Russian President Vladimir Putin promised Friday to "immediately" order a ceasefire in Ukraine and start negotiations if Kyiv began withdrawing troops from the four regions annexed by Moscow in 2022 and renounced plans to join NATO. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy rejected what he called an ultimatum by Putin to surrender more territory.
To all the people who believe Ukraine should continue fighting, why do you not volunteer?
The ukranians do not wish to fight this war. They have to be forced. The men are not allowed to leave, the average age in the army is 43 and the army has to forcibly conscript people to force them to the front 123 going so far as to raid high school gyms
It is clear the average ukrainian does not wish to fight. If you believe this war must continue, why do you not volunteer? Surely you are not that much of a coward that you find it acceptable people should be forced to be thrown into a meatgrinder?
To all the people who believe Ukraine should continue fighting, why do you not volunteer?
Is a pretty lazy argument. Most people have no interest in shedding blood, nor are they Ukrainian or Russian.
I think explaining western encroachment and that a lot of the modern militant Ukrainians are ideological descendants of Bandera and full-on fascists is the better way to go.
Fair point. If this were a situation were I was trying to convince the other part, then I would agree with you, my question doesn’t create any strong argument and it is quite reductive. I’ve used it as a sort of gotcha in discussions when we reached the ideological level (russia is fascists genocider badman!) But to be quite honest I am not asking this as a gotcha now. I’ve asked it so much and never gotten an answer and I’ve gotten curious about what the honest answer is. I’d like to know how people can scream about fascism and against peace, while not being willing to fight themselves. If I truly believed the war in Ukraine was an existential threat, and was somehow able to square that with the fact ukrainians weren’t willing to fight, and able to square that with the idea that was must go on, then I can’t see how I wouldn’t also be volunteering.
The question as I’ve posed it is flawed, it requires that we accept the people of Ukraine do not wish to fight and that the war is lost - I feel like I’ve presented a solid case for both, but it’s still sort of a prerequisite - and anyone who agrees on those two fronts, is more than likely a person who is more informed than the person who thinks the war should continue. The venn diagramme overlap of people who can observe the basic facts, but still think the war should go on, is quite small.
Why wouldn’t you argue for the aggressor to leave? Seems kind of backwards to tell the country that was invaded to roll over and just give up to its fascist neighbor.
I’m not arguing for anything. I’m asking a question and that question isn’t wether or not it is morally right for Russia to invade Ukraine. I am asking you: Since the ukrainian people do not wish to continue this war, but you think they should, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Ukraine should not accept this peace deal, if you think the war should continue, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Russia is so horrendous that Ukraine cannot accept peace, why are you not volunteering?
And my question is why are you putting everything on the people who were invaded and not the aggressor? Are the Russian people not also being senselessly killed in a war started by their government?
I’m a capybara, king of the rats, thank you very much. The question is why won’t you condemn the aggressor and stop putting the onus of peace on the people who are being murdered by an aggressor?
Thrice you have been asked a simple question, thrice you have attempted to evade an answer. You’re pathetic.
Or is it that you cannot read what I have written? It would seem so, your question is a repetition, not acknowledging the answer it has received.
It is clear that you are psychotic, lusting for ukrainian blood. You wish for them to die in a meat grinder they do not wish to enter. A meat grinder of a war against an opponent who has offered a peace deal. You seem to think they should not accept this deal, so why don’t you go fight? The ukrainian people obviously do not wish to fight, they no longer see a reason to continue this war, since they must be forced to fight. Yet you think they should continue, so go support them the best way you can: with your body. But you won’t, and you won’t answer why, for the answer would require you to admit a deeper rot in your soul. Shame on you and shame on you for attempting to utilize these sad attempts at debatelord parlor tricks. I asked my question in good faith, I was genuinely qurious, yet from the moment you responded you have done naught but ignore this simple question.
Also you’re really bad at doing what you’re trying to do, it’s incredibly obvious how much a shitty little turd you’re being
Czechoslovakia, that’s a bingo! Thank you so much for filling out my bingo board. Sadly this still isn’t an answer to my question, you have failed yet again.
Literally doing the playground “no u”. Lemmy.ml isn’t sending their best :(
Sorry for using 5-dollar words, english isn’t my first language (it’s russian, Putin has paid me personally for this interaction) and so sometimes I phrase things weirdly. Personally I’m used to people not speaking a language perfectly, so I try not to shame them for weird language use, but that’s just one of the many ways I’ve been raised better than you. I’d like to thank my mother and yours
The question is why won’t you condemn the aggressor and stop putting the onus of peace on the people who are being murdered by an aggressor?
The people being murdered… Oh, you mean the Russian-speaking population of Eastern Ukraine? The ones who the openly fascist banderite government (that coupe’d the democratically elected government in 2014) were trying to ethnically cleanse when Russia stepped in and prevented it? Yes, I do support those people of Donbas, and seeing as they support Russia, you should too if you care about innocent people getting murdered. Similarly, I condemn the aggressors, the aforementioned banderite Ukrainian fascists and their NATO backers.
I’m not the person you were asking, but yes, I also support the people of Western Ukraine, the vast majority of whom do not want to fight in this war but are being press ganged, literally kidnapped off the street by the Ukrainian government and shipped off to be cannon fodder and die on the front line. I fully support them and advocate for the immediate end of this war so that no more of them will die needlessly in this senseless meat grinder that NATO and the Ukrainian government insist on perpetuating despite their inevitable loss. If you care about human life and if you care about justice, then you would completely support Ukraine immediately accepting this peace offer. If you think human life is cheap (especially if it’s foreign to you) and that Ukrainian working class people are expendable and should go ahead and die for the sake of lines on a map that favor western countries, then yeah, that would be in line with cheerleading for the Ukrainian government and opposing the offer of peace.
I said what I said, you’re not in charge of shit here. Nobody needs to answer your stupid question first in order to speak their mind. How about you start by acknowledging that Russia is the fascist aggressor in this war, could stop it at any minute by returning to their own territory, and admitting that they’re simply the bad guys in this war? Can you say that?
It strikes me as quite odd that you would be offended about me insisting on wanting an answer. This started out with me asking a question and you then… decided to jump in to not answer it? Of course you’re allowed to speak your mind, and I’m allowed to address your inane pathethic attempts at steering the conversation away from it’s starting point - To me that question is the whole point of this interaction. You are somehow offended at the fact that I would like to have my question answered, it’s really odd. Do you often get mad when people expect that dialogue proceeds in a rational fashion?
I will however do you a solid and address your questions. I recommend that you look at how I go about this concept of “answering a question” which seems to strike such furor within you, and use it as inspiration for the day you yourself find the ability to answer simple queries.
How about you start by acknowledging that Russia is the fascist aggressor in this war, could stop it at any minute by returning to their own territory, and admitting that they’re simply the bad guys in this war?
Russia is a capitalist state run by oligarchs. Putin is a homophobe, I hope one day the russian people will be blessed with a government that governs for the people rather than over the people. The reasons for war are more complex than “mustache twirling bad man.” Your request here reveals your simplistic worldview of “good guys” and “bad guys”, these are not motivations for war.
I do not support Russia, however I am a realist and realise that no war has ever ended by the victorious party packing up and going home just because. Russia has offered a peace treaty and it is clear the ukrainians do not wish to fight anymore. I personally see no reason to continue a war that has already been lost especially not when that war has, as I’ve taken pains to illustrate, no popular support. I do not agree with the invasion of Ukraine, but I am able to observe and accept material reality, which is that Ukraine has no soldiers, no people willing to fight, it has to force people to go to the front where they die in droves for no gain, and now they have been offered a treaty which would put an end to this bloodshed. I think they should take it because I think the war should end.
You think (this I must assume since you cannot answer a simple question, nor engage with the basic arguments I have thus far presented) that despite the fact that that Ukraine has no soldiers, no people willing to fight, it has to force people to go to the front where they die in droves for no gain, and now they have been offered a treaty which would put an end to this bloodshed, they should not accept peace for some reason. Charitably I assume that people who hold this opinions of yours, hold it because they think the war is important in some way, and not because they lust for the blood of ukrainians. This is where my curiosity lies and where I would like to have it answered: Since people like you believe this war is so important that it must continue, why do you believe it is not important enough for you to go volunteer? You seem to believe Ukraine is a liberal democracy like the ones in the west and that Russia is a fascist dictatorship invading for no good reason except to murder or subjugate every single ukrainian. Therefore Ukraine must not accept a peace deal even though ukrainians do not want to fight. I don’t believe that, but if I did, I would go volunteer for Ukraine, since the war would then be so important for me. So how come? How come you can believe that Russia is so bad, so evil, so monstrous, so wrong, yet you do not believe you should go support the country that you think should reject the peace its people are clamoring for?
If I was still a child who believed in good guys and bad guys, I would just present these pictures with no comment. Instead, I’m presenting them with a “lol”.
Russia is neither fascist nor “the aggressor.” Anyone who doesn’t recognize that Russia entered a civil war where one side (a coup government with an actual fascist military that openly admits their fascism) was trying to ethnically cleanse the other side (who are speakers of the Russian language) doesn’t know what the fuck is going on and has almost certainly swallowed gallons of propaganda.
could stop it at any minute by returning to their own territory
And then what would happen to the people of Eastern Ukraine, the Donbas? They would get ethnically cleansed. But I guess you don’t give a shit about that? Or you literally didn’t know about that?
and admitting that they’re simply the bad guys in this war?
Baby-brained simplistic bullshit. No, Russia is not “the bad guy” in this war and you need to expose yourself to more of the world than fucking marvel movies. Also, the word fascist has a meaning, it’s not a synonym for “bad guys,” and if you had any exposure to the world beyond your little bubble from which you lap up propaganda like it’s ice cream, you’d know that (for example) the US just as if not closer to being fascist than Russia.
It is literally a peace deal and you’re not answering because you know being honest about what you feel should be done here would reveal you to be the Internet Douglas Haig we all know you are.
“You oppose Russia yet you don’t want to go fight them yourself, why?” is a ridiculous question that you’re pretending is a rational one. You’re intellectually dishonest af here, and you say you’re “not arguing” simply because you’re putting your absolute bullshit in the form of a question.
Once again not an answer, but I see the issue, you’re illiterate! It seems like you have found other words than the ones I’d written. The question was “Since you think the war in Ukraine is so important that it should continue despite the fact that ukrainians themselves do not want to continue fighting, why are you not volunteering for the war?”
Initially I asked a question and you decided to engage by not answering the question, you’re now offended that I want you to answer the question. If you had no intention of ever answering the question, why engage at all? You call it bullshit, but of us two I am the only to have played with open cards, I have been honest and forthright with my intention from the get go. I have even answered your questions! Yet you somehow feel that I have deceived you. Are you really so simple as to be able to feel deceived by a person who outright tells you what it is they want?
I’ll explain now why it’s such a dishonest question. It’s a false equivalence that sets the bar for agreeing with an opinion at being willing to die for it yourself. That is incorrect, logically speaking. The bar for agreeing with this opinion would be whether or not I’d be willing to fight and die for MY country if it was being invaded by Russians. That’s the core dishonesty of your question, that if I support their cause, I should be willing to fight and die for it myself.
I also wouldn’t personally say that every last able-bodied man should fight. Say we have a Ukrainian man whose brother was killed, his brother’s wife is disabled, and she has 6 kids. I would have nothing to say about what that individual man should do, and if he chose to help his sister in law get her orphaned children out of Ukraine, away from the war, and take care of them, that’s his honorable choice. That brings us to the second dishonest part of your question, it sets the implied bar at a point where if one supports a country that continues fighting for its freedom against a violent aggressor, that we must naturally support the notion that every individual in that country should fight as well. It’s taking a macro level question and trying to apply it to every individual; attempting to turn a nuanced opinion into a black and white one by disregarding the contextual realities at the individual level.
So once again you fail to answer the question lmao. Now you’re trying to dance around the premise, pricking holes in it, but this too you cannot do. You’re talking about “supporting the cause”, vague nonsense. You also seem to think that I asked “if you want a country to win in an argument on the internet, why don’t you go kill yourself in the war?” Are you dyslexic? Did you learn to read in that weird way where you recognize the shape of words instead of phonics?
I didn’t ask “if you support Ukraine…” I asked “If you think the war should continue, despite the fact that the people no longer want to fight it, why don’t you go volunteer?”
You keep making up new things, try to read what I have written more slowly. Maybe ask an adult for help.
You say that I imply that “if we support a country, then every individual in that country should fight as well.” No, buddy, just no.
I’m happy you’ve put on your big boy pants and tried your hand at rhetorics 101, but you really need to engage with the words you’re presented with rather than the words you’d like for me to have written. If you think a war should continue, despite the fact that the people of the nation you claim to support no longer want the war to continue, then I think it makes logical sense that you go volunteer. I know that if I supported a war to such an extent that I argued against peace, despite the fact the people I allegedly “support” (agree with online) do not want the war to continue, then it would be because I saw this war as something more important than simple territorial warfare, since I think it’s cool and good to throw unwilling people into a meat grinder for it. Since I am a “supporter” of this war to such an extent, then I would volunteer. I’m not, but you are, so why aren’t you volunteering?
Sure, I support the “ukrainina cause” Slava Ukraini! I also think they should accept the peace deal because the ukrainians do not wish to fight anymore. If you think they shouldn’t, despite the fact they no longer wish to fight, then you are, in fact, not supporting their cause. You are supporting more dead ukrainians. If you think this war must continue despite the fact ukrainians do not want it to, then you must think it is of such a moral importance, why then do you not also think it is your moral imperative to go fight for it?
The point is that many people caught up in the propaganda seem perfectly happy to let an infinite number of Ukrainians die for their project. It’s apparently very important to fight Russia with life and life (Ukrainian), but not so important that they’d take any risk themselves whatsoever. It speaks to both the dehumanization of the Ukrainian people, of treating them like fictional heroes rather than conscripts pushed around by larger forces, as well as the implicit sociopathy of the armchair warhawk. The hope, of course, is that the inconsistency prompts someone to actually question their own inconsistencies, as most people don’t think of themselves as warhawks or several times more human than a Ukrainian.
Though there are some other incorrect lines of thought in your comment.
Why wouldn’t you argue for the aggressor to leave?
That is not a human on this Lemmy server who can think and respond to the point. And even if you were in the room with some powerful person with the capacity to personally impact the outcome, your request would mean nothing because that’s not how geopolitics work.
These are not comparable things. Instead, this rhetoric is a thought-terminating cliche intended to recenter The Bad Guy ™ rather than address the point made.
Seems kind of backwards to tell the country that was invaded to roll over and just give up to its fascist neighbor.
Who is talking to countries? We are people talking to one another.
You are very happy to let Ukrainians ve slaughtered by Putin. Everyone can see whaz instance you are on. Stop acting like you care about Ukraine. Your whole instance is full of licking Putins ass. Giving the genocidal dictator a part of the country with the people he all wants to murder is the worst outcome.
You are very happy to let Ukrainians ve slaughtered by Putin.
Please don’t invent positions on my behalf. I would prefer Ukrainians to live, thanks. My position prioritizes the common people of Ukraine over the interests of larger powers.
Everyone can see whaz instance you are on.
And?
Stop acting like you care about Ukraine. Your whole instance is full of licking Putins ass.
You are inventing fantasies rather than address the realities of what I’m saying. Please return to a real world discourse.
Giving the genocidal dictator a part of the country with the people he all wants to murder is the worst outcome.
Puting is just the head of a faction. It’s best not to focus too much on him, as you will risk falling for the false understanding that is Great Man Theory. If Putin died tomorrow, Russian policy would be very similar to what it is today, same as if Biden or Zelensky died. These are people whose power and actions depend on larger systems, not just personal whims.
That said I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Which people do you think Putin wants to murder? The people of the Donbas?
To all the people who believe Ukraine should continue fighting, why do you not volunteer?
The ukranians do not wish to fight this war. They have to be forced. The men are not allowed to leave, the average age in the army is 43 and the army has to forcibly conscript people to force them to the front 1 2 3 going so far as to raid high school gyms
It is clear the average ukrainian does not wish to fight. If you believe this war must continue, why do you not volunteer? Surely you are not that much of a coward that you find it acceptable people should be forced to be thrown into a meatgrinder?
In my opinion this,
Is a pretty lazy argument. Most people have no interest in shedding blood, nor are they Ukrainian or Russian.
I think explaining western encroachment and that a lot of the modern militant Ukrainians are ideological descendants of Bandera and full-on fascists is the better way to go.
Fair point. If this were a situation were I was trying to convince the other part, then I would agree with you, my question doesn’t create any strong argument and it is quite reductive. I’ve used it as a sort of gotcha in discussions when we reached the ideological level (russia is fascists genocider badman!) But to be quite honest I am not asking this as a gotcha now. I’ve asked it so much and never gotten an answer and I’ve gotten curious about what the honest answer is. I’d like to know how people can scream about fascism and against peace, while not being willing to fight themselves. If I truly believed the war in Ukraine was an existential threat, and was somehow able to square that with the fact ukrainians weren’t willing to fight, and able to square that with the idea that was must go on, then I can’t see how I wouldn’t also be volunteering.
The question as I’ve posed it is flawed, it requires that we accept the people of Ukraine do not wish to fight and that the war is lost - I feel like I’ve presented a solid case for both, but it’s still sort of a prerequisite - and anyone who agrees on those two fronts, is more than likely a person who is more informed than the person who thinks the war should continue. The venn diagramme overlap of people who can observe the basic facts, but still think the war should go on, is quite small.
Yeah I definitely get where you’re coming from
Why wouldn’t you argue for the aggressor to leave? Seems kind of backwards to tell the country that was invaded to roll over and just give up to its fascist neighbor.
I’m not arguing for anything. I’m asking a question and that question isn’t wether or not it is morally right for Russia to invade Ukraine. I am asking you: Since the ukrainian people do not wish to continue this war, but you think they should, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Ukraine should not accept this peace deal, if you think the war should continue, why aren’t you volunteering? If you think Russia is so horrendous that Ukraine cannot accept peace, why are you not volunteering?
And my question is why are you putting everything on the people who were invaded and not the aggressor? Are the Russian people not also being senselessly killed in a war started by their government?
Weasel, you’re evading the question. My answer: Russia has presented a peace deal. Now answer my question you coward.
I’m a capybara, king of the rats, thank you very much. The question is why won’t you condemn the aggressor and stop putting the onus of peace on the people who are being murdered by an aggressor?
Thrice you have been asked a simple question, thrice you have attempted to evade an answer. You’re pathetic.
Or is it that you cannot read what I have written? It would seem so, your question is a repetition, not acknowledging the answer it has received.
It is clear that you are psychotic, lusting for ukrainian blood. You wish for them to die in a meat grinder they do not wish to enter. A meat grinder of a war against an opponent who has offered a peace deal. You seem to think they should not accept this deal, so why don’t you go fight? The ukrainian people obviously do not wish to fight, they no longer see a reason to continue this war, since they must be forced to fight. Yet you think they should continue, so go support them the best way you can: with your body. But you won’t, and you won’t answer why, for the answer would require you to admit a deeper rot in your soul. Shame on you and shame on you for attempting to utilize these sad attempts at debatelord parlor tricks. I asked my question in good faith, I was genuinely qurious, yet from the moment you responded you have done naught but ignore this simple question.
Also you’re really bad at doing what you’re trying to do, it’s incredibly obvious how much a shitty little turd you’re being
The coughing will begin in three days.
I think it’s very clear who is the psychotic one here. Thank you for the conversation, Prime Minister Chamberlain.
Czechoslovakia, that’s a bingo! Thank you so much for filling out my bingo board. Sadly this still isn’t an answer to my question, you have failed yet again.
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Literally doing the playground “no u”. Lemmy.ml isn’t sending their best :(
Sorry for using 5-dollar words, english isn’t my first language (it’s russian, Putin has paid me personally for this interaction) and so sometimes I phrase things weirdly. Personally I’m used to people not speaking a language perfectly, so I try not to shame them for weird language use, but that’s just one of the many ways I’ve been raised better than you. I’d like to thank my mother and yours
Sorry guys I ain’t reading all this right now but this ^ is “I have depicted myself as the chad wojak and you as the soy wojak”
Literally just answer the question.
Replying to a question with an unrelated question is rude and derails the conversation. Fucking answer them directly you fucking coward.
The people being murdered… Oh, you mean the Russian-speaking population of Eastern Ukraine? The ones who the openly fascist banderite government (that coupe’d the democratically elected government in 2014) were trying to ethnically cleanse when Russia stepped in and prevented it? Yes, I do support those people of Donbas, and seeing as they support Russia, you should too if you care about innocent people getting murdered. Similarly, I condemn the aggressors, the aforementioned banderite Ukrainian fascists and their NATO backers.
I’m not the person you were asking, but yes, I also support the people of Western Ukraine, the vast majority of whom do not want to fight in this war but are being press ganged, literally kidnapped off the street by the Ukrainian government and shipped off to be cannon fodder and die on the front line. I fully support them and advocate for the immediate end of this war so that no more of them will die needlessly in this senseless meat grinder that NATO and the Ukrainian government insist on perpetuating despite their inevitable loss. If you care about human life and if you care about justice, then you would completely support Ukraine immediately accepting this peace offer. If you think human life is cheap (especially if it’s foreign to you) and that Ukrainian working class people are expendable and should go ahead and die for the sake of lines on a map that favor western countries, then yeah, that would be in line with cheerleading for the Ukrainian government and opposing the offer of peace.
Because they’re arguing in bad faith.
You’re calling someone else a weasel while calling this “offer” a peace deal? Look in the mirror.
Also not an answer, try again.
I said what I said, you’re not in charge of shit here. Nobody needs to answer your stupid question first in order to speak their mind. How about you start by acknowledging that Russia is the fascist aggressor in this war, could stop it at any minute by returning to their own territory, and admitting that they’re simply the bad guys in this war? Can you say that?
It strikes me as quite odd that you would be offended about me insisting on wanting an answer. This started out with me asking a question and you then… decided to jump in to not answer it? Of course you’re allowed to speak your mind, and I’m allowed to address your inane pathethic attempts at steering the conversation away from it’s starting point - To me that question is the whole point of this interaction. You are somehow offended at the fact that I would like to have my question answered, it’s really odd. Do you often get mad when people expect that dialogue proceeds in a rational fashion?
I will however do you a solid and address your questions. I recommend that you look at how I go about this concept of “answering a question” which seems to strike such furor within you, and use it as inspiration for the day you yourself find the ability to answer simple queries.
Russia is a capitalist state run by oligarchs. Putin is a homophobe, I hope one day the russian people will be blessed with a government that governs for the people rather than over the people. The reasons for war are more complex than “mustache twirling bad man.” Your request here reveals your simplistic worldview of “good guys” and “bad guys”, these are not motivations for war.
I do not support Russia, however I am a realist and realise that no war has ever ended by the victorious party packing up and going home just because. Russia has offered a peace treaty and it is clear the ukrainians do not wish to fight anymore. I personally see no reason to continue a war that has already been lost especially not when that war has, as I’ve taken pains to illustrate, no popular support. I do not agree with the invasion of Ukraine, but I am able to observe and accept material reality, which is that Ukraine has no soldiers, no people willing to fight, it has to force people to go to the front where they die in droves for no gain, and now they have been offered a treaty which would put an end to this bloodshed. I think they should take it because I think the war should end.
You think (this I must assume since you cannot answer a simple question, nor engage with the basic arguments I have thus far presented) that despite the fact that that Ukraine has no soldiers, no people willing to fight, it has to force people to go to the front where they die in droves for no gain, and now they have been offered a treaty which would put an end to this bloodshed, they should not accept peace for some reason. Charitably I assume that people who hold this opinions of yours, hold it because they think the war is important in some way, and not because they lust for the blood of ukrainians. This is where my curiosity lies and where I would like to have it answered: Since people like you believe this war is so important that it must continue, why do you believe it is not important enough for you to go volunteer? You seem to believe Ukraine is a liberal democracy like the ones in the west and that Russia is a fascist dictatorship invading for no good reason except to murder or subjugate every single ukrainian. Therefore Ukraine must not accept a peace deal even though ukrainians do not want to fight. I don’t believe that, but if I did, I would go volunteer for Ukraine, since the war would then be so important for me. So how come? How come you can believe that Russia is so bad, so evil, so monstrous, so wrong, yet you do not believe you should go support the country that you think should reject the peace its people are clamoring for?
Answer my question
Russia is fascist now?
If I was still a child who believed in good guys and bad guys, I would just present these pictures with no comment. Instead, I’m presenting them with a “lol”.
Russia is neither fascist nor “the aggressor.” Anyone who doesn’t recognize that Russia entered a civil war where one side (a coup government with an actual fascist military that openly admits their fascism) was trying to ethnically cleanse the other side (who are speakers of the Russian language) doesn’t know what the fuck is going on and has almost certainly swallowed gallons of propaganda.
And then what would happen to the people of Eastern Ukraine, the Donbas? They would get ethnically cleansed. But I guess you don’t give a shit about that? Or you literally didn’t know about that?
Baby-brained simplistic bullshit. No, Russia is not “the bad guy” in this war and you need to expose yourself to more of the world than fucking marvel movies. Also, the word fascist has a meaning, it’s not a synonym for “bad guys,” and if you had any exposure to the world beyond your little bubble from which you lap up propaganda like it’s ice cream, you’d know that (for example) the US just as if not closer to being fascist than Russia.
It is literally a peace deal and you’re not answering because you know being honest about what you feel should be done here would reveal you to be the Internet Douglas Haig we all know you are.
“You oppose Russia yet you don’t want to go fight them yourself, why?” is a ridiculous question that you’re pretending is a rational one. You’re intellectually dishonest af here, and you say you’re “not arguing” simply because you’re putting your absolute bullshit in the form of a question.
Once again not an answer, but I see the issue, you’re illiterate! It seems like you have found other words than the ones I’d written. The question was “Since you think the war in Ukraine is so important that it should continue despite the fact that ukrainians themselves do not want to continue fighting, why are you not volunteering for the war?”
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Initially I asked a question and you decided to engage by not answering the question, you’re now offended that I want you to answer the question. If you had no intention of ever answering the question, why engage at all? You call it bullshit, but of us two I am the only to have played with open cards, I have been honest and forthright with my intention from the get go. I have even answered your questions! Yet you somehow feel that I have deceived you. Are you really so simple as to be able to feel deceived by a person who outright tells you what it is they want?
I’ll explain now why it’s such a dishonest question. It’s a false equivalence that sets the bar for agreeing with an opinion at being willing to die for it yourself. That is incorrect, logically speaking. The bar for agreeing with this opinion would be whether or not I’d be willing to fight and die for MY country if it was being invaded by Russians. That’s the core dishonesty of your question, that if I support their cause, I should be willing to fight and die for it myself.
I also wouldn’t personally say that every last able-bodied man should fight. Say we have a Ukrainian man whose brother was killed, his brother’s wife is disabled, and she has 6 kids. I would have nothing to say about what that individual man should do, and if he chose to help his sister in law get her orphaned children out of Ukraine, away from the war, and take care of them, that’s his honorable choice. That brings us to the second dishonest part of your question, it sets the implied bar at a point where if one supports a country that continues fighting for its freedom against a violent aggressor, that we must naturally support the notion that every individual in that country should fight as well. It’s taking a macro level question and trying to apply it to every individual; attempting to turn a nuanced opinion into a black and white one by disregarding the contextual realities at the individual level.
Your dishonesty is embedded in the question.
So once again you fail to answer the question lmao. Now you’re trying to dance around the premise, pricking holes in it, but this too you cannot do. You’re talking about “supporting the cause”, vague nonsense. You also seem to think that I asked “if you want a country to win in an argument on the internet, why don’t you go kill yourself in the war?” Are you dyslexic? Did you learn to read in that weird way where you recognize the shape of words instead of phonics?
I didn’t ask “if you support Ukraine…” I asked “If you think the war should continue, despite the fact that the people no longer want to fight it, why don’t you go volunteer?”
You keep making up new things, try to read what I have written more slowly. Maybe ask an adult for help.
You say that I imply that “if we support a country, then every individual in that country should fight as well.” No, buddy, just no.
I’m happy you’ve put on your big boy pants and tried your hand at rhetorics 101, but you really need to engage with the words you’re presented with rather than the words you’d like for me to have written. If you think a war should continue, despite the fact that the people of the nation you claim to support no longer want the war to continue, then I think it makes logical sense that you go volunteer. I know that if I supported a war to such an extent that I argued against peace, despite the fact the people I allegedly “support” (agree with online) do not want the war to continue, then it would be because I saw this war as something more important than simple territorial warfare, since I think it’s cool and good to throw unwilling people into a meat grinder for it. Since I am a “supporter” of this war to such an extent, then I would volunteer. I’m not, but you are, so why aren’t you volunteering?
Sure, I support the “ukrainina cause” Slava Ukraini! I also think they should accept the peace deal because the ukrainians do not wish to fight anymore. If you think they shouldn’t, despite the fact they no longer wish to fight, then you are, in fact, not supporting their cause. You are supporting more dead ukrainians. If you think this war must continue despite the fact ukrainians do not want it to, then you must think it is of such a moral importance, why then do you not also think it is your moral imperative to go fight for it?
Now answer my question
The point is that many people caught up in the propaganda seem perfectly happy to let an infinite number of Ukrainians die for their project. It’s apparently very important to fight Russia with life and life (Ukrainian), but not so important that they’d take any risk themselves whatsoever. It speaks to both the dehumanization of the Ukrainian people, of treating them like fictional heroes rather than conscripts pushed around by larger forces, as well as the implicit sociopathy of the armchair warhawk. The hope, of course, is that the inconsistency prompts someone to actually question their own inconsistencies, as most people don’t think of themselves as warhawks or several times more human than a Ukrainian.
Though there are some other incorrect lines of thought in your comment.
That is not a human on this Lemmy server who can think and respond to the point. And even if you were in the room with some powerful person with the capacity to personally impact the outcome, your request would mean nothing because that’s not how geopolitics work.
These are not comparable things. Instead, this rhetoric is a thought-terminating cliche intended to recenter The Bad Guy ™ rather than address the point made.
Who is talking to countries? We are people talking to one another.
Thanks for addressing a lot of things I let slide for the sake of a good discussion, and thanks for doing it far more succinctly than I could’ve.
Glad I could be helpful!
You are very happy to let Ukrainians ve slaughtered by Putin. Everyone can see whaz instance you are on. Stop acting like you care about Ukraine. Your whole instance is full of licking Putins ass. Giving the genocidal dictator a part of the country with the people he all wants to murder is the worst outcome.
Please don’t invent positions on my behalf. I would prefer Ukrainians to live, thanks. My position prioritizes the common people of Ukraine over the interests of larger powers.
And?
You are inventing fantasies rather than address the realities of what I’m saying. Please return to a real world discourse.
Puting is just the head of a faction. It’s best not to focus too much on him, as you will risk falling for the false understanding that is Great Man Theory. If Putin died tomorrow, Russian policy would be very similar to what it is today, same as if Biden or Zelensky died. These are people whose power and actions depend on larger systems, not just personal whims.
That said I don’t understand what you’re talking about. Which people do you think Putin wants to murder? The people of the Donbas?
Okay, I told the Russian Federation to leave and they said no. Now what?
Fuck off hexbear. You are talking in bad faith. You want russia to win because you love dictatorships.
Oh look, a nazi. Scram!