I hate how “anti-war” has been hijacked by these people to mean, let imperialist countries invade whoever they want with no consequences. (in the case of tankies, any imperialist country that isn’t in NATO).
I don’t even know what they (western tankies) get from this. Average dumbass Russian only cares about his ass, and the pretended “glory”. There is no “Conservative brotherhood which spans across the ocean”. They don’t speak your language, they don’t have the same problem, and they hate YOU with passion, because on average, they are racist and dumb.
So my only hypothesis is that tankies think (??) that by going “contrarian” they show how smart they are, and that “did the research” lol.
No, it’s because “America bad”. There’s a lot of reasons to hate America, and the drip feeding of munitions to Ukraine is one of them. I think we should have been sending everything from the start with the only restriction being no hitting civilian targets. A million 155 shells a week. Tomahawks. Predator drones. Hell, even F-15s. I agree, end the war, but end it in a Ukrainian victory with their borders restored.
It’s even worse than that. It’s “America bad, therefore Russia good.” As if there has to be some sort of cosmic balance.
as if there has to be some sort of cosmic balance
Got me laughing, very true observation
The best way to minimize the overall violence of a fight is to use enough force in the first moments to end the fight.
Generally speaking. Maybe.
Tankies entire world view is formed around hating the US.
They will glorify terrible regimes that literally commit genocides and straight up murder thousands of innocents just because that regime is in opposition to US influence.
They use left wing language, but they do not care about leftist issues. They do not care about disabled people getting focibly euthanised, about anyone who dares critique the regime being forcibly silenced, about minorities being genocided (unless the US or NATO does it), that their “socialist states” literally have billionaires while others starve. They think it’s all US propaganda. (Alternatively, they’ll admit part of it and say it’s for the greater good).
It’s like their version of STOP RESISTING.
My Mom said Russia had to attack Ukraine, because they were trying to join NATO. I asked why she thinks Ukraine was trying to join NATO. I’m still digging for a bedrock of logic.
Part of the problem with game theory and finding a “bedrock of logic” is that game theoretical analysis is often recursive. It’s not a stack of prepositions and conclusions; it’s often a loop. Sort of like a resonance structure. I’ve got my gun aimed at you because your gun is aimed at me because my gun is aimed at you … recursively forever.
My understanding is that the US/NATO and the USSR/Russia, ie the two sides of the Cold War, have maintained a sense of peace and security by maintaining a buffer between the two sides. A buffer of distance, which is relevant because it relates to the time it takes nuclear weapons to travel from one adversarial territory to the other.
The Cuban Missile Crisis was basically caused because Cuba was too close to the USA for nuclear missiles to be stored in a way that the balance of MAD could be maintained.
The public declaration (by Kamala Harris, incidentally) that Ukraine would join NATO is a violation of a promise made by Reagan that NATO would not extend to the border of Russia.
It’s similar to the USSR’s attempt to install nuclear missiles in Cuba, in the sense that it’s simply too close.
That’s my understanding of the motivation behind Russia’s invasion. I’m quite new to all this though.
So it’s less like “Stop resisting!” and more like “Drop the gun!”
My suspicion is that MAD overall is diminishing in its power to stabilize the world militarily, as a result of new military technologies coming into play (space-based weapons, drones, AI, hypersonic missiles, iron dome scenarios) as well as more and more nuclear powers coming online, and the increasing probability of nuclear weapons falling into the hands of non-state actors.
And finally there’s China’s overall rise toward the role of hegemonic power.
The Cold War basically organized itself (and hence organized the influences that minimized military action) around two major powers. Now there’s a third major power that’s rapidly accelerating toward becoming the major power. It’s changing all the equations that balanced out in the 1970s, 80s, etc.
The reason Ukraine wanted to join NATO is that Russia already had occupied Crimea and part of Georgia before. All that after Ukraine gave up all the nukes they still had from USSR times. Ukraine was not a threat to Russia before the occupation of Crimea.
Distance is really not much of a factor any more, and hasn’t been for a long time. Kaliningrad and St. Petersburg can already be reached by submarine launched cruise missiles in less than 15 minutes (conservative estimate). And let’s face it, with MAD being a thing, any kind of nuclear strike is likely to escalate into all-out nuclear annihilation, anyway. This makes any attempt at overwhelming the opponent a losing proposition. So in that sense nothing has changed since, oh, the mid-1970s?
Then there is the argument that Russia doesn’t want a long shared border with NATO. Guess what, their aggression has caused Finland and Sweden to join NATO, which has only added to their shared border with NATO. That they already had with Poland and the Baltic states (there is no treaty nor official document prohibiting NATO expansion).
And finally, how hard is it to understand that NATO is a defensive alliance? It is neither politically geared to nor militarily capable of mounting a conquest of Russia. The fact that so many of Russia’s neighbors are eager to join the alliance should be a pretty strong hint as to why it needs to exist in the first place. It is Russia that cannot be trusted, not NATO. And you can’t make your neighbor “drop the gun” in their own house. The Ukrainians were stupid enough already to return their nuclear arsenal to Russia in return for explicit security guarantees. What a mistake that was.
Don’t even get me started on how China is criminally underrated as a manifest threat to world peace…
/me sees title. “Oh, these comments are gonna be fun…”
MAGAts are either too stupid to realize or too fragile to acknowledge that they’re getting ass-fucked by putin. It’s just pathetic.
Are you aware the Biden administration hasn’t spoken to Putin’s staff in two years?
Is there, in your analogy, a macho, straight, totally non anal-sex-related kind of dignity in that refusal to communicate with a nuclear adversary?
I just listened to Tucker Carlson interview Sergei Lavrov. Is that me just going to town on Putin’s veiny cock? Is this whole thing just a big revealer of who’s really gay and who’s not?
If Russia stops fighting there would be no war. If Ukraine stops fighting there would be no Ukraine.
Well said.
Literally repeating US State Dept. talking points.
And? The saying was popular before Blinken’s speech btw.
I can’t find an earlier source. And it’s not accurate:
Boris Johnson Pressured Zelenskyy to Ditch Peace Talks With Russia: Ukrainian Paper
In the weeks ahead of Johnson’s April 9 visit, high-level diplomatic talks held in Belarus and Turkey had failed to yield a diplomatic breakthrough, though reports in mid-March indicated that Russian and Ukrainian delegations “made significant progress” toward a 15-point peace deal that would involve Ukraine renouncing its NATO ambitions in exchange for the withdrawal of Moscow’s troops.
This guy floating up to the sky when US State Department says that gravity is real
… and the WMD’s will be found any day now in Iraq General Powell.
I don’t think you understood the joke. Do you know the saying about a broken clock?
Wait, why are tankies siding with magas? I’ve been intentionally away for a minute, what did I miss?
Did something major happen in the last three days? Or is this the usual redirection of hate after we’ve found something to rally around?
multi-polar imperialism
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war, and are the one who want it to continue. It is categorically false that Russia is interested in ruling all of Ukraine. Tolerating or believing such BS ensures your own oppression. Every US war is tolerated because you are brainwashed into stories of their leader deserving US aggression. War/sanctions is not for your benefit. Pressing for nuclear war with your absurd lies and tolerance for demonic diminishment of world is bad for you too.
There seems to be a “wokeness” over propaganda for Israel genocide, Syria insurection, and every single other war and coup the US is involved in, and the corporatist oligarchist propaganda subjugating you, and meant to subjugate you. When you humanize such disgusting lying propaganda as Russia is the one who is the aggressor in Ukraine, your idiocy fully guarantees your oppression, and you get these disappointing expectations that NYT can be “left wing” while neocon/Israel first oligarchist liars instead.
US and Ukraine puppet rulers 100% instigated the war, and are the one who want it to continue.
So you’re saying Russia doesn’t want the war to continue? So why are they fighting in Ukraine then? What are their actual goals and when will the invasion stop?
It is categorically false that Russia is interested in ruling all of Ukraine.
What evidence makes you so sure, and how do you explain the fact that Russia tried to invade Kyiv? Or do you disagree that Russia tried to invade Kyiv?
So you’re saying Russia doesn’t want the war to continue? So why are they fighting in Ukraine then? What are their actual goals and when will the invasion stop?
When Ukraine agrees to stay neutral and not join NATO. That simple. Same as prior to war, or 1 month after war. They would idealy denazify, or at least eliminate persecutory anti-Russian laws, or if they don’t allow referendums for anti-nazi regions to join Russia.
What evidence makes you so sure, and how do you explain the fact that Russia tried to invade Kyiv? Or do you disagree that Russia tried to invade Kyiv?
The siege of Kyiv did motivate Ukrainian peace talks. Was likely a mistake to withdraw in good faith based on agreement in talks.
What’s the principle behind Russia being allowed to prevent Ukraine or another country from entering alliances? Why doesn’t this same principle apply to the Baltic states? And if Russia were to successfuly capture all of Ukraine, would it then have a right to demand similar neutrality from Moldova, Romania, and other states it would then borders? And does the same principle apply the other way - i.e. would it have been just for NATO to say Belarus can’t ally with Russia when Lukashenko took over and invaded them?
Putin said in a speech in Feb 2022 that the idea of Ukraine as an independent nation is a fiction and blames Lenin for its existence. He has always believed the entire area belongs to Russia as he said it himself.
Irrelevant context of insulting Ukraine. All that matters is conditions for ending/avoiding war. Not history that in restrospect proves Ukrainians to be assholes.
Weird. Even the Libertarian CATO institute agrees with you:
The U.S. and NATO Helped Trigger the Ukraine War. It’s Not ‘Siding With Putin’ to Admit It
Nazi apologist 🥳
Ad hominem’s, sad 😔 I’m more concerned with historical facts:
The Eurasian Chessboard: Brzezinski Mapped Out “The Battle for Ukraine” in 1997
It’s all about maintaining the US position as the world’s sole superpower
I wouldn’t say “Nazi apologist” is an ad hominem… It seems directly related to the discussion at hand.
I wasn’t aware Ukraine or Russia were National Socialists. Reducto ad Hitlerum.
Is there a “trying to fit everything you don’t like into a fallacy in order to dismiss it outright” fallacy?
There is the “fallacy fallacy,” but that’s slightly different I believe (though you’re also doing that one).
But I’ll indulge: You know nobody was referring specifically to the National Socialist party of 1930s Germany. Don’t be obtuse.
If you try to infer that the argument of your opponent can be dismissed because of their character, then it is a clear argumentum ad hominem
I’m really curious how or why it works. Do they hate US so much that anyone against the US seems a hero to them, despite being off the same kind but pretending to be a communist/socialist?
I am curious about this as well. At least in some cases, it seems to be due to “alternate facts”, e.g., https://lemmy.ca/comment/13198294
Damn, that’s alternate as fuck 🤢
That was an… interesting read 😅
Are they saying that the U.S. was preparing Ukraine for war in 2014… Which Russia had started moving their forces in 2013 and started the invasion in February of 2014. It’s like how people try to say “well Russia wouldn’t have invaded Ukraine if Trump had still been president”… When Russia mobilized their troops and equipment and marched them there for the invasion while Trump was still President.
I have to ask, why do people simp for putin? not russia, but putin?
Can you give an example of someone who doesn’t simp for russia, but simps for Putin?
Are there any arguments from those in favor of supplying weapons to Ukraine that isn’t some kind of sexual shaming?
Are there any arguments from those in favor of supplying weapons to Ukraine that isn’t some kind of sexual shaming?
“Genocide is bad and should be resisted”, but I understand Trump voters aren’t a fan of that idea.
As a Mexican, it’s always “fun” to read this American comic strips.
Remember that the original Canadian intent of the UN Peacekeepers was that they would forcibly create and enforce peace.
It was the USSR and the USA that objected to the concept.
Similarly if most countries have a mutual defence pact, no one country will be able to invade another without being at war with literally the whole world.
I’m afraid that mutual defense isn’t as iron clad as you think. If Article 5 of NATO ever gets triggered you’ll get a masterclass on weaseling out of obligations. It’s ironic because Ukraine may already be receiving the kind of support a full NATO member is entitled to.
Article 5 was triggered by 9/11 and is the reason everyone followed America into Afghanistan
Red-painted fascists just can’t help themselves. War is Completely Justified Resistance And Blowback until someone actually fights back, at which point it’s Pointlessly Extending The Conflict
I know it’s not relevant but it’s funny (and sad) how you can replace the two flags with Israel and Palestine and it still works.
And its not MAGAts and tankies backing it but, neolibs and centrist conservatives (with the MAGAts as well).
