Without nato membership, nothing prevents Russia from trying again once they’ve regenerated their forces. Russia has already broken their promise to
reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE [Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe] Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine
So Russians pledges are worth less than nothing.
“regenerated their forces”? The Russian military is larger than it was when they started the SMO and their shell production is higher than the entire West combined. You’re inventing narratives without basis.
Larger… And significantly less experienced.
Which is what happens when you throw your special forces into the meat grinder, to the point that they’ve set up a schismatic faction in Kharkiv and are doing nothing more than attempting to weather out the rest of the war unmolested.
And the western production lines are finally starting to ramp up. Russia stands 0 chance against a fully mobilized western military industrial complex.
And every day Ukraine holds out is another day that Europe gears up.
Putin’s only hope is Trump.
significantly less experienced
Lmao, what experience do western troops have? Fighting poorly equipped insurgents, women and children?
And every day Ukraine holds out is another day that Europe gears up.
Comedic gold. Europe is facing massive de-industrialisation with severe contractions in manufacturing output and sluggish fundamentals. Compared to all the g7 countries, russia faced the highest gdp growth in recent years.
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Given that the Russians have been fighting this war for 2 years now, their military is sufficiently experienced. Fighting in wars is what makes conscripts into veterans in the first place. Given that NATO troops lack any experience fighting harsh land wars, and the Ukrainians facing severe manpower issues, the Russian military is in a much better shape than its enemies. Russia also outproduces the west in artillery by many times. In simple terms, Ukraine is not going to win this war, short of a black swan event.
If you lose 95% of your skilled veterans and all you have is green recruits your experience level goes down. Larger and greener.
Yeah, Russia has lost of 95% of its skilled soldiers, just like how they don’t have rifles, running water, and their tanks are made of paper mache, right? Pure copium analysis. If the state of the Russian military and economy is really so shit, it is even more humiliating for the collective west that they are being massively outproduced. The US spends more on its military than the next few powers combined and still can’t beat Yemen or Russia.
If you lose 95% of your experienced veterans, then your military is shrinking far faster than you can replenish it. You’re imagining things in order to make the world for your required fantasy instead of dealing with reality.
The US violated the first 2 points of the Budapest memorandum and Russia is supposed to be the untrustworthy one here? You nazi supporters really are clowns.
Slava Rossiya!
The US violated the first 2 points of the Budapest memorandum
What points were these?
- The United States of America, the Russian Fed- eration, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE [Commission on Security and Cooperation in Europe] Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.
- The United States of America, the Russian Fed- eration, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial in- tegrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nation
The US violated this when it couped the Ukranian government in 2013-2014 via the Euromaidan movement. Between violating Ukraine’s sovereignty by overthrowing her government and siccing snipers on innocent civilians in a false flag attack, the US is the aggressor.
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a great way to say your mental development stopped at age 12
Toying with NATO membership is the most surefire way to ensure the complete destruction of Ukraine.
I think many people have forgotten the brutality with which Western countries wage war. They see the (still very real) horrors in Ukraine and are told to think of them as dramatically terrible, unconscionable, in a way they have never treated Western actions, including literally NATO actions and/or major NATO member actions.
The United States destroyed virtually all of Iraq’s major civilian infrastructure during the Gulf War, then imposed sanctions that caused mass death, especially of children. Millions of deaths. When it returned in 2003 it again targeted civilian infrastructure and massive bombing campaigns, focusing on the complete destruction of all capabilities regardless of what cultural artifacts or population centers were demolished.
Now, I know how some propagandized thought patterns go. Some people reading this might think my point is to draw attention to a “who is worse?” competition. But this is not my point.
My point is that Russia has been and is entirely capable of waging that same kind of brutal, truly monstrous Western military campaign. They have chosen not to for a variety of reasons, though this restraint has been cracking since UA has started targeting Russian population centers.
A continued maximum pressure campaign that credibly threatens actual NATO membership for Ukraine (everyone knows it’s not currently credible) risks the war turning into one that is unrestrained, i.e. the destruction of civilian infrastructure, mass death, and upturning all of Ukrainian society.
They have chosen not to for a variety of reasons, though this restraint has been cracking since UA has started targeting Russian population centers.
lol
I am referring to Russia destroying some Ukrainian civilian infrastructure and to Ukraine killing civilians. Which of those do you find funny?
The funny part is how obvious your lies are. Unless you think all the death and destruction in Ukraine is not actually that but just western propaganda… Which you probably do, based on your post history.
Tldr: lol, tankie!
There is a lot of death and destruction in Ukraine. I’m not sure why you’d think my position is anything else.
Perhaps you could ask questions instead?
Because you claimed that russia can wage brutal wars but they haven’t so far, that they have showed restraint. And all the videos of hospitals and schools and residential buildings and Bucha, etc. Prove otherwise.
And no need to ask questions because I already know all the answers, I’ve read putin’s version of the history, I don’t need to hear it from you as well.
The Western narrative on Bucha is fraught and reeka of propaganda. This is not to excuse Russia of the horrors of war, which are great, nor its overall system of governance. But there is a lot to look at more closely when it comes to Bucha.
What I would highlight is that Bucha’s civilian infrastructure is intact. You cannot say this for the targets of US empire that have been bombed, historically. There is a qualitative difference in what is destroyed. It strains the heart to see what happens when the alleged “Good Guys” enter a country. The mass death. The dead children. The infants. Death of malnutrition because there is little food. Death from preventable disease because there is no clean water. The children must drink from puddles. The parents gathering water from the least dangerous-seeming source, knowing it is not safe, but having no other option. This is daily life when you are targeted for death by NATO countries. A child dies every minute in Yemen. Every minute. A Western-backed blockade prevents the import of food. The friends of US Empire, the Saudis, waged a war against Yemen, with full and necessary US logistics and intelligence support. The people there suffer under maximum pressure by Western and Western-aligned powers. And they still persist, struggling, finding the means to have solidarity with the people of Gaza.
This is not the situation Ukrainians face. They live under far less depraved pressure. While war is horrific, there are degrees. There are depths to which some sink and others do not.
It is best to oppose the escalation of affairs to make such conditions more likely, or even inevitable, for the people of Ukraine.
This is how I know you’re a troll:
My point is that Russia has been and is entirely capable of waging that same kind of brutal, truly monstrous Western military campaign. They have chosen not to for a variety of reasons
The Russians have been conducting absolutely horrifying crimes against humanity since the start of the war and, in fact, at least since World War 2. There is so much rape and torture embedded in the way that the Russian military operates that killing civilians, which is unconscionable and horrifying, is the least of their crimes.
The Russians could leave Ukraine today and the war would be over. Full stop. There is no justification for anything else.
This is how I know you’re a troll:
A troll is someone that uses bad faith to get a reaction.
Unfortunately, I am actually pretty honest and don’t do such things. At most, I am dismissive towards people who do a lot of invention to justify having bad opinions. I am not thinking of you when I refer to bad opinions or invention. I think you are simply mistaken. You have adopted patterns of thought that have led you astray, they are not good heuristics for discovering accurate conclusions. I don’t blame you for this. It happens to me, too.
The Russians have been conducting absolutely horrifying crimes against humanity since the start of the war and, in fact, at least since World War 2.
War is full of horror. I suppose I would call all of it crimes against humanity, though that does not actually have a shared definition. The act of declaring war, of being an explicit aggressor, is to enjoin those horrors, to accept them as a consequence. I’m not in the business of forgiving that except in some few circumstances, circumstances that do not apply to Russia in 2022. Though it doesn’t really matter what I forgive, in the grander scheme, I hope it conveys an accurate sentiment that dissuades you from false assumptions about my position.
I’m not sure what you mean I referencing World War 2. The USSR has been on the better side of matters, on average, including WW2 and beyond.
There is so much rape and torture embedded in the way that the Russian military operates that killing civilians, which is unconscionable and horrifying, is the least of their crimes.
Ukraine is notable in its indiscriminate use of mutilation and torture, in fact. They are the party known for the excision of penises of prisoners of war early on, to much fanfare from the fascist sympathizers among them. While there are, of course, unforgivable horrors committed by Russian troops and Ukrainian, the normalization of cruelty towards Russians, that it is out of hand, is notable.
With that said, these are violences visited on soldiers. What I am referring to is the cold, systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure. The transformayof civilian life into desperate subsistence and egress and death of elders and children. This is the norm for Western military action and its absence in the Russian aggression is obvious. Gold help Ukrainians if the West’s sociopathic maximum pressure campaign leads to the adoption of this strategy.
The Russians could leave Ukraine today and the war would be over. Full stop. There is no justification for anything else.
This is entirely valid reasoning if one takes a myopic view that begins in 2022 and relies on what seems fair rather than what reflects the geopolitical realities of what gas happened between Ukraine and Russia for the past two decades. I know this comes across as dismissive. It I think that is the root cause of your incorrect perspective. It’s not your fault for having this perspective. We are all creatures of the information we consume and the narratives spun by the powers that be.
If you would like to engender more accurate ideas, I encourage you to begin earlier than 2022 in your historical review and to take a media critical approach to your reading.
christ on a cracker who’d you piss off in Mother Russia to be regulated the the “Lemmy Propaganda Division”? you’re not even smart enough to make it to the Reddit division?
Is your political analysis exactly as sophisticated as, “I better call them Russian if I don’t know what to do”?
It seems so. Please give yourself more respect.
No my political analysis is more sophisticated than yours based on your previous aided comments. And yes I said aided because the words you type aren’t your own. Your English grammar isn’t natural and it’s quite awkward, it’s good just not natural. you need more training. So if I may provide a “protip” to you and your superiors in Russia or India or where ever you’re operating out of I would highly suggest more classes in natural speech and writing. Right now you look like you copy and paste directly from a chatgpt client. In fact that’s exactly what you’re doing.
in the span of 24 hours you’ve started posting on Lemmy again after a year off. A year ago your comments were different. no where near as elaborate and the grammar was different, also more spelling mistakes from a year ago. And then you went back to how you type now. One moment your spelling and grammar are great, the next they’re not, so it’s painfully obvious multiple people are using your account. And it’s not like you change up your habits based on what community you post to, no you change your habits on a whim. you call people bro and you say “y’all” or “yo” one moment and a few hours later you’re back on chatgpt text.
and you follow all the same tropes that known foreign trolls are known to do. post in news, world news annnnnd personal finance communities. That’s the tell that all you guys give away, constantly.
I mean we can debate all you want but I have zero desire to talk to a copy and pasting ruskie bot.
No my political analysis is more sophisticated than yours based on your previous aided comments.
I am excited to hearthis sophisticated analysis.
And yes I said aided because the words you type aren’t your own. Your English grammar isn’t natural and it’s quite awkward, it’s good just not natural. you need more training.
I’m writing precisely and with many neutral framings so that the people reading have more of an opportunity to process without feeling alienated. You will find this styles like this to be fairly common when among people who often need to disagree with one another about a political topic but wasn’t to keep the group together.
So if I may provide a “protip” to you and your superiors in Russia or India or where ever you’re operating out of I would highly suggest more classes in natural speech and writing. Right now you look like you copy and paste directly from a chatgpt client. In fact that’s exactly what you’re doing.
You said you had a more sophisticated analysis and I was hoping to hear it. Now you’re announcing that you believe some nonsense you just made up on the spot. Disappointing.
in the span of 24 hours you’ve started posting on Lemmy again after a year off. A year ago your comments were different. no where near as elaborate and the grammar was different, also more spelling mistakes from a year ago.
Yes I’ve decided to try out this approach with this account. So far it’s going about as I expected.
And then you went back to how you type now. One moment your spelling and grammar are great, the next they’re not, so it’s painfully obvious multiple people are using your account. And it’s not like you change up your habits based on what community you post to, no you change your habits on a whim. you call people bro and you say “y’all” or “yo” one moment and a few hours later you’re back on chatgpt text.
Ah, so it’s an LLM and multiple people? The plot thickens! The idea that someone writes differently than you is clearly far less likely. It’s a conspiracy!
and you follow all the same tropes that known foreign trolls are known to do. post in news, world news annnnnd personal finance communities. That’s the tell that all you guys give away, constantly.
I think you should look up the definition of the word “trope”.
I do focus on news posts, sure. I’m interested in geopolitical analysis. I didn’t know that this was something that you would find upsetting. Where do you prefer that people post about that content?
I mean we can debate all you want but I have zero desire to talk to a copy and pasting ruskie bot.
We haven’t debated at all. You just said something silly, I pointed that out, and now you’re just loudly confusing yourself about something else.
Plus Russia doesn’t even control all of the regions they’ve annexed. This is asking Ukraine to give up more territory than Russia has occupied and agree to never join NATO for noting in return.
The end of a war on their territory is what UA would get in return.
UA is already screwed under any realistic outcome. Even unrealistically, even if they somehow retained the Donbas region against all trends, they have now mortgaged their assets to Western interests and must pay back huge loans that were called “aid” in the Western press. The most impoverished country in Europe will be stripped for parts and exploited to work on land and factories and offices that are owned by foreign interests.
There is not going to be a fair or good outcome for Ukrainian people. They are the victims of larger and deeper forces than the mere terms of some peace deal proposal. The sooner the war ends, the better.
Would you rather Kyviv be flattened? The side that has lost a war doesn’t usually get to dictate terms.
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You’re right, only the pro-genocidal white supremacist West gets to decide that Ukraine should still fight after losing 3 entire militaries, sacrificing most of their military aged citizens, and having their production decimated by a vastly superior military. Only the West gets to decide that Nazis should be funded, armed, and trained openly.
And you pro-genocide Amerikkkan propagandists don’t get to dictate to Ukraine to fight to the last Ukrainian for American interests.
so brave
So stupid to support a dictator
So you admit being stupid for supporting a dictator who banned opposition parties, shut down free media, and cancelled elections?
Putin that applies to, not Zelenskyy.
Ah things that happened in Ukraine apply to Russia. That’s some impressive galaxy brain logic you’ve got going.
Who lost though?
I mean looking at Russia death count, economy, status, and making NATO stronger. I say Russia has.
The Ukraine lost. It’s joever.
Now they’re going to concede even more of the territories they were carrying out their Nazi ethnic cleansing on.
Yeah so why should Russia dictate the terms?
Because Russia won the war.
Really? Seems to me like they were trying to capture kiev and depose the government and quickly set up one friendly to them. You think that’s happened?
One has to be gullible beyond belief to believe in the premise that Russia was trying to capture Kiev with 100k troops. In fact, we now have admissions from Ukrainians themselves that Russian aim was to get Ukraine to accept negotiations in Istanbul. This was almost achieved, but the west sabotaged them and here we are now. The terms Ukraine would have received at the time were immeasurably better than anything it can possibly hope for today.
It makes no sense as a diversion. Way too much effort for that. They thought they’d face little resistance, similar to Crimea.
Here’s a game theory analysis on the causes of the war. https://youtu.be/pBwT-5z9R5A
Of course Russia’s aims were to get Ukraine to accept their terms in Istanbul, namely that they get to keep what they’ve stolen. Fundamentally the same offer in the headline here.
It makes perfect sense as a diversion, and plenty of military experts explained how this diversion pinned large parts of Ukrainian army in the west while Russia secured positions in the east.
Here’s a game theory analysis on the causes of the war. https://youtu.be/pBwT-5z9R5A
The fact that you get your ideas about the war from these sorts of youtube channels as opposed to people with actual military experience explains why you believe in nonsensical things.
Of course Russia’s aims were to get Ukraine to accept their terms in Istanbul, namely that they get to keep what they’ve stolen. Fundamentally the same offer in the headline here.
The offer in Istanbul was completely different. It required Ukraine to implement Minsk agreements which both Ukraine and the west claimed to support, and to stay neutral. Now, Ukraine is losing large parts of its territory, and the deal will only get worse. At least learn a bit about the subject you’re attempting to opine on.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/pBwT-5z9R5A
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
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of course it’s a lemmy.ml account
First of all that’s not a argument, and second of all you’re on lemmy.ml Braniac.
Apparently at least 134 lemmy users who claim to support Ukraine seem to think that yes, Ukraine should be flattened rather than have peace. With friends like these, who needs enemies? But then it’s pretty clear that most of them don’t actually care about Ukrainian people, since it’s fine with them that Ukrainians who want nothing to do with it are being conscripted and forced to fight against their will and die so long as that mean old Putler doesn’t get his way!
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Oh man, love this idea. I’m gonna try it on my bank. “Here’s the deal, I keep all the money that I’ve already stolen, and you have to agree not to call the cops or hire any additional security.” Brilliant.
Not sure what the bank is supposed to get out of it though.
Plus they’re asking for more money that they haven’t stolen yet. Russia doesn’t even control large parts of the territory it’s decided to annex.
Maybe if you were producing three times more shells than the whole of NATO, you could pull that off.
A Truce and not a Treaty?
So Russia will get a break to regroup and in exchange Ukraine is expected to pull out of contested areas so Russia can get a running start on the rest of Ukraine when the truce falls apart?This is a paranoid fantasy based on propaganda from American shills.
Even the last peace negotiations didn’t include any demands for annexing the breakaway republics (who have no interest in being part of a Nazi state that tried to ethnically cleanse them), it only asked that they be left alone as independent states. The UK prime minister, Boris Johnson ordered Ukraine to refuse after they were initially going to accept. Now Russia has been forced to annex them and the deal is even worse for Ukraine. “contested areas” my arse. These people want self-determination. Russia doesn’t want any more of Ukraine.
It’s rich you complaining about propaganda.
Yeah, people could listen to all of us “American Shills”, or they could just believe their eyes. Russia illegally and violently invaded Ukraine, a sovereign nation, capturing and killing men, women, and children, and they did it in front of all of us. Those are the facts, and you can confirm it with any independent news source.
What you think or what Russia says they want or will do is worth jack shit…
After Ukraine and their NATO backers blatantly violated peace treaties, Russia entered an already ongoing civil war where Ukraine was illegally and violently trying to ethnically cleanse a minority population within their own borders, killing men, women, and children while doing so, and they did it in front of all of us. Those are the facts, and you can confirm it with any independent news source.
Russia doesn’t have a long list of breaking peace agreements or invading sovereign countries. On the other hand, NATO, particularly the US, have a disgustingly long list of violently invading countries under paper thin pretexts and lies. It’s not Russia whose word isn’t worth jack shit.
Pinky promise I’ll stop fighting you if you just let me have all your stuff and stop asking other people for help.
The war will have to end with a peace deal or the destruction of one of the parties. Russia is doing fine while UA is falling apart.
What do you think is the best option for the people that live in Ukraine?
The best option is russia going home. The worst option is being made a part of the country ruled by the murderous psychopath.
I think it’s best not to focus too much on Putin. He is the head of a faction and only rules by the consent of the ruling class of Russia. He is adept at managing that position but when he dies there’s little reason to think that would mean a substantial change in policy.
Re: Russia going home, I agree that the best course is for the war to end, which of course necessitates the withdrawal of Russian troops.
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You found about this war 8 years after the Ukrainians began bombing children. You will never come to grips with reality. I don’t pity people like you any longer. 👍
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If Ukraine wanted a deal that was in their favor, they would have implemented the Minsk agreements that they signed, and most of the war would have been averted and they would have been able to keep Donbas. But for Azov it was always about ethnic cleansing Eastern Ukraine, so even that was a nonstarter.
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Ukraine dissolved the Minsk agreement by breaking it, moron
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So is this what someone told you and you believed it, or are you just straight making shit up?
Merkel (and others, but most famously Merkel) openly boasted about how the Minsk Agreements were designed to buy more time to arm Ukraine for the conflict they were intentionally and actively trying to provoke, and weren’t ever serious attempts at peace. What Russia did wrong in that case was to be apparently stupid enough to believe Ukraine and the western backers would honor the Minsk Agreements. Russia rolling into Ukraine was a result of the breaking of Minsk.
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Russia is the one engaged in ethnic cleansing.
You don’t know what started the conflict, do you? You think Russia invaded just for gits and shiggles.
Russia invaded for territory. It’s not unprecedented, it’s one of the most common reasons for a country to invade a neighbor, and they’ve done it before.
lmao okay bud maybe try reading something at some point
Sorry but most people don’t read Pravda
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Putin is so transparent. Let us keep what we have stolen and don’t enter into any type of agreement for mutual defense and we will stop shooting until we get our forces built back up.
It absolutely sucks that Ukraine was invaded. But this is what happens with war. The alternative is to continue dying, as they really don’t stand a chance with the Milk toast support from the west.
I hope they have a reasonable counter offer so that the innocent civilians can stop suffering, or they accept defeat.
I mean, Ukraine is losing. What kind of deal do you think they can negotiate?
And what possible way has Ukraine lost this war?
Russia’s goal was to topple Ukrainian government and see his complete control over the entire country in 3 days.
Here we are, 3 years into the war and Russia has lost something like 14,000 vehicles, over half a million casualties, and what have they achieved exactly?
Besides turtle tank technology of course.
They are literally losing territory. They even lost Avdiivka earlier this year, one their biggest fortresses. Are you seriously arguing that they are somehow winning?
These folks would be like “here is how Hitler can still win” in 1945
Why do you believe Russia thought it would control all of UA in 3 days? That doesn’t match their actual military strategy, their stated goals, or their diplomatic behavior.
Instead, all signs point to Russia looking to force an early diplomatic agreement that secured the Donbas, with the Kiev push acting as both a way to split UA’s resources and place pressure for agreement.
This also roughly lines up with the Western intervention to prevent a diplomatic agreement within days of the invasion.
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Best deal they’re likely to get, so of course the coup government is going to wipe their ass with it and choose Berlin 1945. I’m sure all the conscripts and their families will love that. I hope I’m wrong, but we’ve stopped them from surrendering before. Thinking in Blackrock terms, why let them stop now when land prices have so much lower to fall?
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Yes, the opposition to ww1-style meat grinders fought for the benefit of military and real estate companies is a typical giveaway. You on the other hand would be calling people pinkos for protesting the Vietnam war, and Saddam Lovers 30 years after that.
I always wonder if these people realize they would be violently opposed to the civil rights movement I’d they were alive then.
That’s some impressive cognitive dissonance, to say opposing oppression and “might makes right” is equivalent to opposing the civil rights movement
Oh yea you’re really “opposing oppression” by giving unlimited weapons to famously corrupt self avowed neo nazis because they happen to be opposed to your geopolitical ally. The really impressive cognitive dissonance is describing literally anything America has done in the last 80 years as “opposing oppression”.
You guys are the ones supporting press ganging 75 year olds and dropping them into the meat grinder so a bunch of pentagon consultants dont have to admit theyve been lying their ass off about every aspect of the war for years. How’s that for oppression.
Also love to accuse the other person of trying to use “might makes right” arguments while actively trying to build a military alliance to surround Russia with nukes while calling them the aggressor.
Reporter: [REDACTED]
Reason: Spreading disinformation (Zelenskyy, the Jew, is not a Nazi)This is like saying racism is over because Obama. If the Gaza genocide has taught us anything, it’s that there are fascist Jews.
At the most generous, one might argue that Zelenskyy is an actor who played a TV president, and then, in Forrest Gump style, found himself president in real life, and got steamrolled by the imperial core compradors & fascists who are really in charge of the country.
- The U.S. Did Not Defeat Fascism in WWII, It Discretely Internationalized It
- History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV
- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript
- CouterPunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2022: Evidence of US-Backed Coup in Kiev
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
Just read the comment report you made, were you born such a little worm or does it take considerable practice?
MODDDDDDSSS HEXBEARS ARE POSTING AGAIN MODDDDSSSSDo you have anything of substance to add?
:smuglord: “you’re from Hexbear” isn’t an argument
and I didn’t have to look at yours to know you’re a lib
Why because they’re the only one not suggesting “Russia should abaondon their two year long successful military operataion because that’s what I, a whiny American liberal, want.”
“successful”
It has been very successful from a high-level strategic point of view. It caused Western powers to use a number of their financial nuclear options, to little to no effect. It has strained military productive capacity in those same powers, which they’re currently trying to turn into a new wave of militarization, but this runs counter to the fact that they are now heavily deindustrialized and the same forces that deindustrialized their countries are now in charge. The Russian economy has actually improved, particularly with investments in productive capacity. Russia has effectively annexed the Donbas region and is destroying UA’s military capacity, largely based on Soviet stockpiles, fascist shock troops, and increasingly weary conscripts.
It’s not Russia’s original strategic goal but it’s going pretty well for them.
you are looking at things from a very weird angle. none of that is remotely true
Most of what I said is just basic facts anyone can confirm, e.g. banning Russia from SWIFT.
Can you tell me what, in particular, is false?
I suppose easily verifiable reality probably would seem like a “weird angle” when you’re not used to ever seeing it.
I could but you have no intention of listening and I have no intention of wasting my time
Average imperial core lemmitor lib counterargument.
If this was the deal after Russia annexed the Crimean Peninsula, I could see it being ok. However, this is the second invasion in a decade.
What keeps Russia from invading a decade later?
Not having Ukraine join NATO while saying “hey we might give ukraine nukes that could hit Moscow in 4 minutes”
Somehow missile flight time to St Petersburg (also happens to be where I’m from) weren’t an existential threat that lead to an invasion back when Finland joined NATO. Maybe there’s some other factor?
Not to play into Hexbear stereotypes, but unless there are some dramatic political changes in Ukraine, I’d rather Russia invade Ukraine again in 10 years to be honest.
I wouldn’t trust Nazis with nukes.
Taking everything you say at face value, the options for Ukraine are:
- Take a deal that maybe you can’t trust, but it at least gives you time to breathe.
- Keep fighting, and with the war going how it is eventually lose more than what you’ve already lost.
- Attempt to draw other states into the conflict so that you have a shot at what might be considered a victory, likely years more down the road under the best of circumstances.
There is no justification for 2, and 3 is highly unlikely – if other states haven’t entered the war already, they’re not going to do so now.
Yeah point 1 is why I support a peace deal along current lines, maybe with a dmz with UN peacekeepers or something idk. Ukraine is the one getting invaded, they need time to breathe far more than Russia does.
Even if you think Russia can’t be trusted and will invade again a few years of peace is better than ceaseless war
Why would they lose more than they’ve already lost? Their expectation is that western aid will continue, allowing them an advantage over Russia in the long term. Russia thinks Western aid will dry up (maybe due to trump being elected) so their anticipated outcome is better in the long run. When the question of enduring western aid is answered, there will be less of a difference in expectations, meaning continued conflict isn’t advantages since it’d cost more than both sides gains expectations.
I highly recommend looking into the game theory behind the war. https://youtube.com/@gametheory101
I highly recommend reading what people with actual military experience have to say instead of random propagandists on youtube https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/attritional-art-war-lessons-russian-war-ukraine
I agree subject matter experts are important. That’s why I linked to a professor on international relations and war who wrote a book on the subject.
It’s like linking to an economist discussing the subject of quantum physics.
Hmmm? Do you know what game theory is? It explicitly deals with incentive structures and is how academics decode nations motives and goals.
Everybody knows what game theory is, however the discussion is about military capability and strategy which is best left to people who have experience in these things. Also, game theory makes plenty of assumptions which make it of questionable use in the real world. For example, game theory assumes that all actors are rational, and it’s pretty clear that the west has not been making rational decisions throughout this war.
Here is an alternative Piped link(s):
https://piped.video/@gametheory101
Piped is a privacy-respecting open-source alternative frontend to YouTube.
I’m open-source; check me out at GitHub.
What keeps Russia from taking more territory now until there’s no Ukraine left?
The Ukrainian army and equipment supplied by NATO members I guess?
Ukraine’s Kharkov counteroffensive fizzled. Ukraine’s counteroffensive from last year has lost almost all territorial gains (and then some). In what world does Ukraine stand a chance of reclaiming their lost territories?
I was answering a question which had nothing to do with reclaiming territory?
Russia could take all of Ukraine rapidly if they began using Western-style bombing campaigns. Every day they make the decision that the status quo of slowly destroying UA’s military capabilities and building infrastructure in the Donbas is more appealing.
I am hopeful that a peace deal can be made before the Western style bombing campaign strategy becomes more favorable.
The peak of that was during the disastrous offensive Ukraine tried doing last year, and it’s been dwindling rapidly ever since. Even western media now admits that the west lacks the industrial capacity needed to fight a war of attrition on this scale.
Oh, is it because decades of incompetence and corruption weakened their already crumbling military? Their lack of a strong economy to support the war effort? Is it because they’re relying on Soviet leftovers instead of modern equipment? The fact their enemy is a motivated, supplied with actually decent munitions by modern/rich countries, and has a competent chain of command?
What do I win?
You win living in an alternate universe award, even western media admits none of that is true now.
lol gottem.
I have to admit, it is amusing to watch bootlickers fail to keep up with The Narrative. It’s understandable when they’re only a couple talking points behind, because it must be hard for anyone to keep up with all that shifting bullcrap. But often enough I’ll still see lines trotted out like “Russians are fighting with shovels and are amazed to see paved roads.” It’s very rare but every now and then it’s still possible to come across someone who brings up the Ghost of Kiev and still believes it.
That’s the thing with propaganda, it can work for a while, but material reality always wins in the end. I find liberals in particular tend to be susceptible to this because their ideology is rooted in idealism. There’s this idea that you can just invent reality in your mind, and the material world will conform to it.
Not giving Russia a political reason to for starters.
Russia can claim anything is a political reason. Russia and a lot of western nations have more Nazis than Ukraine, but Russia still used that as a justification.
And Russia will call damn near anyone a Nazi if it’s in their interest.
They will.
Russia is running on fumes and Ukraine is continuing to bolster up. Russia needs time to reup
This has been the narrative since shortly after the war began. All that’s happened since is Russia has slowly advanced.
shouldn’t they have won like a year ago at this point? lol
Pick one: Russia is running on fumes, or Russia should have won a year ago.
The coherent opinion here is that it’s a slow, grinding war and the side that has lost more and more territory as it continued will continue to do so.
Well, that is currently changing as Ukraine is now able to target military targets inside Russia, disabling their supply lines. Ukraine has been restricted to use the supplied weapons systems they got. They should be able to use the full force of these weapons and drive the Russians out. NATO is being way too restrictive with an invading county bordering on our territory. Russia has shown they are not to be trusted. We should supply Ukraine with a few tactical nukes, for defense, and see what happens when the kid that’s been bullied suddenly also has the same big guns.
Shouldn’t the Leopard tanks have turned the tide of battle? Or the NATO equipment and training? Or the other round of NATO equipment and training? Or the MANPADS? Or the third shipment of NATO equipment and training? Or the F-16s that are totally coming any day now (which will definitely turn the tide of the war guise! It’s not silly to make a plane that can’t handle dirt on the airway)? What about the drone tactics Ukraine used to terrorbomb russian civilian targets, wasn’t that supposed to turn the tide of the war? What about the bombing of the Crimea bridge, how come that didn’t turn the tide of the war?
You guys keep saying Russia is about to run out of equipment, but they still have stocks and stocks of shells, meanwhile NATO countries are struggling to rearm after having donated so much equipment to Ukraine. Maybe there isn’t a wunderwaffe that will win the war, and maybe it’s senseless to continue this meat-grinder. The Ukrainians don’t want to fight, they have to be forcibly conscripted.
But! If you think they should continue to die for some vague cause, why don’t you go volunteer? They need bodies. The average age is 43, so you won’t be turned away for being “too old” or “too young”. Why don’t you volunteer for Ukraine?
Meanwhile in the real world
- https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-army-15-percent-larger-when-attacked-ukraine-us-general-2024-4
- https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/attritional-art-war-lessons-russian-war-ukraine
- https://www.politico.com/news/2024/04/11/christopher-cavoli-russian-military-losses-00151718
- https://www.cnn.com/2024/03/10/politics/russia-artillery-shell-production-us-europe-ukraine/index.html
- https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68823399
- https://raport.valisluureamet.ee/2024/en/1-russian-armed-forces-and-the-war-in-ukraine/1-3-russian-military-industry/
lol notice there’s no response to this
What’s amazing to me is that this stuff is now openly reported in western media, and we still have people running around talking about Russia collapsing any day now. I suspect that a lot of the people who got really invested in project Ukraine stopped paying attention a while back, and they’re just regurgitating the talking points they memorized two years ago.
You stupid motherfuckers have been saying this shit since the war began without even the slightest bit of realization that Russia is an actual industrialized, manufacturing power, while the west has shipped almost all of its actual production to China and SEA
Ukraine is literally constantly running out of shit despite the entirety of NATO dumping military supplies on them and they’re the ones conscripting 40+ year old men but lol “Russia is running on fumes”
“Why hasn’t Russia won yet” because they’re winning, stupid, they are winning a war of attrition, the fact that they’re winning doesn’t mean they can just magically teleport troops into Kiev and declare Game Over. This isn’t some fucking paradox game, moron. The winning move is to keep grinding Ukraine into dust, not whatever dumbass shit you think Russia needs to be doing to win the war.
I can’t stress enough how fucking stupid you are if you think Ukraine’s current conscription reality is in any way indicative of them “bolstering up”
This isn’t a serious proposal and it’s not even really meant for Ukraine to even consider. It’s meant for Ukraine’s Western allies who will start getting bored and antsy and may start applying pressure on Ukraine to look for a deal. Putin knows he just needs to outlast fickle Western governments, or wait until Russian-backed right-wing governments get into power, then Ukraine will lose its support and likely crumble.
Case in point - all the tankie fucks all over the thread.
These have been their demands for capitulation for a long time. Why do media even reporting on this?
These are actually more favorable terms for UA. For example, Russia previously demanded denazification of UA, and that is not part of this new proposal.
This is likely a “last best offer”, or a prelude to that last best offer, before Russia makes major pushes over the next year.
That’s like saying 14 lashes is more favorable than 15 lashes.
And the denazification claim was a stupid one in the first place because how does Russia verify that Ukraine is denazified? If Ukraine kicks out of the government all the suppose nazis, is Ukraine denazified? What if they all denounce nazism. Does that count? What’s stopping Russia from putting more people in their “nazi” list? It was a vague demand and shouldn’t have been a demand in the first place.
14 lashes is more favorable than 15 lashes, though I would suggest anyone reading this should compare the new peace deal proposal to previous ones and decide for themselves whether they’re the same.
And the denazification claim was a stupid one in the first place because how does Russia verify that Ukraine is denazified?
The fascists in Ukraine are Banderites that run the gamut for neo-Nazi aesthetics. They became much more organized as part of Euromaidan and quickly became the shock troops against the Donbas, the people willing to kill fellow Ukrainians because they had their own fascist reasons to justify themselves. The UA government supported these groups even as those groups maintained relative autonomy because they terrorized the people in The Donbas and engaged separatist fighters. Over time, the UA government became friendlier and friendlier to these fascists, starting with legal campaigns against Russian speakers - what Westerners would call ethnic cleansing or cultural genocide when it’s their enemies doing it - and culminating in these fascists operating at high levels of government, particularly the MoD.
It’s hard to say exactly what a peace deal denazification would look like, mostly because despite Orientalist myths about bloodthirsty Russians, they’ve actually given in repeatedly when others break their agreements. It could be anything from formally disbanding the fascist units and command structure without criminalizing them to requiring their detention and military tribunals to modifying UA’s core governmental structure to ban support for Bandera.
Due to Western-prompted balking at all peace deals, even negotiating at a table, denazification has also come to mean destroying Banderites militarily. Perhaps they think they’ve made enough progress. Either way, the demand is missing.
What’s stopping Russia from putting more people in their “nazi” list?
The original proposals sought neutrality and independence guarantees for Ukraine that were guaranteed by a range of other countries. We would need to see an actual text where UA returns to the bargaining table to have any idea how a new status quo would be enforced.
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Putins pledges are not worth the ink used to make them
Go sign up for the ukranian military if you want to see more grist for the meat grinder, coward
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Liberals try not to be homophobic/transphobic for two fucking seconds challenge.
You are just like the Zionists that say the same about people standing with the people of Gaza.
I would say more but it would go against this instance civility rules, you’ll just have to get creative with your imagination to know how we feel about the likes of you.
No u. You’re clearly a nazi, so you’ll fit in just fine with Azov.
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Because advocating for it to continue is sending others to their death. Same energy as wanting president’s children on the front line, because without that understanding, people are way more willing to advocate continuing slaughter
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The options are a peace deal or a destruction of one of the parties, and Russia is not going to be destroyed by this.
What direction would you prefer for the people living in Ukraine?
whatever russia says, they mean to do the opposite. they’ve been pulling this nonsense from the start and this is no different, and we know this because they are STILL THERE. if they wanted peace, THEY’D LEAVE. ukraine doesn’t have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can’t pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded. there is no logic to this argument. it’s like ordering cheese and wondering why you are served cheese. it’s plain and dumb.
Isn’t it interesting that the official US gov line on Gaza, a sealed off prison zone currently experiencing a second Holocaust that the zionist entity has no intention of stopping, is that “Hamas could end this any time”
But the nazi coup government of Ukraine, which doesn’t even have public support and which has rejected every peace offering for years and have broken multiple treaties because they just couldn’t stop slaughtering their own people in the east…they are the smol beans with nowhere to go.
You have internalized a perfectly backwards propagandistic framing of the situation: It is the Kyiv regime that can end this tomorrow by simply accepting that the people of the Donbas region do not want to be ruled by them. Russia has no interest in western Ukraine, no interest in ruling a bunch of people who hate them, they want a buffer zone so they don’t have a warmongering authoritarian power’s nukes on their border
. I mean shit, we’ve been bombing their nuclear detection radar stations lately. If that’s not the action of a deranged empire playing with the lives of the entire world, nothing is. Can you fucking imagine what the reaction would be if they were doing that to us? We would have scoured the planet of life by now.ukraine doesn’t have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can’t pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded
You are right in that they have nowhere to go but it’s because NATO won’t let them accept peace but will force them to keep fighting until that last working class Ukrainian is dead. Russia is literally offering them a way out of more bloodshed right now, literally the topic of this post. They also could have avoided all of this by simply honoring the Minsk Agreements, but it was Ukraine breaking those agreements (including by shelling their own people in the east) that led to Russia “invading” by entering a conflict that had already been initiated by Ukraine trying to ethnically cleanse the east. It’s funny you start by saying that Russia is untrustworthy, but Ukraine and NATO are the ones who very explicitly and admittedly broke their agreements.
The Ukrainian state forces it’s people to fight and does not allow them to leave. It has a choice and that choice is to listen to it’s people and accept peace.
If you think they should fight despite the fact that they do not wish to, then go volunteer yourself. Otherwise let the people decide for themselves.
Also your suggestion that they should leave is funny. I mean yeah if we’re in Fantasyland sure, they should leave. I also think Putin should give everyone a pony. Sadly we live in a world where Putin hasn’t given me a pony, a world were parties doesn’t give up leverage before a negotiation.
You guys keep talking about Russians being untrustworthy, but it was Ukraine that broke treaties https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minsk_agreementswhatever russia says, they mean to do the opposite
This is silly. Do you think Russian politicians are always just having fun playing this word game or something?
they’ve been pulling this nonsense from the start and this is no different, and we know this because they are STILL THERE. if they wanted peace, THEY’D LEAVE.
That doesn’t make any sense. Their occupation is leverage. Giving up leverage always puts you in a worse negotiating position. The original causes of the invasion are also unresolved. What you are essentially suggesting is that Russia capitulate for the third time re: Ukraine and hope for a different outcome. The reason they invaded in the first place is that nobody in leadership, rationally, thinks they should fall for that again.
The outcome you would like to see is likely impossible. So what possible outcome do you want?
ukraine doesn’t have a choice, they have nowhere to go. they can’t pull out of the conflict because they are literally the one being invaded. there is no logic to this argument. it’s like ordering cheese and wondering why you are served cheese. it’s plain and dumb.
I think this might just be a misunderstanding. Of course Ukraine can’t un-invade itself. And I agree that Ukraine doesn’t have much choice, but I think so in a different way. They don’t have much choice because they are not really a sovereign county. Their terms are heavily influenced by Western powers. The original attempts at a peace deal we blown up by Westwen leaders. This is unfortunate for the people of Ukraine, as they don’t deserve to die just so that Western countries can try to stick it to Russia.
I think the best outcome is to achieve a peace deal as quickly as possible.
‘Russia is not going to X’ is a very weak argument, and over the last 10 years Russia crossed many of those Xs, regardless of you thinking it’s not going to.
Ukraine is far from spotless on the treaty-upholding-front. The current government was installed by the US, which is in direct breach of the Budapest Memorandum. The government has broken Minsk I and II which was a large part of the russian justification for the SMO.
But the X here is not about a Russian foreign policy decision per se, but about their overall military standing as part of their invasion of Ukraine.
Yeah, they lost black sea fleet almost completely, burned way over 30k lives to take over ruins of Bakhmut, about the same to destroy and 'take over’s Avdiivka, got royally fucked with the assault on Vovchansk and Sumy direction, emptied their stock of towed artillery and APCs, had to borrow and from China, Iran and fucking North Korea, got sanctioned so much that rouble is now in free trade with yuan, committed genocide and ecocide, and generally lost over half a million of soldiers while aiming for week-long speed run to kill Nazi Jew zelenski. But sure this only made them stronger.
Upd: oh boi do I forget to mention that for half a year Ukraine was effectively feigning of f the entire Russian army while having close to no weapons, and delivering majority of strikes with $500/piece plastic toys
In your first paragraph, you repeat an assessment handed down to Western propaganda. Were it true, it would be very surprising to find the reality that Russia dominates the Black Sea and Ukraine and NATO (we’ll ignore Turkey, who doesn’t really care lol) has no presence there. It would also be surprising to discover that the overall Russian economy is better than pre-war and that they are having no manpower issues, and are, in fact, now advancing on Ukrainian positions.
This is understandable, as the false prospect of a Ukrainian win is important for the propaganda apparatus that actually cares far more about hurting Russia than securing a future for Ukrainians.
But all of this is somewhat moot because it bears little relation to the point I made. Or maybe I am missing something? Please be explicit.
I repeat literally assessments of Russians, and claims of Putin himself. Domination of the black sea surely means evacuation of remains of Crimean fleet to Novorossisk, and almost complete absence of russian military in the black and Azov sea - confirmed by satellite imagery. Russia tried to turn hunger into weapon trying to block ships passing to Ukrainian ports, and failed - their unilateral withdrawal from the Istanbul agreement
I agree that russia braced their economics very well and handled the sanctioned better than most anticipated. However, the pressure mounts and the government is forced to raise taxes - surely not a sign of a blooming economy. Recent Ukrainian targeted hits at major refineries, turning Russia to import fuels - this is important both in military and economical contexts.
What I say is Russia is worse than it was at the beginning, despite territorial gains.
I repeat literally assessments of Russians, and claims of Putin himself. Domination of the black sea surely means evacuation of remains of Crimean fleet to Novorossisk, and almost complete absence of russian military in the black and Azov sea - confirmed by satellite imagery. Russia tried to turn hunger into weapon trying to block ships passing to Ukrainian ports, and failed - their unilateral withdrawal from the Istanbul agreement
Russians are people like anyone else. You, of course, can therefore find them saying just about anything. There is little overlap between what you have said and what Putin had said though I don’t know why I should care about that.
I think you may be falling victim to propaganda when it comes to the Black Sea. Ukraine has nothing there. Nada. Zilch. The stories that are accurate describe the targeting and destruction of Russian vessels. Logically from what I just said, these are true. But Russia maintains its dominant presence, particurly in the Azov Sea.
I am interested, or maybe anticipating entertainment, by your idea that satellite imagery confirms your claim. My experience with such ideas is with teenagers pretending to know how to analyze raster imagery and lying through their teeth about it because it suits the needs of propaganda. This is what often gets filtered into the press. Please show me your Black Sea dataset with no Russian vessels, I would love to see it. I can even analyze it for the presence of vessels if you give me the data. Preferably, tiled GeoTIFF. I suspect, realistically, that you have third-hand information from propagandists, and can give me no such information. I anticipate disappointment.
I agree that russia braced their economics very well and handled the sanctioned better than most anticipated. However, the pressure mounts and the government is forced to raise taxes - surely not a sign of a blooming economy.
That is no such thing. Under a forced national industrial investment regime, a capitalist government raising taxes should be expected. There is a Russian neoliberal faction that threatens to throw a wrench into things but they have been forced into less stupid positions by circumstance.
Recent Ukrainian targeted hits at major refineries, turning Russia to import fuels - this is important both in military and economical contexts.
Important, yes. But why think it is good for Ukraine? More pressure on Russia only increases the likelihood that they adopt a typical sociopathic Western war strategy of complete destruction civilian life. That is something that has not actually happened. It’s something I was wrong about in 2022. I did not think that Russia, a regional capitalist power, would use such restrained tactics. I had to rethink my understanding of Western psychology and militarism, as it is actually qualitatively different (and morw horrible) than every other instance. I had, falsely, projected cold Western logic onto others.
What I say is Russia is worse than it was at the beginning, despite territorial gains.
All economic indicators disagree, particularly when it comes to industrial capacity.
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Russia has repeatedly promised not to invade Ukraine, right up to the point where they did. First in 2014, then in 2020. There is no use signing any kind of treaty with a government like that, or else the Ukrainian people are going to go through this again in a couple of years.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to when you say Russia promised not to invade in 2014. 2014 is the year of Euromaidan’s aftermath, of the illegitimacy of Ukraine’s government and, namely, the Russian annexation of Crimea. Russia entered Crimea in 2014, military. Depending on your perspective, it literally invaded Ukraine in 2014.
The war will end with either the destruction of one party or a peace deal. You are implying there should not be a peace deal because Russia is untrustworthy. Then you must be, against all odds and material reality, hoping that Ukraine defeats the entirety of Russia.
To all the people who believe Ukraine should continue fighting, why do you not volunteer?
The ukranians do not wish to fight this war. They have to be forced. The men are not allowed to leave, the average age in the army is 43 and the army has to forcibly conscript people to force them to the front 1 2 3 going so far as to raid high school gymsIt is clear the average ukrainian does not wish to fight. If you believe this war must continue, why do you not volunteer? Surely you are not that much of a coward that you find it acceptable people should be forced to be thrown into a meatgrinder?
In my opinion this,
To all the people who believe Ukraine should continue fighting, why do you not volunteer?
Is a pretty lazy argument. Most people have no interest in shedding blood, nor are they Ukrainian or Russian.
I think explaining western encroachment and that a lot of the modern militant Ukrainians are ideological descendants of Bandera and full-on fascists is the better way to go.
Fair point. If this were a situation were I was trying to convince the other part, then I would agree with you, my question doesn’t create any strong argument and it is quite reductive. I’ve used it as a sort of gotcha in discussions when we reached the ideological level (russia is fascists genocider badman!) But to be quite honest I am not asking this as a gotcha now. I’ve asked it so much and never gotten an answer and I’ve gotten curious about what the honest answer is. I’d like to know how people can scream about fascism and against peace, while not being willing to fight themselves. If I truly believed the war in Ukraine was an existential threat, and was somehow able to square that with the fact ukrainians weren’t willing to fight, and able to square that with the idea that was must go on, then I can’t see how I wouldn’t also be volunteering.
The question as I’ve posed it is flawed, it requires that we accept the people of Ukraine do not wish to fight and that the war is lost - I feel like I’ve presented a solid case for both, but it’s still sort of a prerequisite - and anyone who agrees on those two fronts, is more than likely a person who is more informed than the person who thinks the war should continue. The venn diagramme overlap of people who can observe the basic facts, but still think the war should go on, is quite small.
Yeah I definitely get where you’re coming from
Why wouldn’t you argue for the aggressor to leave? Seems kind of backwards to tell the country that was invaded to roll over and just give up to its fascist neighbor.
I’m not arguing for anything. I’m asking a question and that question isn’t wether or not it is morally right for Russia to invade Ukraine. I am asking you: Since the ukrainian people do not wish to continue this war, but you think they should, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Ukraine should not accept this peace deal, if you think the war should continue, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Russia is so horrendous that Ukraine cannot accept peace, why are you not volunteering?
“You oppose Russia yet you don’t want to go fight them yourself, why?” is a ridiculous question that you’re pretending is a rational one. You’re intellectually dishonest af here, and you say you’re “not arguing” simply because you’re putting your absolute bullshit in the form of a question.
Once again not an answer, but I see the issue, you’re illiterate! It seems like you have found other words than the ones I’d written. The question was “Since you think the war in Ukraine is so important that it should continue despite the fact that ukrainians themselves do not want to continue fighting, why are you not volunteering for the war?”
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Initially I asked a question and you decided to engage by not answering the question, you’re now offended that I want you to answer the question. If you had no intention of ever answering the question, why engage at all? You call it bullshit, but of us two I am the only to have played with open cards, I have been honest and forthright with my intention from the get go. I have even answered your questions! Yet you somehow feel that I have deceived you. Are you really so simple as to be able to feel deceived by a person who outright tells you what it is they want?
I’ll explain now why it’s such a dishonest question. It’s a false equivalence that sets the bar for agreeing with an opinion at being willing to die for it yourself. That is incorrect, logically speaking. The bar for agreeing with this opinion would be whether or not I’d be willing to fight and die for MY country if it was being invaded by Russians. That’s the core dishonesty of your question, that if I support their cause, I should be willing to fight and die for it myself.
I also wouldn’t personally say that every last able-bodied man should fight. Say we have a Ukrainian man whose brother was killed, his brother’s wife is disabled, and she has 6 kids. I would have nothing to say about what that individual man should do, and if he chose to help his sister in law get her orphaned children out of Ukraine, away from the war, and take care of them, that’s his honorable choice. That brings us to the second dishonest part of your question, it sets the implied bar at a point where if one supports a country that continues fighting for its freedom against a violent aggressor, that we must naturally support the notion that every individual in that country should fight as well. It’s taking a macro level question and trying to apply it to every individual; attempting to turn a nuanced opinion into a black and white one by disregarding the contextual realities at the individual level.
Your dishonesty is embedded in the question.
And my question is why are you putting everything on the people who were invaded and not the aggressor? Are the Russian people not also being senselessly killed in a war started by their government?
Weasel, you’re evading the question. My answer: Russia has presented a peace deal. Now answer my question you coward.
I’m a capybara, king of the rats, thank you very much. The question is why won’t you condemn the aggressor and stop putting the onus of peace on the people who are being murdered by an aggressor?
Thrice you have been asked a simple question, thrice you have attempted to evade an answer. You’re pathetic.
Or is it that you cannot read what I have written? It would seem so, your question is a repetition, not acknowledging the answer it has received.
It is clear that you are psychotic, lusting for ukrainian blood. You wish for them to die in a meat grinder they do not wish to enter. A meat grinder of a war against an opponent who has offered a peace deal. You seem to think they should not accept this deal, so why don’t you go fight? The ukrainian people obviously do not wish to fight, they no longer see a reason to continue this war, since they must be forced to fight. Yet you think they should continue, so go support them the best way you can: with your body. But you won’t, and you won’t answer why, for the answer would require you to admit a deeper rot in your soul. Shame on you and shame on you for attempting to utilize these sad attempts at debatelord parlor tricks. I asked my question in good faith, I was genuinely qurious, yet from the moment you responded you have done naught but ignore this simple question.
Also you’re really bad at doing what you’re trying to do, it’s incredibly obvious how much a shitty little turd you’re being
The coughing will begin in three days.
I think it’s very clear who is the psychotic one here. Thank you for the conversation, Prime Minister Chamberlain.
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Replying to a question with an unrelated question is rude and derails the conversation. Fucking answer them directly you fucking coward.
The question is why won’t you condemn the aggressor and stop putting the onus of peace on the people who are being murdered by an aggressor?
The people being murdered… Oh, you mean the Russian-speaking population of Eastern Ukraine? The ones who the openly fascist banderite government (that coupe’d the democratically elected government in 2014) were trying to ethnically cleanse when Russia stepped in and prevented it? Yes, I do support those people of Donbas, and seeing as they support Russia, you should too if you care about innocent people getting murdered. Similarly, I condemn the aggressors, the aforementioned banderite Ukrainian fascists and their NATO backers.
I’m not the person you were asking, but yes, I also support the people of Western Ukraine, the vast majority of whom do not want to fight in this war but are being press ganged, literally kidnapped off the street by the Ukrainian government and shipped off to be cannon fodder and die on the front line. I fully support them and advocate for the immediate end of this war so that no more of them will die needlessly in this senseless meat grinder that NATO and the Ukrainian government insist on perpetuating despite their inevitable loss. If you care about human life and if you care about justice, then you would completely support Ukraine immediately accepting this peace offer. If you think human life is cheap (especially if it’s foreign to you) and that Ukrainian working class people are expendable and should go ahead and die for the sake of lines on a map that favor western countries, then yeah, that would be in line with cheerleading for the Ukrainian government and opposing the offer of peace.
Because they’re arguing in bad faith.
You’re calling someone else a weasel while calling this “offer” a peace deal? Look in the mirror.
Also not an answer, try again.
I said what I said, you’re not in charge of shit here. Nobody needs to answer your stupid question first in order to speak their mind. How about you start by acknowledging that Russia is the fascist aggressor in this war, could stop it at any minute by returning to their own territory, and admitting that they’re simply the bad guys in this war? Can you say that?
It is literally a peace deal and you’re not answering because you know being honest about what you feel should be done here would reveal you to be the Internet Douglas Haig we all know you are.
The point is that many people caught up in the propaganda seem perfectly happy to let an infinite number of Ukrainians die for their project. It’s apparently very important to fight Russia with life and life (Ukrainian), but not so important that they’d take any risk themselves whatsoever. It speaks to both the dehumanization of the Ukrainian people, of treating them like fictional heroes rather than conscripts pushed around by larger forces, as well as the implicit sociopathy of the armchair warhawk. The hope, of course, is that the inconsistency prompts someone to actually question their own inconsistencies, as most people don’t think of themselves as warhawks or several times more human than a Ukrainian.
Though there are some other incorrect lines of thought in your comment.
Why wouldn’t you argue for the aggressor to leave?
That is not a human on this Lemmy server who can think and respond to the point. And even if you were in the room with some powerful person with the capacity to personally impact the outcome, your request would mean nothing because that’s not how geopolitics work.
These are not comparable things. Instead, this rhetoric is a thought-terminating cliche intended to recenter The Bad Guy ™ rather than address the point made.
Seems kind of backwards to tell the country that was invaded to roll over and just give up to its fascist neighbor.
Who is talking to countries? We are people talking to one another.
Thanks for addressing a lot of things I let slide for the sake of a good discussion, and thanks for doing it far more succinctly than I could’ve.
Glad I could be helpful!
You are very happy to let Ukrainians ve slaughtered by Putin. Everyone can see whaz instance you are on. Stop acting like you care about Ukraine. Your whole instance is full of licking Putins ass. Giving the genocidal dictator a part of the country with the people he all wants to murder is the worst outcome.
You are very happy to let Ukrainians ve slaughtered by Putin.
Please don’t invent positions on my behalf. I would prefer Ukrainians to live, thanks. My position prioritizes the common people of Ukraine over the interests of larger powers.
Everyone can see whaz instance you are on.
And?
Stop acting like you care about Ukraine. Your whole instance is full of licking Putins ass.
You are inventing fantasies rather than address the realities of what I’m saying. Please return to a real world discourse.
Giving the genocidal dictator a part of the country with the people he all wants to murder is the worst outcome.
Puting is just the head of a faction. It’s best not to focus too much on him, as you will risk falling for the false understanding that is Great Man Theory. If Putin died tomorrow, Russian policy would be very similar to what it is today, same as if Biden or Zelensky died. These are people whose power and actions depend on larger systems, not just personal whims.
That said I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Which people do you think Putin wants to murder? The people of the Donbas?
Okay, I told the Russian Federation to leave and they said no. Now what?
Fuck off hexbear. You are talking in bad faith. You want russia to win because you love dictatorships.
Oh look, a nazi. Scram!
Libs who think this offer is a bad thing, live in a completely invented reality
This deal is probably the last chance to save anything of Ukraine, and it will naturally be rejected because the west wants to fight this war to the last Ukrainian. People cheering this on really need to ask themselves what this was all for. Ukraine is in a far worse situation today than it was two years ago, and it will be in a worse situation with each and every day that passes. Western support peaked during the disastrous summer offensive last year, and Ukraine is now running out of trained and motivated soldiers. It’s obvious to anyone with a functioning brain what the end result of all this will be.
You think Russia will be able to take kiev now? Now that their military is badly mauled, they don’t have the element of surprise, and Ukraine has much more equipment and training than when the war began?
I think Russia would prefer not take Kiev nor western Ukraine in general: it’s full of Nazis who don’t want them there, and therefore virtually impossible to hold. It would become Russia’s Afghanistan II. I think they know better than fall for that US trap again.
Badly mauled is a weird way to say 15% larger than before the war started https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-army-15-percent-larger-when-attacked-ukraine-us-general-2024-4
Russia will very obviously be able to take Kiev and anything else it wants when Ukrainian army inevitably collapses. The reality is that the Ukraine was in its best position to make any positive change on the battlefront during the disastrous offensive last summer. That’s when the west cobbled all the support it could give, and Ukraine still had a large and motivated army. Western support is now drying up, meanwhile Ukrainian regime is running out of people to throw into the meat grinder.
and Ukraine has much more equipment and training than when the war began?
Literally the opposite is the case as even western media openly admits.
Badly mauled is a weird way to say 15% larger than before the war started
Larger in soldiers, not in weaponry. And that was achieved through conscription, which means pulling young people in a rapidly aging society away from some of the most productive years of their lives. And of course many of those young people will sadly return to civilian life injured or not at all.
We’ll see where things go now that Republicans have stopped blocking aid to Ukraine. Having the main supplier of military aid blocked blocked by legislative constipation does tend to make the front lines harder for Ukraine, yes.
Yes, larger in weaponry as well. It’s also completely false that Russian army is growing through conscription. Please don’t spread blatant misinformation here.
We’ll see where things go now that Republicans have stopped blocking aid to Ukraine. Having the main supplier of military aid blocked blocked by legislative constipation does tend to make the front lines harder for Ukraine, yes.
The circus with blocking the budget was just that. The real problem US has is that it lacks the industrial base to produce weapons at the necessary rate. Please educate yourself on the subject instead of regurgitating nonsense https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/attritional-art-war-lessons-russian-war-ukraine
“Likely”
“But you see, hohol, if you just let me win the war, then there will be peace!”
Ukraine has no hope of winning at this point. It is stupid not to accept the peace offer because they will never get a better deal. But NATO wouldn’t let them accept it even if the Ukrainian regime wanted to. That’s probably why Russia is even making the offer.
Why would NATO have any say in if they accept or not? What would the threat be if they do, they stop providing them with arms and ammunition? Surely, if Russia is indeed so benevolent, Ukraine wouldn’t need them going forward in this hypothetical peace?
Surely, if Russia is indeed so benevolent,
Who is calling Russia “benevolent”? In fact I specifically said that Russia is probably only making the offer because they know it won’t be accepted.
Ukraine wouldn’t need them going forward in this hypothetical peace?
Why wouldn’t they? I’m genuinely not sure why anyone would think such a thing. Like do you think that just because they tentatively accept this peace offer they will suddenly be fully propped up economically by Russia after having completely handed over their public assets to NATO countries, largely in exchange for the weapons that have allowed them to put up the resistance that they did against Russia? Do you think that countries exist in their own vacuum and there wouldn’t be massive repercussions (read: severe consequences) for breaking with the western countries they have relied on since 2014 and outright depended on since 2022? And that’s Ukraine as a whole irrespective of who is currently running it…
Most of that becomes secondary when you consider that the current government Ukraine (the ‘regime,’ if you will), the people who make it up, have an interest in maintaining their own positions, as is true for literally anyone holding a position of power. Above reasons aside, that current leadership of Ukraine would not remain the leadership long without NATO regardless of whether or not they accepted this offer if they didn’t have NATO backing. Said government and NATO are inextricably tied, said government only exists because of NATO. So I doubt that government wants to accept the peace offer either and isn’t necessarily in their best interests even if it absolutely is in the best interests of the Ukrainian people, especially the ones being forcibly conscripted to go die on the front in a war they don’t want to even be involved in.
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I wouldn’t worry about defending your thoughts. I found that certain people tend to overreact if someone presents a view that is mildly against theirs, even if it’s well thought out.
But their view is not well thought out, it’s actually pretty fucking dumb
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Ukraine already won. Russia has been shown to be inept in every military sense and basically they got owned by drones.
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