situation can be described in which vote splitting occurs with that specific ratio of Vietnamese supporters to Thai supporters. That’s why vote splitting isn’t too uncommon - any number of people voting Thai has the potential to split the vote. The one caveat is if literally every Vietnamese supporter decides to vote Thai as well; in that scenario, no vote splitting can occur. Unfortunately, that doesn’t happen in practice because it’s easier to convert the Thai supporters who are smaller in number than it is to convert the Vietnamese supporters who have greater numbers.
If you want examples from history, there are plenty. Our electoral college amplifies the effect since it breaks one federal election down into a large number of state elections, any of which can exhibit vote splitting. Other people have linked to them in this discussion and you can find more elsewhere online.
Trump is leading the polls.
so if you currently think “im not gonna vote”, then you’re giving trump a head start
A majority of the non-voters are more likely to vote for the democrats. thats also why the republicans are making it as difficult as possible to vote. coz they know, the more who vote, the less likely they are at winning
Were you predisposed to vote for Trump? Then yes.
We can’t get through to these idiots. They are the fools that use literally to mean figuratively.
No one here WANTS to vote for Biden, but it’s literally the only way to make sure Trump isn’t president, unless you want to go ahead and change the national bipartisan system by November.
Not voting for Biden is the same thing as voting for Trump.
Voting for Biden doesn’t mean supporting him. It means preventing Trump from becoming president.
Sure, but if you can and don’t vote for Biden it means you’re at least ok with Trump.
No, it means I’m not ok with genocide but you are.
You have two options:
- Ok with genocide. Otherwise relatively progressive. Has passed major important legislation.
- Ok with genocide. Wants to be a dictator. Appointed half of the Supreme Court majority that took away women’s right to abortion. Will probably strip more rights if elected. Cut taxes on the wealthy and will probably do it again.
You can throw away your vote, but come inauguration, you will have a president who is ok with genocide.
But I will not have voted for one of them. But you will have and the blood will be on your hands.
You have an abysmally stupid sense of morality.
I think some of these people have to be trolls. We’re basically in the trolley problem where the trolley is headed for 100,000 people, and if you pull the lever it will only kill 1. You can’t abstain from pulling the lever and act like you’re completely innocent of the deaths of the masses.
the trolley problem tests you ethical framework, it does not have a prescribed solution. your answer to it helps you understand your own approach. deontologists never pull the lever.
That’s an awful lot of trolls.
How is being against a genocide immoral?
If your morality prioritizes staunch adherence to standards over harm reduction, you have a stupid sense of morality.
It’s the kind of morality where someone would rather let a child die than push them out of the way of a speeding car, simply because pushing them would harm them.
Your morality should lead you to making decisions that result in the least harm. Look at it this way: if all of the people who voted third party instead of Hillary because Hillary wasn’t [insert moral standard here] enough had sucked it up and voted for Hillary, access to abortion would still be legal nationwide. (This assumes enough people to get her elected voted third party over moral objections.)
Trump is the worst president in my life time, by a huge margin, and he’s even more in favor of genocide than Biden, demonstrably. So if your sense of morality causes you to help put him in charge of our country again, in my mind, you’re a fucking moron.
I’ve asked folks who aren’t voting for Biden what they think the odds of their vote reducing genocide in the real world is, and all I’ve gotten is crickets.
Given that there doesn’t seem to be much confidence there, the real world results are likely trump or biden.
Trump has folks in his party alluding to nukes when saying Palestine has to be ended quickly, even trump himself has stated that Israel has to end the war quickly. Therefore I suggest that Trump will result in far more lives lost than Biden.
Folks on Lemmy are typically left-leaning.
This means that a Lemmy user voting third party could’ve been a vote for Biden, which in a binary choice results in less lives lost. Yes, I know, Biden centrist, etc etc, but he’s to the left of the absolute insanity that is the republican party.
However instead some folks value a clean conscience over real world results, and vote third party/abstain. If these votes would’ve otherwise gone to Biden, then they have made a trump presidency more likely, which has the real world effect of resulting in more lives lost.
I’m fine with people voting with their conscience, but I just want folks to acknowledge whether or not their vote makes a trump presidency (therefore more genocide) more likely. Most people just seem to think “I’m not voting for genocide so my hands are clean and I’m good!” and stick their head in the sand.
So, you’re okay with not having a clean conscience? Or, other voters should be okay with not having a clear conscience? If Biden winning is more important to you than having a clean conscience. Vote for him. But don’t pressure people that choose to have a clear conscience.
Unless thought police is on your bucket list.
If you truly oppose genocide. You should be plotting a coup against the US executive branch.
We don’t know they aren’t.
But then if Trump wins because you didn’t vote for either, then you’re ok with Genocide+ rather than Genocide light. Meaning you have to vote for the lesser of the two evils if no matter what you do the majority are voting for the only two who are likely to win.
You’re either incredibly stupid, a troll, or are being obstinate on purpose.
So… What do you think are the odds that your third party vote improves the situation in Palestine?
If your third party vote makes it more likely that Trump wins and results in more bloodshed, that is a choice you contributed to, and blood is still on your hands.
Not voting isn’t wiping the stain from your hands. It’s you wringing your hands of responsibility and refusing to put in the actual work.
If you don’t vote against fascism, you allowed fascism.
Cool, I’ll give you a pass on the genocide, but you will still be as responsible as anyone who voted for Trump for all the other terrible things he said he will do that you are doing nothing to prevent.
Not voting is a vote for Trump.
If you’re not ok with genocide you should vote against Donald “just nuke them” Trump.
I’m not going to tell anybody what to do or who to vote for but one of two things are very likely to happen at the end of this election:
- Biden is re-elected. We continue with the status quo. We have a chance to make small incremental steps toward a better future.
- Trump is elected. Two Supreme Court justices retire and Trump appoints two more. At that point he will have appointed FIVE of NINE Supreme Court justices. We have already seen what they’re willing to do. Imagine what they will do in the literal decades to come.
Choose what you want to do, but take responsibility for your choice. Vote in your local elections. Big changes can happen from the ground up.
Criticizing our leaders is one of the core principals of democracy.
Voting is also a core principal. So please stop encouraging non-participation.
How is the post encouraging anything
You clearly haven’t seen any of the replies from OP in the comments.
A large part of Lemmy including OP encourage political protest of the Democrats shortcomings by not voting.
Criticizing our leaders is one of the core principals of democracy.
Was that sarcasm I missed?
It’s not, it’s discouraging voting for the guy that counters the “boof bleach” incest loving fell who “only will be a dictator for a day”. You know, the unified Reich vibe that you totally are against lmao.
Then, why isn’t voting compulsory?
You misunderstand me, you should be allowed not to vote but encouraging it as a form of protest is misguided.
There’s a contradiction. If you are allowed not to vote in a democracy, and you don’t like any of the candidates, then, how can it be misguided to withhold your vote?
No it isn’t. You have the right not to vote but participation should be encouraged as it’s what gives everyone a say. Seems pretty simple to me. I’m not even saying they don’t have the right to discourage people but if you have lived through the last 8 years and do it, you’re a REALLY slow learner.
I am really slow, so thanks for taking the time. But, let’s say you’re a socialist, and both candidates are capitalists. So you decide that neither candidate upholds your interests. How would any “encouragement” to vote change your mind?
In the case where neither candidate represents your political positions, not voting is an act of rebellion.
I would say it’s wholely ineffective and only enables the worst actors
Then it is the fault of the electoral system and not the voters.
I voted for Gary Johnson because Hillary sounded awful in 2016 and I 1000x regret it. Fuck this system for making me choose between bad and worse, but yes obviously I have to choose bad over worse.
Most are referring to the way our current electoral system works. Voting 3rd party helps the Republicans even if its not intentional.
Yup, and the only way out of that is Ranked Choice Voting.
Go volunteer for your local RCV group, California’s is here: https://www.calrcv.org/
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But ranked choice is easy to implement and in practice if everyone would put a candidate second they aren’t likely to be knocked out in the first round. There are very limited practical examples where it doesn’t provide the optimal outcome.
It also seems to have some level of support and momentum in the US and it seems to me like it’d be better not to get caught in the weeds fighting over which new voting system should be implemented there.
Approval is trivial.
Ranked Pairs has the same ballots as Ranked Choice and it works the way people think ranked ballots work.
RCV has momentum primarily because people keep using the name to mean “ranked ballots.”
Approval Voting seems to just dilute your vote the more candidates you vote for. Candidates will tell people people to only place one vote. What a silly system.
Your worst-case scenario is how things currently work.
Realistically, people will just ignore that shite advice, and vote for as many people as they feel like. It works out on average.
I am very much in favor of RCV but it is not the magic bullet solution people think it is. Definitely support it, definitely good for people to get involved, but people need to be a little careful of overpromising what it can deliver. It is a critical part of much-needed but comprehensive reform, not THE reform itself.
Nobody thinks its a magic bullet, we’re all looking for the next rung that leads us closer to a happy democracy. None of us are looking for instant easy solutions, we’re trying to iterate and be better.
No no I get that I should’ve been clearer. I just see it a LOT and folks do seem to think it’ll be a cure. I shouldn’t have implied you meant that.
In other words, It’s necessary but not sufficient for reforming the two party system.
It would certainly help!
This is absurd. Take a look at the polls. There is only one 3rd-party candidate with double digit percentages. Do you really think JFK is taking more votes from Biden than Trump?
Taking the risk because you think you know something you can’t know is what’s absurd
I never made any indication on how I’m voting. I’m just tired of this baseless claim that voting 3rd party only helps Trump. Polls excluding 3rd-parties show Trump significantly further ahead than those with 3rd-parties. Therefore, Biden’s only chance of winning is due to JFK capturing conservative votes.
TIL “how America works” = “baseless claim”
What is “how America works” in this context? You seem to be trying to make the point that 3rd-party voting only hurts Biden. I’m pointing to recent polling that shows that, when 3rd-party options are included, Biden’s margins get closer to victory. You should be thanking 3rd-parties if you are hoping for a Biden victory.
So polling, that thing that told us trump couldn’t have won in 2016, makes another prediction, eh?
Yet Robert Reich has said the same thing.
Maybe. A lot of folks only know him for his good environmental stance and see him as the rightful Democrat candidate.
They don’t see his antivax bullshit and leaky brain from WiFi.
A different way to think about it - most of the intended audience on Lemmy, and especially in this community, would’ve voted democrat instead of republican. So from the frame of reference of this post, most folks here claiming to vote third party did in fact have their vote “taken” from Biden.
Unfortunately, the US political system does not have a feature to “dislike” all the candidates. Not without a major, probably bloody, revolution, anyway. Your choice is to support and pick one candidate, or let everyone else pick the candidate for you.
I’m ready for the third option tbh
You can always write in your own candidate. Not that it’s likely to sway the vote in any significant way, but at least it might help you feel better about your choice.
Liberal democracy has to win every election, fascism only has to win one. Good job if you win in 2024, now do it again every 4 years
Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb.
Good gets lazy. It has too much hope in others also being good.
We have been doing it for over 200 years now though
Ehhhh, things are looking a little dicey…
Ok but what no leftie has yet explained is who has asked them to like Biden? Probably nobody who votes for Biden last time or this time around thinks he’s “teh awesome”, we’re simply grown ups who are able to tell which is the least bad option. Honestly lefties (if they aren’t just groipers posing as lefties) who think it’s a hot take to say Biden isn’t the optimal person to be President are all suffering from Captain Obvious syndrome while thinking they’re the cleverest people ever. It’s cringe.
I don’t think most people think that. They’re saying if you discourage people from voting for Biden then you are supporting Trump in the election.
Critiques are all well and good.
Critiques are necessary. We don’t owe electors loyalty. They owe us representation.
With that being said, when it comes to voting, inaction is action.
I literally said critiques are well and good.
I’m sorry if my comment implied disagreement. It was meant to support and reinforce your point, not counter it.
All good I’m just used to the default contrarian stance on forums, my bad.
No worries. I wrote with conviction. I see how that can come across as argumentative.
Well I’ve had 2 of these misunderstandings today so I’ll own it a bit lol
You owe it to the country to not hand our government over to fascism. Voting for the immediate alternative isn’t a blood pact.
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Fuck your analogy.
One of two people is going to be in charge of the country seven months from now. You can have the boring liberal with an awful allegiance to a questionable ally run by a power-hungry bastard… or you can have our very own power-hungry bastard, who is also going to give the aforementioned bastard everything he wants.
Don’t choose more evil.
I have no clue how that quoted section is applicable.
It’s an idiot trying to make a terrible point.
Yeah, but… Oftentimes criticizing Biden helps trump. I’d rather not even risk it at this point.
Can we spend more energy celebrating that trump is NOT the president and how bad it would be if he comes back?
Criticizing Biden is totally fine. It’s the pressure from these posters to not vote for Biden out of principle that’s the problem.
Biden is flubbing the Gaza situation hard but he’s still (unfortunately) our only chance to keep Trump out of office.
This post should really say “Just because we dislike Biden doesn’t mean we shouldn’t vote for him”
Telling the DNC that you and most people will vote for him unconditionally is sabotaging his chances; the dems need to understand they cannot win if they continue the path they’re on, and telling them otherwise is counterproductive.
Silencing criticism of millions isn’t gonna win an election. Doing the things the people whose votes you need are telling you to do will.
Well, the problem is, the way the US sees it, keeping Israel as an ally is more important than Joe Biden. Yes, even if that means fascism comes humping an American flag. You can still be at the top of the postwar order with a fascist in charge!
The DNC are not on Lemmy.
Yeah, but they’re listening to public sentiment.
If public sentiment is “everyone’s gonna vote for Biden no matter what”, they’re not gonna change the course, and then be shocked when they get blown out worse than they did in 2016.
If the public sentiment is that we’re gonna vote for Biden no matter what, then when the election comes we’ll vote for Biden …no matter what.
What you’re describing is if the DNC hear “blue no matter who”, but what they hear isn’t reflective of reality. Meanwhile, what we want is for everyone to vote blue no matter who, but give the DNC a good scare into getting their act together.
So what we absolutely need to do is be critical of Biden when the DNC are watching, but stress the dangers of a Trump presidency when they’re not paying attention.
And the DNC are not on Lemmy. So Lemmy is where we should say blue no matter who. We can go criticise Biden on Facebook or whatever boomers use these days. But there’s no point in it on Lemmy, except when we’re saying to vote for him in the election and kill him in the revolution.
The problem is that people are dumb, and plenty are legitimately not planning on voting for Biden now.
If and when Biden deals with Gaza, everyone with this mindset immediately needs to turn around and start sucking off Biden with previously unseen vigor and determination, otherwise this is only going to damage his chance of being elected. Hell, even then I still see some damage being done.
It just seems irresponsible to spread this message, especially when people like OP seem to genuinely believe it. Pick a less blatantly fascist opponent than Trump to do this with ffs
If and when Biden deals with Gaza, everyone with this mindset immediately needs to turn around and start sucking off Biden with previously unseen vigor and determination, otherwise this is only going to damage his chance of being elected.
There’s tens of thousands of mostly children dead, and Israel is using famine and disease to wipe out the rest, no shit it damages Biden’s chances if his actions come this late. Especially if Biden’s answer to Gaza is ship Israel weapons more quietly while claiming to hold up shipments, while Israel starves Gaza out.
Then again, if Biden stops the money and arms to Israel, and sanctions Israel, and Trump responds by promising money and arms to Israel so they can resume the genocide, I don’t see how anyone could not vote Biden.
Totally agree, he’s already damaging his own reputation, which is why the “do not vote for Biden” game can even be played.
I’m just far more terrified of what Trump will do to Gaza, and Biden is just the lesser of two evils
What more can be done? We are already sending 100% of the weapons, money, and diplomatic support Israel needs. We’re already bombing Yemen for taking actions to stop Israel and shooting down Iranian drones trying to stop them. Is Trump going to do the same thing, but be proud of it? Shit I can’t even say that, Biden is extremely proud of his support for Israel. Trump is simply going to be more obnoxious about it.
Lesser evilism isn’t gonna win an election when your lesser evil is already genocide.
The US has nukes, and much bigger traditional ballistics than what’s currently being sent.
If Biden really really wanted to, Gaza wouldn’t exist anymore
Gaza situation
Sorry, call it how it is, the Palestinian genocide
