They line up in front of a courthouse in southeastern France, from morning to evening, and have gathered in the thousands in cities across the country. They hold signs reading, “one rape every six minutes,” “not all men but always a man,” and “giving in is not consenting.”
They chant: “Rapist we see you, victim we believe you.”
Women across France are rallying in support of Gisèle Pelicot, a 72-year-old reluctant icon whose husband is on trial in the city of Avignon for systematically drugging her and inviting dozens of men, 50 of whom are now his co-defendants, into their home to rape her over nearly a decade.
The shocking case has sparked what many women in France call a long-overdue reckoning over “rape culture” and systemic sexism in the way the judicial system handles sexual violence.
not all men but always a man
Pointless sexist bullshit and wrong on its face. I never understood the drive some people have to paint abusive behavior as exclusive to men.
Exactly. If anything, signs like these drag the attention away from the actual issue.
I mean this thread is a good example of that and why such signs are bad
And pray tell, what exactly is the “real” issue?
Men and women being victims of sexual abuse, perpetrated by both men and women. It is not a genderlocked issue.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
Those are the kinds of numbers that come from laws defining rape as penetration and then only counting convictions.
Kind of like how the US had zero married women that were victims of rape by their husbands when it wasn’t a crime for husbands to rape their wives.
that quote you gave was taken entirely out of context. here’s the very next sentence:
In presenting our findings, we argue that a comprehensive look at sexual victimization, which includes male perpetration and adds female perpetration, is consistent with feminist principles in important ways.
No but the number of assaults by men far outweigh the number by women. And that Scientific American article is just your way of brushing off the fact that men are the primary offenders when it comes to sexual assault. You are exactly like the gun enthusiasts who throw the statistics on mental illness as the true cause of gun deaths and not the guns they use.
Edit: Just cause you seem to be including that link everywhere you post here I’m going to include this link to the 2024 study of sexual assault in France.
https://www.statista.com/topics/8875/violence-against-women-in-france/#topicOverview
“Primary” does not mean “always” however
Oh yeah, you got me there. Statistically small number of women who commit sexual assault completely absolves all men of being complicit in the sexual assault committed by mostly men. We definitely have to correct our perceptions on that one. Sure okay.
hey as a guy who was assaulted, please stop saying all men are complicit. do you understand what you’re saying when you say that?
Sorry you’re getting this reaction. I am a man who was abused by women and all the support groups lead to me taking to a room full of women about it. Do men come forward less often? Yes. It would have to be like 1 in 100 men coming forward for it to be equal. I’ve had one other male friend who has been assaulted, but over half of the women I’ve been friends with have.
If it helps anyone with that being anecdotal, you have to look at the statistics of who is doing it: people in power. Just that alone means more men simply have the opportunity. Add to that that men are told sex is power, and that men who have sex often are virile, whereas women who do are slut shamed. It’s getting better, but still far off.
Anyway I’ll take the downvotes, but every statistic we have shown is that men are the primary antagonist in the vast majority of sexual assault against both men and women.
Sexual assault is bad. Apparently you disagree.
Reading the article, it says that both men and women attended the protest against rape culture in France, so the real issue is that France has a rape culture. People vs culture.
This comment section however is about a few of the signs that a few of the protesters carried, and/or the comments from the self proclaimed feminist representative who says they’ll use these protests to promote their own agenda. That’s different, because that’s a gender issue. Men vs. Women.
I understand why some people are annoyed by that, because it splits the people instead of uniting them against the primary enemy: The culture.
Anyway this is just a lemmy thread, and it doesn’t matter who is right, but it shows that even talking about it is a distraction from the “real issue”, because while we are discussing signs and rape statistics, nobody is talking about the rape culture.
I don’t know exactly what the feminist representative wants to do, or if she has a point, but I do believe that we need to be able to unite both men and women to speak freely against the culture, because rape culture is enabled by people who don’t speak about it. Alienating half of them is bad timing in that regard. To stop rape culture we need both men and women to speak against it.
I hope this makes sense. This thread has gone completely off the rails…
I guess it’s sometimes done in the spirit of forcing men to really consider their actions, because most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men. And we usually have plenty excuses for our own abusive behavior. So it is like saying: “no, stop with the excuses, the problem is you”, in the hopes that this message will also reach its intended audience, ie the many men who are abusive to women in one way or another and, largely, in denial.
But I agree, these kinds of slogans annoy the hell out of me too and are totally not helpful in more ways than one, e.g., when men seek protection from abuse. I guess there are better ways of making a more forceful point about holding men accountable.
most of the men I know tend to think abusive men are always other men
I’m sure most if not all abusers are in denial and don’t consider themselves abusers, but this slogan gives a pass to ones who happen to be women by insisting that they don’t exist at all.
I don’t think that slogan communicates what you’re saying here well, if at all
There’s a comedian who told a story, that I feel almost every guy can tell as if it was theirs…
They had that friend in their friends group. You know, the kne always making misogynic jokes etc. Well, yeah, that guy eventually raped someone.
You know where he says it was his, the comedian’s, fault? The whole group always laughed at those jokes, or maybe didn’t laugh, but definitely didn’t dismiss them, didn’t lecture the guy, didn’t tell him it was not ok.
There’s this men’s club where misogyny is an accepted business as usual. And it enables deranged individuals.
So, as a man who’s aware of the statistics, you can start doing some prevention: shame other men for misogyny.
Oh, and btw, fuck the lady with sign. She’s a petty sexist using someone’s tragedy to support her hate for men.
As a man, “that” guy initially received physical consequences, and is now locked in a box. All the people that made that happen also identified as men. It’s almost like rape is bad and everyone agrees, including men.
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yeah, that 4% of sexual assaults being committed by women that are being totally ignored by the media is the REAL problem.
I can’t speak for how their “sexual violence” criterion is defined, but as for the “rape” statistic, most western countries (France probably included) define rape for reporting purposes as “forced penetration”, specifically excluding “forced envelopment” from the statistic, and thereby excluding practically all male rape victims with female perpetrators from crime statistics.
For example, here are the statistics for sexual violence in the year 2011, according to the CDC (note that these are for the US, and may be significantly different for France, though the reporting method is likely the same - there’s also a 2013 CDC report with effectively the same numbers for the US):
an estimated 1.6% of women reported that they were raped in the 12 months preceding the survey. The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
And
The percentages of women and men who experienced these other forms of sexual violence victimization in the 12 months preceding the survey were an estimated 5.5% and 5.1%, respectively.
Added together, we see that 7.1% of women and 5.1% of men reported being victims of sexual violence in 2011. That is, 58% of victims of all sexual violence in 2011 were women, and 42% were men. For every 3 female victims, there were 2 male victims.
Now on to the frequently cited claim that more than 95% of perpetrators are men. From the “Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators” section about a third of the way down, keeping in mind the percentages above:
For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators (more on this later…). In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators.
And
For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%), and unwanted sexual contact (an estimated 54.7%). For noncontact unwanted sexual experiences, nearly half of male victims (an estimated 46.0%) had only male perpetrators and an estimated 43.6% had only female perpetrators.
To help us with the breakdowns of these numbers, earlier in the report we find that:
1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey [and] an estimated 1.3% of men experienced sexual coercion in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 1.6% of men having experienced unwanted sexual contact in the 12 months before taking the survey [and] an estimated 2.5% of men experienced this type of victimization (noncontact unwanted sexual experiences) in the previous 12 months
So, of the 1.7% of made to penetrate male victims, 82.6% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.3% sexual coercion, 80% of perpetrators were female. Of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, 54.7% were female, and of the 2.5% noncontact, 43.6% were female.
So, 1.4% of the 1.7% made to penetrate, 1% of the 1.3% sexual coercion, .9% of the 1.6% unwanted sexual contact, and 1.1% of the 2.5% noncontact.
So, 4.4% of the 7.1% of men reporting sexual violence had female perpetrators. That is, 62% of sexual violence against men is committed by women (in 2011).
So, going back to our numbers above, we see that 62% of the 42% of sexual violence with men as victims was committed by women.
Our final numbers are: 74% of sexual violence in total in the US is committed by men, and 26% is committed by women. Which ain’t great, but that feels a lot more realistic than “95%”, and it’s a far cry from the intentionally misleading numbers you’re citing.
BUT IT GETS WORSE…
What happens when we look at just rape? Note that first we have to figure out what the CDC means by “rape”, because at first “99% of rape is committed by men” looks pretty damning.
Well, “rape” is defined by the CDC for the purposes of this study as “completed or attempted forced penetration or alcohol- or drug-facilitated penetration”. That is, only being penetrated counts as rape.
Men, on the other hand, get the completely separate category “made to penetrate”, that is, “being forced to have sex with someone, just doing the penetrating instead of being penetrated.”
So, 99% of rapists are men because rape is intentionally defined as “being penetrated” to exclude male victims of rape from the statistics. I wonder why…
Well, what happens when we actually look at those numbers, counting “made to penetrate” as, y’know, rape, because it is rape?
an estimated 1.6% of women (or approximately 1.9 million women) were raped in the 12 months before taking the survey
And
The case count for men reporting rape in the preceding 12 months was too small to produce a statistically reliable prevalence estimate.
Which is, again, because male rape victims are effectively excluded from this definition. Also, we have this:
an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey
And
Characteristics of Sexual Violence Perpetrators For female rape victims, an estimated 99.0% had only male perpetrators. In addition, an estimated 94.7% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape had only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (an estimated 79.3%) had only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims had only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (an estimated 82.6%), sexual coercion (an estimated 80.0%),
Note that these numbers clearly show that made to penetrate happens just as much each year as “rape”. This means that fully half of rape victims are men (in 2011 - the number fluctuates in the other years of the study, but not more than 5%).
Finally, if 99% of rapists are men and 83% of an equal number of “made to penetrators” are women … then an estimated 42% of the perpetrators of nonconsensual sex (that is, rape) in 2011 were women.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it’s important to debunk this sort of misandrist misinformation.
Edit: Here’s a Time article that confirms these numbers. They also mention that boys under 15 are more likely to be sexually assaulted than women over 40, and are more than twice as likely to be assaulted as girls under 15. Again, this may be different for France, but it’s pretty damning for the US.
The police who recite such stats in my area don’t consider me a victim of my repeated assaults, specifically because of my gender. I guess I should probably pipe down and stop being so uppity and hysterical though. After all my private parts are outside of my body so they’re basically asking to be used by anyone.
I don’t know where in the stats I quoted it said anything about dismissing male victims? In fact that statistic includes male victims because most sexual assault on males is committed by other males. Now if you were assaulted by a woman I’m sorry and that’s terrible, but the fact is that it’s a rarity in comparison to the acts committed by men. But all should be treated with equal seriousness. And none of it is, because men are in power and they don’t tend to consider rape or sexual assault a “real” crime.
I’m not out to debate the statistics of “REAL problem” with you. I’m pointing out that it’s counterproductive (and I believe morally wrong) to tell survivors they’re unworthy because their abuser was a woman. I get the feeling some people care more about gendering this issue than they do about about victims of abuse.
Yeah literally no one is saying that a victim of sexual assault is unworthy of anything because their assaulter is a woman and not a man. We’re talking about the issue of men thinking it’s okay to sexually assault because it’s almost never fucking prosecuted.
Bringing up the statistic of female perpetrators is simply a way of deflecting the responsibility of men to acknowledge and hold accountability to their fellow men who commit sexual assault.
I’ve said it elsewhere in this thread but this is exactly the same as the gun enthusiasts bringing up mental illness statistics as a way of absolving guns of their role in gun violence.
Thread has a photo of a sign saying “not all men but always a man”.
Bringing up the statistic of female perpetrators is simply a way of deflecting the responsibility of
No. Bringing up the statistic is a way of correcting an intentionally skewed view that is vilifying men for no fucking reason. If you’re gonna be a dick about things, don’t go crying when you get shafted.
Since men are the primary perpetrators it’s not skewed not even a little bit. Yes, there are women who commit sexual assault but the number of women who do it is such a small percentage as to be almost statistically insignificant compared to the number of men who do.
Men commit sexual assault every single day and barely 5% of them get prosecuted for it. And every person who claps back with this idiotic argumentative excuse that “women do it too” is just feeding into a system that has made this world completely unsafe for women.
men are the primary perpetrators
the number of women who do it is such a small percentage as to be almost statistically insignificant compared to the number of men who do.
Men commit sexual assault every single day
barely 5% of them get prosecuted for it.
Citation needed
Listen, it’s very obvious we’re not on the same page. You’re responding to a comment thread that contains a comment literally contradicting most of your points, and you’re not being rational about it. You’re spouting wild claims with little regard for backing them up - it’s as if în your head, they’re axioms and not only do they not require proof, but invalidating them would mean the rest of the world crumbles. And I’m sure for you, that’s true.
All things considered, continuing this “discussion” brings no value to either of us. Have a good one.
Citation needed
Yeah, this just told me everything I need to know. I didn’t even read the rest of your comment. I’m just going to downvote you and move on.
Yeah, the victims of women are just babies who should quit crying about being a victim. As if it’s a REAL problem, right? Who gives a shit, they’re just men they don’t have any feelings they’re just here for our entertainment.
I don’t like that sign. Sure, when she gets raped it’s probably a man but every time it’s happened to me so far it has been a woman, so, no not “always a man.”
“Good” news is that while I was forced to have sex (or else what was I gonna do fight her? Yeah that won’t end with me in cuffs) it isn’t rape because definitionally the worst women can do in my area is sexual assault, and people only care if you’re a minor, just try and report it as an adult. Most people just think “oh you’re a man you must’ve liked it” and just minimize it away because we’re just sex objects so who fucking cares, I just had to get the fuck over it and I did, but it still pisses me off that I’m literally the victim of this shit and treated like a perpetrator by default just because I happen to have a penis, it’s the ultimate “fuck you” on top really.
As a male SA victim I have been repeatedly told that it was my fault for having the privilege. So I guess “you’re welcome” to both of us.
Women will continue to have their feelings trampled on by men because that’s all they’re teaching us as kids.
You should look inwards to figure out why you’re so outraged by the existence of male rape victims. It’s a you issue.
WTF is wrong with you
Came here to see discussions about the truly insane case mentioned in the article. Actually found an entire comment section full of ‘not all men’ vs ‘basically all men’ threads
Do I want to scroll down? Nah, not really.
I’ll just leave this here: No, not all men are rapists. Yes, all men should stand up to them. It’s that simple and if you deviate from that formula you dive into rape culture or misandry, depending, are part of the problem, actively, passively, in one way or the other.
As a man, have this attitude (there’s subtitles).
As a woman… “Dudes it’s only an embellishment” “noone thinks ‘all men’ is meant seriously” STFU you’re being catty you know exactly how often women use covert aggression, use plausible deniability to get away with the vilest shit, even if you don’t mean it like that right now, in this instance, it’s still how it’s perceived, and no, not all men deserve to be treated like that. So cut it out.
Then maybe you should understand that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
Now consider: how many women do you see convicted and jailed for rape?
crickets
That’s the sound of massive gender bigotry in play, right there - 50% of all cross-gender rapists getting away Scott-free, purely by virtue of their gender.
His point is that is not what the article is about. It’s off-topic.
I get that you’re passionate about getting your point across but it’s swamping the discussion a bit.
It’s not off topic. If you link me to a YouTube video with a sponsor that really sucks, I’m gonna talk about how that sponsor sucks. You can’t just tack on some garbage and be all “just ignore that part, it’s not up for debate.”
I understand that it merits discussion but every thread on this post is about that aspect, and that’s frankly a bit much.
Show me a sign that’s demonizing me, and I’m gonna focus on that rather than whatever they’re pretending the sign is about. You teach your boys that their feelings don’t matter and that they’re bad out the gate and that’s how they’re gonna treat you when they’re older.
You teach your boys that their feelings don’t matter and that they’re bad out the gate
Cue mandatory anti-rape training at higher ed, but only for men, ramming home the myth that men are the source of all of society’s ills and the villain in all possible crimes.
Whoa that escalated quickly, and is entirely not about what I was saying.
Well if you wanna be on topic, address the problem instead of making it worse. We’re in here criticizing those people making it worse. Quit defending their bullshit.
Ok, wow, this is a fucked up thread.
I just came here to say “More power to her!”, she’s setting an incredible example and we need to turn back the misogyny and just general sexual violence that we’ve had in society since time immemorial.
Wow, so smart and supportive of you to pick a side and fling shit the other way.
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My heart breaks for her. I’m glad she gets to see the support of those around her while going through this. And Jesus fuck, how can you even do that to someone? I just cannot wrap my mind of being able to hurt someone like that, and then to keep doing that, and just go on living life. I’m not religious, but I hope that man burns in hell.
I think I would have more sympathy with those focusing on the “not all men but always a man” sign if this weren’t in the context of a woman being drugged by her husband and then said husband inviting about 50 random men to rape her, over 10 years.
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
I agree with you. Yes, this is not the time nor the place to go full on men’s rights activism, 100% correct.
But if someone tells a rape victim his experience does not account because he part of the 4%, then nobody won anything at all, and I will speak my mind about such a heinous statement, the same way I will speak my mind about any one telling Woman shit like “It happened bc you dressed so seductive”, "You sure he heard you saying No?"etc etc. .
One of the worst times to advocate for men’s rights/issues is when everyone is talking about the heinous crimes a bunch of men have done. Especially if the comments you’re leaving are focusing on how women rape just as much as men do, etc.
Agreed. Unfortunately there’s always gonna be a whataboutism as long as men feel unheard…
People can lose empathy when they think the world is ignoring them. It’s taken me years to move on from people telling me to “man up” or “get over it” about my SA.
I really hope that at some point male victims of sexual assault will work to create a movement of support. It’s not ok that y’all get told to man up, and it’s not ok that y’all are often used as a way to shut down discussions of sexual violence against women.
Absolutely agreed.
Something I used to hear regarding feminism was that it also fought for men’s rights even if indirectly for equality purposes. While I wouldn’t say it’s accurate of the movement now, I will say that it’d be a nice thing for men’s rights groups to pick up. If these movements want to be heard then they must be willing to listen to the voices of women and be willing to bring their own to justice.
Yo, feminists have been leading the charge on shit like paternity leave (FMLA was feminists), battered men’s shelters (now there’s four! In the country!) and getting equality of rulings on spousal abuse or visitation rights. Don’t buy into the alt-right BS about how the movement used to be good but now it’s just full of all those self-centered women, and I only hate the current version. It’s a really common line, and it’s bullshit.
I’ll be completely honest: I don’t really know which organizations/movements are doing what these days. There’s too much to keep track of. The groups where I am aren’t particularly kind though. That’s coming from my knowledge of an experience with a family member’s divorce, so I apologize for being misinformed.
I just do what I think is right. It’s all I have energy for.
As a modern feminist I think that’s one of the differences between the third and fourth waves. The third wave (and early second wave) had a strong emphasis on “feminism is for everyone” and was much more “theory based” if that makes sense. The fourth wave is generally understood to be defined by the era of mass social media. It’s been hardened by things like gamergate, the me too movement, and the rabid opposition to the third wave by reactionary men refusing to accept that it was the most pro man wave feminism saw. I don’t think it’s tactically wise or theoretically sound, but I get and feel the anger. That said I’m generally more pro third wave as a whole, including thinking bell hooks really understood how patriarchy negatively impacts men.
But yeah, modern feminist culture is jaded and angry, and for good reason. And I do agree that a men’s movement to deal with y’all’s issues would be incredibly helpful so long as you’re able to keep the reactionary voices out of it. Because from this woman’s perspective, a lot of men really need to develop friendships based on mutual care and understanding. Women can’t fix the malaise men are currently showing, and reactionaries can only make it worse.
‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Otherwise, I’m absolutely in favour of rehabilitation, and if necessary, isolation of rapists - of all genders. I hope the court/government can be made to agree
From the article:
The number of sexual assault victims in France increased by 33% in 2021 and nearly doubled from 2017, according to a government report. Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
It seems that sexual violence has been hidden in plain sight and downplayed heavily by the police and justice system, or simply socially accepted.
It’s estimated 10% of people have been victim of incest, here in France. How can you build something safe based on that.
I don’t believe our current justice system allows for proper rehabilitation. Second offense for such crimes are still very high (10%?).
IMHO It’s a nation wide educational failure and our politicians aren’t really keen on fixing this, for now.
Keep in mind those numbers don’t perfectly reflect reality though. Probably a few percents off in favor of women
Were you responding to something specific I said or just providing more facts?
Just providing more facts on the “all men” plus maybe a bit more context on the situation here.
If you flag the same post multiple times again, you will be banned.
You cannot flag the same post multiple times on Lemmy.
You’re under the impression it is because it’s an exact copy paste comment multiple times in the same post which is the reason I flagged it as spam…
‘Not all men but always a man’ seems to marginalise victims of female rapists, which do exist.
Oh, it’s much worse than that: the CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
50% of all cross-gender rapists are women, and yet almost 100% of all convicted rapists are men.
What an exemplary case of systemic gender bigotry and misandry in society and the legal establishment.
Women made up 89% of rape victims, while 96% of sexual violence perpetrators were men.
Oh yes that 4% really really must be stopped.
Yes.
All of it should be. Why the fuck shouldn’t it be stopped too? Wtf?
Nice try from an overly quoted study done on bad faith, here is a better one that shows, with sources, that said study is incorrect.
From your article, “In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men.”
I like how he talks about the “overly quoted study” (which is not actually where the statistic in the article comes from, but whatever) and yet he has posted this same article literally everywhere in here as a way of justifying dismissal of the fact that nearly all rapes and sexual assaults are committed by men.
imagine taking this story, about where a woman was systematically drugged and raped for OVER 10 YEARS, and going “ah yes but what about the men?!?”. I truly feel for the men in the comments sharing their stories, and I hope they continue to share and raise awareness, but Jesus y’all not the time
Yeah exactly. I’m a man who was assaulted as a kid by a woman. Shit happens. But looking at what shit happens most often - it’s sexual violence perpetrated by men against women.
I don’t know how we change that. Maybe by continuing to level up the power dynamic between men and women, I feel like we’ve been making some progress with that over the past century. Finally. But it’s more than that, there are too many idiot arseholes who think they can have anything their fists can beat down. Almost all of them are men.
Pretty much every girlfriend and female friend I’ve ever had has had bad experiences with men. Women I have cared about over the years have had experiences across the spectrum from cat calling and comments back when they were kids in school uniforms all the way through to stranger rape. Domestic violence isn’t uncommon either.
I dunno, I wish I had a solution. It fuckin breaks my heart - when a close friend or a partner opens up about what happened to her and there’s nothing you can do, it’s years too late, you have these thoughts like if I’d been there I could have stopped it- but it happened years ago and you are fuckin helpless to do anything except maybe hug her if she’s comfortable with that, or if not try to tell her it’s over, she’s safe and stronger now, whatever you think might help.
You don’t realise how harmful sexual assault is until you’ve been unable to help someone you love. The key word isn’t ‘sexual’, it’s ‘assault’.
Shit like that makes me fuckin ashamed to be a bloke. I don’t know how we fix this, but I’ve got two suggestions for a good start - firstly, we don’t do that shit. Never, there’s never an excuse. Secondly, we fuckin shut down other guys, even if they’re our mates, if they start with that sort of talk.
Yeah, there’s wrong uns in whatever gender. But in terms of atrocity it’s us men well in the lead. We gotta change that. I think we can at least fuckin try.
thanks for being one of the reasonable ones in this comment section lol. and it seems you’re doing a pretty good job of trying to enact change. keep it up, it’s a team effort :)
sorry to hear about your story as well, hope everything is going well for you now.
Cheers, yeah I’ve kinda grown into my own shit. It’s caused me a lot of problems over the years, but I’m getting old now and I’m okay with stuff.
I’m just saying that anyone can get hurt like that, but it’s mostly women getting hurt and it’s mostly men doing the hurting. We’ve got to fuckin stop doing that because it is profoundly wrong.
it’s never the time for male abuse victims to share our stories. we’re used to it. we’re supposed to shut up and deal with it.
no that’s not true at all. you’re supposed to talk about it, to share your stories, to go to therapy, support groups. to make online spaces to discuss and heal and grow. same as women. unfortunately, the only time I ever see men share their stories is when it takes away from a women’s experience, which is disgusting as has been happening more and more on this app.
The problem is the sign in the thumbnail. It sure as good god fuck is not always men and you’re a disgusting liar to claim that.
All men can walk around at night or alone never thinking about it though
Said as another absolute that you shouldn’t, as if PTSD doesn’t exist for men that do get raped but just not as frequently.
Yes it’s skewed but seriously try to avoid absolute statements like that cause it absolutely will push the same victim ignorance that we try to avoid with women comig forward and it will upset people.
Just say “most” or even the “average man”
jesus man, not everything is about you. sure, not all men are sexual predators. easy enough to agree on. but the point is that all men have had opportunities to call their peers out on creepy behavior, whether it’s catcalling, looking down on women, sexualizing them, etc. and failed. each of these 50 plus men in this story could’ve reported this as odd, or talked to the women and made sure she was ok, or hung around until the drugs wore off to double check, and didn’t. each of them were given an opportunity and they took full advantage of it and of her. so yeah. all men have failed women at some point, and each of your MANY comments in this thread are honestly just another example of that, taking away from this poor women’s story to wage your personal crusade.
Husband aside, that’s 50 separate people who thought this was okay. Ffs
Allegedly, they didn’t. Multiple men were contacted through a swingers website, and allegedly led to believe she was a willing participant pretending to be asleep, instead of what she really was, the victim of a disgusting monster, drugged and undressed without her knowledge, for the pleasure of a sick monster.
To the point where one of her abusers, fully aware of what he did, wrote to her to apologize from jail, realizing what he had done under false pretenses, and aware that by not doing his due diligence, he raped her in the literal sense of the word.
Yeah, I feel sympathy for those deceived. With kinks like that due diligence is critical, but they were unknowingly and unwillingly party to harm. I imagine that that’s going to haunt some of them forever.
It’s definitely important to keep the focus on the primary victim, what was done to her is the stuff of nightmares, but I can definitely feel sympathy to all who were deceived here.
This is making me really angry. They knowingly and willingly had sex with her without getting her consent because they didn’t believe it was important enough. They had no problem with someone else speaking for her. This is part of what she is trying to bring attention to and you are pretending these men are victims. I am disgusted. Due diligence? Really? This is rape not a fucking business transaction. The fact that they could be so careless about her bodily autonomy and need no consent from her is damning of them and of you for defending them. Fuck everything about this.
Because he said it was their kink to them.
50 codefendants in a case against one woman? How horrific.
Thank you to the French women doing this. However, since this is France, my biggest worry is this will be shot down with a big red flag/note saying:
How can we fix this when the government keeps protecting the real rapists: minorities
Yeah Western Europe culturally not looking too clever these days re right wing shit. Not that America is doing any better mind.
And yet, what no-one wants to face is the fact that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
I mean, yes - let’s lock up convicted rapists. But if 50%of cross-gender rapists are women yet almost 100% of convicted rapists are men, there’s some seriously weapons-grade gender bigotry at play, there.
A legal system that is truly based on equality should see about a 50/50 split of male/female rapists convicted, and for largely equal time served as well.
I think you are hand-picking numbers here. The most current CDC Report on Intimate Partner Violence does not support your claims. https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/NISVSReportonIPV_2022.pdf
The report you picked excludes quite a lot of victims as it’s about intimite partner violence which it defines as:
The term, intimate partner violence, refers to any physical or sexual violence, stalking, and/or psychological aggression by a current or former dating partner or spouse.
For the full numbers not just for intimate partners you want this report https://www.cdc.gov/nisvs/documentation/nisvsReportonSexualViolence.pdf which confusingly has the same title. It states 2.3% of women raped in a 12 month timeframe and 0.3% of men being raped and 1.3% made to penetrate in the same timeframe, so 1.6% of men either raped or made to penetrate.
So for the first study, I have my emotionally abusive ex that would threaten suicide (at the drop of a hat, but also) when I wasn’t in the mood, and for the “full numbers” there’s the two women I never dated that raped me. Huh, neat. I wonder why the only three abusive women to exist in the world chose me. Couldn’t be that it’s more common than people think or anything, no waaaay.
I took a look at the CDC report. Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story. It’s interesting to see why there’s a jump in those numbers for the 12 months preceding, but otherwise if you look at lifetime numbers women are victimized at significantly higher rates than men.
an estimated 19.3% of women and 1.7% of men have been raped during their lifetimes
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong. I only saw the 1.6% of men reporting “unwanted sexual contact” in the last 12 months, which is compared to the women reporting at 2.2% of women, which is while still almost 40% higher, closer than lifetime experiences which are estimated at 27.3% vs 10.8%. Guess which is which.
An estimated 43.9% of women and 23.4% of men experienced other forms of sexual violence during their lifetimes, including being made to penetrate, sexual coercion, unwanted sexual contact, and noncontact unwanted sexual experiences.
This includes being made to penetrate and other things, again if you can find where the 1.6% comes from please let me know.
An estimated 15.2% of women and 5.7% of men have been a victim of stalking during their lifetimes
this is interestingly one of the categories where it is not as close in the last 12 months: women’s rate double men’s. not central to my overall point but it is surprising because if anything I expected this to be closer than other categories, considering social media making stalking easier. just a note.
here’s an interesting part about “always a man”:
women are predominantly predated by men in all forms, but men are predominantly made to penetrate and coerced by women (I guess this is expected more than men would be doing this?), while penetrated predominantly by men (I guess obvious) and suffering other forms of sexual predation including stalking by a relatively even rate of men and women.
That sounds like it all comes pretty close to “always a man”.
that’s being penetrated, I think it doesn’t include being made to penetrate, which is covered in other forms of sexual violence.
Right, in many municipalities it’s impossible for a woman to be charged with rape for forcing someone to have sex with them through coercive means. Until that is no longer the case “men rape more than women” is like saying “you’re more likely to starve without food.” No shit, because definitionally woman legally cannot be charged with rape for raping.
You see how that skews the data, right? Sure “it’s all men” if you don’t count the women, why would that surprise anyone?
those cases are not relevant here. the data we’re talking about is not skewed. they cover all these other situations independent of municipality. also these are not numbers on reported cases (they’re included in the study) but estimated actual numbers.
With how unlikely men are to report (or sometimes, they don’t even realize they have been raped), I’m not sure how they can accurately estimate.
In any case, making it a gendered issue and lumping me, a victim, in with the perpetrators simply because I was born with a penis, and lumping my rapists in with the victims because they were born with vaginas, isn’t what I call “cool.” I’d much prefer if we made it a victims VS victimizers thing, rather than a men VS women thing, personally.
Furthermore this whole “women can’t rape men” thing needs to be fixed. I simply will not have the conversation about “who rapes who more” until it is fixed, by acknowledging it as a legitimate law I am erasing my own experiences and enabling others to do so.
literally no one lumped you in. you’re being weird right now
also no one here said women can’t rape men, which incidentally is a patriarchal concept to begin with. so consider it fixed. men do it more. significantly more.
“Always men.”
“Literally nobody lumped you in.”
Uhh, yeah, the author of the sign did. And so do the literal laws in many places by excluding woman perpetrators.
It’s absolutely NOT fixed until the law is changed you absolute muppet.
Those comparable numbers are only about the 12 months preceding the survey which is, while probably statistically significant, not the whole story.
How’s that relevant? It looks at one year and within that year the number of rape/made-to-penetrate victims is roughly equal for men and women. Unless there was something unusual happening that year or the same men are made to penetrate more often then women get raped, then if you extend the timeframe the numbers should change similarly for men and women.
side note: I don’t know how the article got numbers for “being made to penetrate” specifically, the CDC article doesn’t seem to specifically say it. maybe I skimmed it wrong.
From the 2011 study in the Results section:
For men, the lifetime prevalence of being made to penetrate a perpetrator was an estimated 6.7% (>7.6 million men), while an estimated 1.7% of men were made to penetrate a perpetrator in the 12 months preceding the survey.
wow, your argument really becomes impenetrable once you concede to "unless"es and “if” and "should"s.
there is an extended timeline. it’s called lifetime. and it tells a different story.
about the stats: thanks for finding it, I mixed the numbers and was looking for the 1.6% … anyway, looking for lifetime numbers, if you compare women who have been raped vs men who were raped and made to penetrate combined, the numbers add up to 19.3% of women vs 1.7+6.7 = 8.4% of men assuming zero overlap. that’s still more than double the rate of men.
in the same section for sexual violence other than rape, women’s rates nearly double men’s in lifetime numbers. again for some reason much closer in the 12 months preceding.
sexual coercion: 12.5% vs 5.8% lifetime (more than double) and not that close in the 12 months as other categories, 2% vs 1.3% (1.5x approximately)
etc etc…
I don’t know what the fuck happened between 2010 and 2011 but the numbers for that year do not reflect lifetime experiences of people at all. it makes no sense to disregard the extended timeline and instead use the snippet to extrapolate.
The share may differ - I’m not aware of it being equal and you bring up interesting stats right there - but regardless, men can absolutely be victims of all kinds of abuse, and we have to treat it seriously.
Yes, men forced to do what they don’t like or coerced to have sex is rape, and same for women.
Some American jurisdictions can’t even properly report a male victim of rape or sexual assault because their software is hard-coded to assign the victim as female and the perp as male.
Plus, the vast majority of men have been brainwashed into thinking that it is impossible for a woman to rape a man. So many of them don’t even see their rape as a rape, and frequently blame themselves.
And for the cherry on top, male rape victims can and frequently are forced to pay child support to their rapist if a child is conceived, thereby further traumatizing them. This happens even if the male victim was a minor - upon their 18th birthday they are hit with tens of thousands in arrears, and face jail time if they cannot immediately begin paying. Imagine - jailing a rape victim for the product of their rape!!
Think of how this would go down if the genders were swapped, and then ask yourself: why isn’t it going down like that as it currently is?
Because men don’t matter. Because men are trivially disposable. Because if men cannot provide something of value, they are worse than useless: they are a threat to society and need to be violently coerced into being useful. It’s why so many men are saying, “thanks, but no thanks” to the various “traditional” societal expectations of them (career, marriage, and even relationships entirely), and are going their own way. And I don’t blame them one bit.
I follow you, until the last part.
“Men don’t matter”, “women don’t matter” - those statements often seem to imply that the other gender is dominant and treats the other as disposable. This is not true - both men and women heavily suffer from bias, discrimination, and abuse - both in their own ways.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women, and should be thrown out the window. This includes a traditional concept that men are always perpetrators but not victims of abuse, among other things - something that is still commonly ignored, sometimes out of genuine ignorance, sometimes in bad faith.
“women don’t matter”
I have never heard that, anywhere within the last half a century. A statement like that would be seen as misogyny of the highest order, and would have the speaker publicly crucified on the altar of public opinion.
I mean, sure - it might be uttered in dark, hidden, ChristoFascist corners, but that isn’t spoken anywhere in public like the statement “kill all men” is widely lauded and celebrated by female supremacists.
Traditional expectations hurt everybody, men and women,
Then why have women been allowed to disgorge almost all of theirs, while men are being constantly nailed to the wall for theirs?
Women have been able to nearly completely release the “homemaker” status (yay! - honestly), but a man who wants to be a homemaker will nearly always remain a life-long bachelor. Having a prestigious, well-paying career (or, at least, the potential for one) is nearly always a woman’s first consideration in a man.
If a career-oriented man can (and frequently do) wife up some minimum-wage barista with oodles of student loans, why do career women almost always only look above their current economic level for mates? Because that is a reinforcement of traditional expectations.
In the context of this post this is disgusting to bring up.
This doesn’t have any bearing on what this old lady was put through.
In the context of this comment section, and the image that was chosen to lead the article, it is not disgusting and it simply makes sense.
She is a fucking hero, she is brave and she gives hope to us rape victims. But if on the same breath you praise her and the people who support her, and dismiss a fuckton of rape victims just because the perpetrators of their particular rapes were women, then that is bound to raise a significant level of discomfort and take away from what the story should be, giving support to the victim of The Beast of Avignon and all rape victims, encouraging them to come forward.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
So basically, “not all men and not all women” should have been the slogan in the first place.
Yes. That is a very even and equal statement that properly balances the reality of the situation.
But equality was never their goal. That’s why those who have rationally and logically studied the ideology call the practitioners female supremacists, and are likely to call themselves egalitarianists.
Oddly defensive response you have.
I’m so tired of walking into a post about women getting sexually assaulted and seeing a wall of “BuT WhAt AbOuT MeN!?!” comments. You people are so fucking stupid.
Edit: To the downvoters, please explain why you think it’s appropriate to make a discussion about a woman being raped by 100+ men all about you. You’re so fucking fragile.
Edit 2: Just an amazing lack of self awareness in these replies. Turns out some people really don’t see a problem with hijacking a post about women being sexually assaulted to make it all about them instead. That’s enough internet for today.
I’m not one of them, but the problem is the sign in the thumbnail. Without that I doubt it would’ve upset as many people.
Nah, that’s just a pretext. They’re just as bad as the “all lives matter” folks.
Nah lol I literally would be in here in full support without the sign, but with the sign I am reminded that even though I have been raped by two different women, not only am I seen as a horrid abuser for the crime of having been born with a penis, the women who raped me are seen as victims for the virtue of having a vagina. Erasing male victims and woman perpetrators in one fell swoop really isn’t a good look, it makes the issue gendered rather than about abusers V victims, and then to turn it around and claim that men are making it “all about us” as if the sign didn’t lead us there in the first place is some A+ victim blaming.
If women don’t like that the conversation becomes about male victims in response to their erasure of male victims (and in this case woman perpetrators), then women should start speaking up for ALL victims instead of erasing us, regardless of how insignificant they think we are ignoring us is hurting OUR cause, yes “ours:” victims’ regardless of gender.
My dude, this post, and that sign, are not about you. They’re about a woman being raped by over 100 men.
THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT YOU.
Then put that on the sign, not “always men” ffs. The sign is a lie and a problem and the fact that you can’t see that means you’re part of that problem.
To be quite frank, the vast majority of sexual violence against women is perpetrated by men. The vast majority of all sexual violence is against women.
I understand you feel your particular experience is unrepresented, but this particular case, and rallies, and signs etc… Are simply not about you or your experiences. This is about sexual violence against women. If you can’t see that, and you insist on inserting yourself into a context that has nothing to do with you, then there’s really nothing left to say.
To be quite frank, the vast majority of sexual violence against women is perpetrated by men. The vast majority of all sexual violence is against women.
Oh thank you for clarifying why you think me being raped is insignificant and doesn’t matter. Wanna go for the rest of the hits while we’re here? “You must have enjoyed it because you’re a man” and “she was hot you should consider yourself lucky,” or who could forget the classic “get over it pussy?”
Fine, if there’s nothing left to say, then say nothing. That’ll be better than what you’ve been doing.
I didn’t even look at the thumbnail. I’m a man btw. If I had to rewrite that sign it might say ‘NOT ALL MEN - JUST TOO MANY’. Or, I dunno, something like that.
I kinda feel like, for blokes there are two important things we can do. Aside from stop having arguments about who’s the bigger victim (it’s women). First is just don’t do that shit. Just don’t. It’s actually easy and rewarding to not be a bad person. Second is don’t let any other guys get away with even talking like that. Even if they’re mates, step the fuck up and let them know that talk is not okay. Let’s be honest, many of us have heard our mates talk about women in a way we weren’t quite comfy with and afterwards thought we should have said something. Say something.
terminally online men try not to take a picture of a random sign in an otherwise unrelated article personally challenge (impossible)
guys always is an embellishment. it’s almost funny that not all men became not always men. obviously not always men but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
Most men never report, or if they do it’s ignored. I’ve only told one person irl about the 2x it’s happened to me (both times I was forced by women btw, how’s that for “it’s always men” hmm?)
MAYBE if whenever we claim “it’s all men” or “it’s always men” or some such sentiment “it always devolves into a discussion about how it’s not all men,” MAYBE it’s time to stop doing that so the conversation can fucking progress? Nah let’s keep up the tribalism, it’s more fun to sow division than actually work on the issue at hand. Ffs.
I think it’s more that as a non rapist I don’t really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
As a non-rapist, I’m sick of constantly being seen as a high-risk individual just for having a penis despite dedicating a lot of attention to consent and being generally a highly empathetic person.
People who know me well trust me and see me as a very safe and gentle person - but in the outside world, I’m equated with rapists around a random trait.
well yeah. are you suggesting women should just trust you because you seem nice? their interactions with men from the moment they first set foot out their door suggests otherwise. to them you are high risk until they know you. you admit that once people know you they do trust you do why are you being so offended that people who don’t know you don’t? they shouldn’t.
you shouldn’t trust any woman that she won’t do anything bad to you either, but the fact remains that you’re in much less of a risk in that regard than a random woman around a random man. the mere notion that this is in any way an equivalent risk is ridiculous.
The thing is, the amount of fear displayed against men is disproportional to the actual risk they pose. This probably has cultural roots, as awareness of such risks turned into an overreaction.
More and more research comes out showing women are fully capable of abusive behavior and display it much more often that we’ve come to believe, yet as little light is shed on this in the public eye, women are still perceived as much more safe, which isn’t true either.
And besides, “men” are too big and diverse of a group to reasonably tie to any possible behavior.
I specifically noted that I don’t believe in any essential differences between men and women. this is all societal, and patriarchy plays a big role not only in the predation of women but also men and the subsequent lack of reporting.
but in the current society women are safer than men. I have never set foot out my door and considered the possibility of being sexually harassed. women do it every time, and no, not just because our perceptions are skewed, but because we have different experiences.
this is anecdotal because i can’t do studies. most of the time defenses are put up by women because they actually go through something. not because they start life that way.
And I specifically meant to say we gain ever increasing knowledge that women are not safer in many regards - not just inherently, but overall. While brute-force attacks against men are less common, harassment, coercion, mental abuse and manipulations are rampant, and are weaponized against everyone, including strangers. (With that being said, some women, especially armed, do engage in direct physical abuse, and men can use mental one).
And I wonder what part of fears average woman faces is personal experience vs culture and upbringing. Same events can be interpreted in many different ways depending on how you are preconditioned, and if we’d train men to be wary of women, we’d certainly see more fears spread around. (Mind you, I do not say women do not face real and clear instances of abuse; some do!)
Well maybe it takes being raped by two different woman before you start feeling bad about being called a rapist for existing with penis despite being a victim. In any case your feelings are not universal and you don’t get to minimize my experiences and tell me how to feel about being categorized with the aggressors while the people who raped ME are categorized with the “only victims who can do no wrong” gender.
this doesn’t at all follow my comment so I assume you replied by accident. you’re just airing grievances, which is your right, but it’s a non sequitur.
I think it’s more that as a non rapist I don’t really take it personally when women talk about concerns about the general attitude they receive from men.
Basically what I’m saying is, maybe you don’t take it personally because you haven’t been raped by women before, but I do take it personally because I have.
The numbers are also suppressed for men because we are not believed or taken seriously whereas women are typically believed by default.
I mean even considering that. if we magically learned the real numbers today there should still be a grand canyon between them. if you think it’s any close you’re either fooling yourself or biased by personal trauma.
just as a note: the argument I’m making is not based on any essential characteristics of men vs women. I’m not arguing men are biologically coded to SA more or whatever. it’s about societal conditions. conditions which, by the way, contribute to the problem you’re talking about.
What ratio do you think has any meaning? What if the meaning is just that men have a higher “success rate” for just being better at it or even just being scarier. What if it just means men are more often consenting where they otherwise shouldn’t be?
I don’t remember calling anything meaningless so I don’t get your first question.
also if men have a better success rate that makes them more of a problem, don’t really get what the argument is there
also don’t understand what you mean consenting where they shouldn’t be. you either consent or don’t. if you’re alluding to coercion that’s not consent and it shouldn’t be named as such. otherwise I don’t get what you mean at all.
but if you think the numbers are comparable you’re living in a fantasy land.
The CDC - the largest medical org on the f**king planet - has clearly established that women rape men as frequently as men rape women:
And now the real surprise: when asked about experiences in the last 12 months, men reported being “made to penetrate”—either by physical force or due to intoxication—at virtually the same rates as women reported rape (both 1.1 percent in 2010, and 1.7 and 1.6 respectively in 2011).
In other words, if being made to penetrate someone was counted as rape—and why shouldn’t it be?—then the headlines could have focused on a truly sensational CDC finding: that women rape men as often as men rape women.
We’re not the ones living in fantasy land – you are, by either ignorance or malice. Which is your source of gender bigotry and misandry?
Its a shame an obviously inflammatory sign and clickbait seeking article image has made it so that the discussion is mostly off topic.
Its insane and the whole evil piece of shit that perpetrated his kink of having multiple people raped by omission and literal drugging and rape gets away from conversations by the obvious bullshit of absolutes is insane to me. how about no victim blaming on either side and recognition that rape is awful abuse of power dynamics that occur whenever its viewed as possible.
But also this post should probably be removed because that sign is meant to cause this kinda of angry response and it leads into a lot of hurt victims and happily ignorant people hand waving it away.
Anyone dug up statistics of how many rapes of women are by women? No?
Why? Cos I’m pretty sure it’s going to be lower than the number committed by men.
Less than men is not the same as “always by men.” I think that’s what people take issue with.
Right, this story about a woman being drugged and raped repeatedly by strangers for years - and people are taking issue with the fuckin semantics on one sign in a crowd photo? Yeah, that’s the problem, right there.
Exactly
