Russian President Vladimir Putin promised Friday to "immediately" order a ceasefire in Ukraine and start negotiations if Kyiv began withdrawing troops from the four regions annexed by Moscow in 2022 and renounced plans to join NATO. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy rejected what he called an ultimatum by Putin to surrender more territory.
Toying with NATO membership is the most surefire way to ensure the complete destruction of Ukraine.
I think many people have forgotten the brutality with which Western countries wage war. They see the (still very real) horrors in Ukraine and are told to think of them as dramatically terrible, unconscionable, in a way they have never treated Western actions, including literally NATO actions and/or major NATO member actions.
The United States destroyed virtually all of Iraq’s major civilian infrastructure during the Gulf War, then imposed sanctions that caused mass death, especially of children. Millions of deaths. When it returned in 2003 it again targeted civilian infrastructure and massive bombing campaigns, focusing on the complete destruction of all capabilities regardless of what cultural artifacts or population centers were demolished.
Now, I know how some propagandized thought patterns go. Some people reading this might think my point is to draw attention to a “who is worse?” competition. But this is not my point.
My point is that Russia has been and is entirely capable of waging that same kind of brutal, truly monstrous Western military campaign. They have chosen not to for a variety of reasons, though this restraint has been cracking since UA has started targeting Russian population centers.
A continued maximum pressure campaign that credibly threatens actual NATO membership for Ukraine (everyone knows it’s not currently credible) risks the war turning into one that is unrestrained, i.e. the destruction of civilian infrastructure, mass death, and upturning all of Ukrainian society.
The funny part is how obvious your lies are. Unless you think all the death and destruction in Ukraine is not actually that but just western propaganda… Which you probably do, based on your post history.
Because you claimed that russia can wage brutal wars but they haven’t so far, that they have showed restraint. And all the videos of hospitals and schools and residential buildings and Bucha, etc. Prove otherwise.
And no need to ask questions because I already know all the answers, I’ve read putin’s version of the history, I don’t need to hear it from you as well.
The Western narrative on Bucha is fraught and reeka of propaganda. This is not to excuse Russia of the horrors of war, which are great, nor its overall system of governance. But there is a lot to look at more closely when it comes to Bucha.
What I would highlight is that Bucha’s civilian infrastructure is intact. You cannot say this for the targets of US empire that have been bombed, historically. There is a qualitative difference in what is destroyed. It strains the heart to see what happens when the alleged “Good Guys” enter a country. The mass death. The dead children. The infants. Death of malnutrition because there is little food. Death from preventable disease because there is no clean water. The children must drink from puddles. The parents gathering water from the least dangerous-seeming source, knowing it is not safe, but having no other option. This is daily life when you are targeted for death by NATO countries. A child dies every minute in Yemen. Every minute. A Western-backed blockade prevents the import of food. The friends of US Empire, the Saudis, waged a war against Yemen, with full and necessary US logistics and intelligence support. The people there suffer under maximum pressure by Western and Western-aligned powers. And they still persist, struggling, finding the means to have solidarity with the people of Gaza.
This is not the situation Ukrainians face. They live under far less depraved pressure. While war is horrific, there are degrees. There are depths to which some sink and others do not.
It is best to oppose the escalation of affairs to make such conditions more likely, or even inevitable, for the people of Ukraine.
Yeah, but what about what the US did somewhere else?! Yeah, that’s also bad, never said it wasn’t. Two wrong don’t make a right. And you saying it could’ve been worse is disgusting. Doesn’t change the facts. Also, ofc the infrastructure was less affected in a pretty much defenseless town raped and slaughtered by russians than in other places where there was actual combat. At least try and think for yourself, c’mon.
What the US does is worse, and it likely does it with the consent and material support of the country you live in.
But that isn’t the point I’m making. It’s that maximum pressure increases the likelihood of an unrestrained, Western-style strategy. Why would anyone want that for the people of Ukraine? You’re not a cold-hearted psychopath in the US State Department. You don’t want that, I wager. I think you’re looking for a fair outcome and are outraged by the unfairness and horror you see before you.
Bucha still exists and has people living in it, by the way. They have endured war, but the language you’re using makes me think you are under the impression that their intact infrastructure doesn’t matter because they are all “raped” or dead. I will tell you that it does matter. It is why they can live less horrible lives.
My point is that Russia has been and is entirely capable of waging that same kind of brutal, truly monstrous Western military campaign. They have chosen not to for a variety of reasons
The Russians have been conducting absolutely horrifying crimes against humanity since the start of the war and, in fact, at least since World War 2. There is so much rape and torture embedded in the way that the Russian military operates that killing civilians, which is unconscionable and horrifying, is the least of their crimes.
The Russians could leave Ukraine today and the war would be over. Full stop. There is no justification for anything else.
A troll is someone that uses bad faith to get a reaction.
Unfortunately, I am actually pretty honest and don’t do such things. At most, I am dismissive towards people who do a lot of invention to justify having bad opinions. I am not thinking of you when I refer to bad opinions or invention. I think you are simply mistaken. You have adopted patterns of thought that have led you astray, they are not good heuristics for discovering accurate conclusions. I don’t blame you for this. It happens to me, too.
The Russians have been conducting absolutely horrifying crimes against humanity since the start of the war and, in fact, at least since World War 2.
War is full of horror. I suppose I would call all of it crimes against humanity, though that does not actually have a shared definition. The act of declaring war, of being an explicit aggressor, is to enjoin those horrors, to accept them as a consequence. I’m not in the business of forgiving that except in some few circumstances, circumstances that do not apply to Russia in 2022. Though it doesn’t really matter what I forgive, in the grander scheme, I hope it conveys an accurate sentiment that dissuades you from false assumptions about my position.
I’m not sure what you mean I referencing World War 2. The USSR has been on the better side of matters, on average, including WW2 and beyond.
There is so much rape and torture embedded in the way that the Russian military operates that killing civilians, which is unconscionable and horrifying, is the least of their crimes.
Ukraine is notable in its indiscriminate use of mutilation and torture, in fact. They are the party known for the excision of penises of prisoners of war early on, to much fanfare from the fascist sympathizers among them. While there are, of course, unforgivable horrors committed by Russian troops and Ukrainian, the normalization of cruelty towards Russians, that it is out of hand, is notable.
With that said, these are violences visited on soldiers. What I am referring to is the cold, systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure. The transformayof civilian life into desperate subsistence and egress and death of elders and children. This is the norm for Western military action and its absence in the Russian aggression is obvious. Gold help Ukrainians if the West’s sociopathic maximum pressure campaign leads to the adoption of this strategy.
The Russians could leave Ukraine today and the war would be over. Full stop. There is no justification for anything else.
This is entirely valid reasoning if one takes a myopic view that begins in 2022 and relies on what seems fair rather than what reflects the geopolitical realities of what gas happened between Ukraine and Russia for the past two decades. I know this comes across as dismissive. It I think that is the root cause of your incorrect perspective. It’s not your fault for having this perspective. We are all creatures of the information we consume and the narratives spun by the powers that be.
If you would like to engender more accurate ideas, I encourage you to begin earlier than 2022 in your historical review and to take a media critical approach to your reading.
christ on a cracker who’d you piss off in Mother Russia to be regulated the the “Lemmy Propaganda Division”? you’re not even smart enough to make it to the Reddit division?
No my political analysis is more sophisticated than yours based on your previous aided comments. And yes I said aided because the words you type aren’t your own. Your English grammar isn’t natural and it’s quite awkward, it’s good just not natural. you need more training. So if I may provide a “protip” to you and your superiors in Russia or India or where ever you’re operating out of I would highly suggest more classes in natural speech and writing. Right now you look like you copy and paste directly from a chatgpt client. In fact that’s exactly what you’re doing.
in the span of 24 hours you’ve started posting on Lemmy again after a year off. A year ago your comments were different. no where near as elaborate and the grammar was different, also more spelling mistakes from a year ago. And then you went back to how you type now. One moment your spelling and grammar are great, the next they’re not, so it’s painfully obvious multiple people are using your account. And it’s not like you change up your habits based on what community you post to, no you change your habits on a whim. you call people bro and you say “y’all” or “yo” one moment and a few hours later you’re back on chatgpt text.
and you follow all the same tropes that known foreign trolls are known to do. post in news, world news annnnnd personal finance communities. That’s the tell that all you guys give away, constantly.
I mean we can debate all you want but I have zero desire to talk to a copy and pasting ruskie bot.
No my political analysis is more sophisticated than yours based on your previous aided comments.
I am excited to hearthis sophisticated analysis.
And yes I said aided because the words you type aren’t your own. Your English grammar isn’t natural and it’s quite awkward, it’s good just not natural. you need more training.
I’m writing precisely and with many neutral framings so that the people reading have more of an opportunity to process without feeling alienated. You will find this styles like this to be fairly common when among people who often need to disagree with one another about a political topic but wasn’t to keep the group together.
So if I may provide a “protip” to you and your superiors in Russia or India or where ever you’re operating out of I would highly suggest more classes in natural speech and writing. Right now you look like you copy and paste directly from a chatgpt client. In fact that’s exactly what you’re doing.
You said you had a more sophisticated analysis and I was hoping to hear it. Now you’re announcing that you believe some nonsense you just made up on the spot. Disappointing.
in the span of 24 hours you’ve started posting on Lemmy again after a year off. A year ago your comments were different. no where near as elaborate and the grammar was different, also more spelling mistakes from a year ago.
Yes I’ve decided to try out this approach with this account. So far it’s going about as I expected.
And then you went back to how you type now. One moment your spelling and grammar are great, the next they’re not, so it’s painfully obvious multiple people are using your account. And it’s not like you change up your habits based on what community you post to, no you change your habits on a whim. you call people bro and you say “y’all” or “yo” one moment and a few hours later you’re back on chatgpt text.
Ah, so it’s an LLM and multiple people? The plot thickens! The idea that someone writes differently than you is clearly far less likely. It’s a conspiracy!
and you follow all the same tropes that known foreign trolls are known to do. post in news, world news annnnnd personal finance communities. That’s the tell that all you guys give away, constantly.
I think you should look up the definition of the word “trope”.
I do focus on news posts, sure. I’m interested in geopolitical analysis. I didn’t know that this was something that you would find upsetting. Where do you prefer that people post about that content?
I mean we can debate all you want but I have zero desire to talk to a copy and pasting ruskie bot.
We haven’t debated at all. You just said something silly, I pointed that out, and now you’re just loudly confusing yourself about something else.
Toying with NATO membership is the most surefire way to ensure the complete destruction of Ukraine.
I think many people have forgotten the brutality with which Western countries wage war. They see the (still very real) horrors in Ukraine and are told to think of them as dramatically terrible, unconscionable, in a way they have never treated Western actions, including literally NATO actions and/or major NATO member actions.
The United States destroyed virtually all of Iraq’s major civilian infrastructure during the Gulf War, then imposed sanctions that caused mass death, especially of children. Millions of deaths. When it returned in 2003 it again targeted civilian infrastructure and massive bombing campaigns, focusing on the complete destruction of all capabilities regardless of what cultural artifacts or population centers were demolished.
Now, I know how some propagandized thought patterns go. Some people reading this might think my point is to draw attention to a “who is worse?” competition. But this is not my point.
My point is that Russia has been and is entirely capable of waging that same kind of brutal, truly monstrous Western military campaign. They have chosen not to for a variety of reasons, though this restraint has been cracking since UA has started targeting Russian population centers.
A continued maximum pressure campaign that credibly threatens actual NATO membership for Ukraine (everyone knows it’s not currently credible) risks the war turning into one that is unrestrained, i.e. the destruction of civilian infrastructure, mass death, and upturning all of Ukrainian society.
lol
I am referring to Russia destroying some Ukrainian civilian infrastructure and to Ukraine killing civilians. Which of those do you find funny?
The funny part is how obvious your lies are. Unless you think all the death and destruction in Ukraine is not actually that but just western propaganda… Which you probably do, based on your post history.
Tldr: lol, tankie!
There is a lot of death and destruction in Ukraine. I’m not sure why you’d think my position is anything else.
Perhaps you could ask questions instead?
Because you claimed that russia can wage brutal wars but they haven’t so far, that they have showed restraint. And all the videos of hospitals and schools and residential buildings and Bucha, etc. Prove otherwise.
And no need to ask questions because I already know all the answers, I’ve read putin’s version of the history, I don’t need to hear it from you as well.
The Western narrative on Bucha is fraught and reeka of propaganda. This is not to excuse Russia of the horrors of war, which are great, nor its overall system of governance. But there is a lot to look at more closely when it comes to Bucha.
What I would highlight is that Bucha’s civilian infrastructure is intact. You cannot say this for the targets of US empire that have been bombed, historically. There is a qualitative difference in what is destroyed. It strains the heart to see what happens when the alleged “Good Guys” enter a country. The mass death. The dead children. The infants. Death of malnutrition because there is little food. Death from preventable disease because there is no clean water. The children must drink from puddles. The parents gathering water from the least dangerous-seeming source, knowing it is not safe, but having no other option. This is daily life when you are targeted for death by NATO countries. A child dies every minute in Yemen. Every minute. A Western-backed blockade prevents the import of food. The friends of US Empire, the Saudis, waged a war against Yemen, with full and necessary US logistics and intelligence support. The people there suffer under maximum pressure by Western and Western-aligned powers. And they still persist, struggling, finding the means to have solidarity with the people of Gaza.
This is not the situation Ukrainians face. They live under far less depraved pressure. While war is horrific, there are degrees. There are depths to which some sink and others do not.
It is best to oppose the escalation of affairs to make such conditions more likely, or even inevitable, for the people of Ukraine.
Yeah, but what about what the US did somewhere else?! Yeah, that’s also bad, never said it wasn’t. Two wrong don’t make a right. And you saying it could’ve been worse is disgusting. Doesn’t change the facts. Also, ofc the infrastructure was less affected in a pretty much defenseless town raped and slaughtered by russians than in other places where there was actual combat. At least try and think for yourself, c’mon.
What the US does is worse, and it likely does it with the consent and material support of the country you live in.
But that isn’t the point I’m making. It’s that maximum pressure increases the likelihood of an unrestrained, Western-style strategy. Why would anyone want that for the people of Ukraine? You’re not a cold-hearted psychopath in the US State Department. You don’t want that, I wager. I think you’re looking for a fair outcome and are outraged by the unfairness and horror you see before you.
Bucha still exists and has people living in it, by the way. They have endured war, but the language you’re using makes me think you are under the impression that their intact infrastructure doesn’t matter because they are all “raped” or dead. I will tell you that it does matter. It is why they can live less horrible lives.
This is how I know you’re a troll:
The Russians have been conducting absolutely horrifying crimes against humanity since the start of the war and, in fact, at least since World War 2. There is so much rape and torture embedded in the way that the Russian military operates that killing civilians, which is unconscionable and horrifying, is the least of their crimes.
The Russians could leave Ukraine today and the war would be over. Full stop. There is no justification for anything else.
A troll is someone that uses bad faith to get a reaction.
Unfortunately, I am actually pretty honest and don’t do such things. At most, I am dismissive towards people who do a lot of invention to justify having bad opinions. I am not thinking of you when I refer to bad opinions or invention. I think you are simply mistaken. You have adopted patterns of thought that have led you astray, they are not good heuristics for discovering accurate conclusions. I don’t blame you for this. It happens to me, too.
War is full of horror. I suppose I would call all of it crimes against humanity, though that does not actually have a shared definition. The act of declaring war, of being an explicit aggressor, is to enjoin those horrors, to accept them as a consequence. I’m not in the business of forgiving that except in some few circumstances, circumstances that do not apply to Russia in 2022. Though it doesn’t really matter what I forgive, in the grander scheme, I hope it conveys an accurate sentiment that dissuades you from false assumptions about my position.
I’m not sure what you mean I referencing World War 2. The USSR has been on the better side of matters, on average, including WW2 and beyond.
Ukraine is notable in its indiscriminate use of mutilation and torture, in fact. They are the party known for the excision of penises of prisoners of war early on, to much fanfare from the fascist sympathizers among them. While there are, of course, unforgivable horrors committed by Russian troops and Ukrainian, the normalization of cruelty towards Russians, that it is out of hand, is notable.
With that said, these are violences visited on soldiers. What I am referring to is the cold, systematic destruction of civilian infrastructure. The transformayof civilian life into desperate subsistence and egress and death of elders and children. This is the norm for Western military action and its absence in the Russian aggression is obvious. Gold help Ukrainians if the West’s sociopathic maximum pressure campaign leads to the adoption of this strategy.
This is entirely valid reasoning if one takes a myopic view that begins in 2022 and relies on what seems fair rather than what reflects the geopolitical realities of what gas happened between Ukraine and Russia for the past two decades. I know this comes across as dismissive. It I think that is the root cause of your incorrect perspective. It’s not your fault for having this perspective. We are all creatures of the information we consume and the narratives spun by the powers that be.
If you would like to engender more accurate ideas, I encourage you to begin earlier than 2022 in your historical review and to take a media critical approach to your reading.
christ on a cracker who’d you piss off in Mother Russia to be regulated the the “Lemmy Propaganda Division”? you’re not even smart enough to make it to the Reddit division?
Is your political analysis exactly as sophisticated as, “I better call them Russian if I don’t know what to do”?
It seems so. Please give yourself more respect.
No my political analysis is more sophisticated than yours based on your previous aided comments. And yes I said aided because the words you type aren’t your own. Your English grammar isn’t natural and it’s quite awkward, it’s good just not natural. you need more training. So if I may provide a “protip” to you and your superiors in Russia or India or where ever you’re operating out of I would highly suggest more classes in natural speech and writing. Right now you look like you copy and paste directly from a chatgpt client. In fact that’s exactly what you’re doing.
in the span of 24 hours you’ve started posting on Lemmy again after a year off. A year ago your comments were different. no where near as elaborate and the grammar was different, also more spelling mistakes from a year ago. And then you went back to how you type now. One moment your spelling and grammar are great, the next they’re not, so it’s painfully obvious multiple people are using your account. And it’s not like you change up your habits based on what community you post to, no you change your habits on a whim. you call people bro and you say “y’all” or “yo” one moment and a few hours later you’re back on chatgpt text.
and you follow all the same tropes that known foreign trolls are known to do. post in news, world news annnnnd personal finance communities. That’s the tell that all you guys give away, constantly.
I mean we can debate all you want but I have zero desire to talk to a copy and pasting ruskie bot.
I am excited to hearthis sophisticated analysis.
I’m writing precisely and with many neutral framings so that the people reading have more of an opportunity to process without feeling alienated. You will find this styles like this to be fairly common when among people who often need to disagree with one another about a political topic but wasn’t to keep the group together.
You said you had a more sophisticated analysis and I was hoping to hear it. Now you’re announcing that you believe some nonsense you just made up on the spot. Disappointing.
Yes I’ve decided to try out this approach with this account. So far it’s going about as I expected.
Ah, so it’s an LLM and multiple people? The plot thickens! The idea that someone writes differently than you is clearly far less likely. It’s a conspiracy!
I think you should look up the definition of the word “trope”.
I do focus on news posts, sure. I’m interested in geopolitical analysis. I didn’t know that this was something that you would find upsetting. Where do you prefer that people post about that content?
We haven’t debated at all. You just said something silly, I pointed that out, and now you’re just loudly confusing yourself about something else.