Who’s the cheap one in this equation?
… the customer who is paying the owner of the restaurant for the food AND is obligated by social convention to pay extra to the waiter who is underpaid.
or
… the restaurant owner who doesn’t mind living in a world where we have normalized underpaying restaurant workers to the point where we pass down that responsibility to the customer who is already paying for the food.
Pay your workers a proper wage and get rid of the idea of tipping.
Don’t like tipping? Protest the policies by not going to restaurants, dont shove it on the workers who are stuck in the system.
The owner is 100% happy you came to pay him and not the waiter he didnt wanna pay anyway.
How does this form of protest translate into a change of the tipping system?
Yeah this protest only works if there are also another set of restaurants that specifically tell you not to tip that you can give business to. I have been to some but they are very rare where I live.
Or just don’t go to restaurants. There are other ways of getting food.
Forcing everyone to live the way you want to live is such a cretin way of thinking lmfao
Blocked lmfao.
Enjoy your echo chamber, dumbass.
At this point youre just being disingenuous. There’s a thousand comments in this thread answering that question, and explaining why stiffing the workers doesn’t really affect the owners, or incentivise them to change anything.
If no one is going there and they don’t know why, and they’re losing money because they’re not getting enough business, they’re not going to decide the solution is to start paying their waiters more. That will just cause them to close down sooner.
Also, just as they don’t know why people stopped going there unless every single one calls them and makes it clear it’s due to tipping/wages, the people protesting aren’t going to know even if they do start paying the waiters more.
Almost every waiter I’ve ever spoken to also prefers tipping because they make more than if they were being paid more, because the business isn’t going to pay them as high as they were making in tips (on average).
The only way they even could, is if they raised the price of everything by 25%. As much as people say they’d be fine with that, such high prices would drive some number of people away. There’s also the issue that if the business owner realised people would pay that much higher, they’d inevitably keep some for themselves and only somewhat increase server wages.
This isn’t to say that I think avoiding tipping is the way to fix it either, just that I don’t think it’s as clear cut as just avoiding the business.
Honestly, in these debates more often than not I find that the waiters don’t want tipping culture changed either. A lot (not all, I understand) of waiters make bank on tips and then don’t accurately report them as income so it’s not even taxed correctly. They don’t want that to change.
I don’t give a shit what the waiter wants honestly, I shouldn’t have to pay the owner and the worker separately
Fuck that, there’s federal mandated minimum wage if waiters don’t make enough through tips. You’re a misinformation spreading lunatic. Probably right wing too.
Tipping is fine, but as in “keep the change”, not “we need to change this tipping culture”
I have no problem with tipping, I have a problem with expected tipping.
Waiters should be paid properly and tips should not be expected or even mentioned. If I get exceptional service, I may want to leave a tip. There should be an optional tip section when paying the bill, but no separate screen or list of expected tips (or even percentage calculations) anywhere at all.
The owner is evil, but anyone who doesn’t tip a waiter that earns too little to be able to afford to live is an asshole.
As someone who works in the service industry, this is the argument that I see all the time. “We aren’t going to subsidize your wage because your owner is an asshole.” Weird, you have no problem being a patron of his establishment. Do you think that your refusal to tip somehow hurts him? Because it doesn’t. It only hurts the staff. My argument always has and always will be that we increase the cost of menu items by 18% and then split that additional 18% with the staff. However, that idea always falls flat with the owner because, “We’ll be the most expensive restaurant in town. No one will come here.” Which is a valid concern. And so, we are at an impasse. He can’t afford to pay me what I’m worth, and he can’t increase the cost of the menu or he’ll outprice his customers, and I can’t quit because it’s not better at any other restaurant. In the end, in any direction, the customer is going to pay more, either as a tip, or just for the cost of the food, or they’ll pay with worse service because the experienced staff can’t afford to work there anymore. Refusing to tip isn’t a protest, it’s just being cheap and making yourself feel better about it. If tipping went away, prices would have to increase, and either way, the buck stops with the consumer. Want to eat cheaper? Cook at home. I’m sure you’ll be just as good as any of your favorite restaurants with their specialized equipment and cooks with a decade of experience.
I hope all you downvoters have something of value to contribute… Oh, no, you’re just downvoting to show your solidarity with the rest of the cheap-os? Ok, enjoy your meal.
So… If i read this correctly… The net difference is zero? Except when I’m being an asshole and I dont tip.
So in the end, this boils down to offering the option of being an asshole to your customers.
As an european I always find this discussion weird. And when visiting stateside I never really can “gauge” what I should tip. Am i in a joint which underpays the server? Is (s)he fine? Is 10% enough? More? Should i just make it whole? I just never know. I sometimes even have resorted to just bluntly ask the server or a patron what is customary. (my weird accent helps getting an honest answer)
It’s quite honestly a shit fest. There is an amount on the billl… But that isnt the real amount, except when you’re an asshole. And if you over tip you’re still an asshole, just a stupid one, and if you’re undertip you’re also an asshole.
Come to think about it: it really boils down to which kind of asshole do you want to be.
It’s a VAT, but it’s a choose your own VAT, and it’s based on what the service is worth to you. The customary amount is 20%, but a lot of people go between 15% and 20%, with my average take home being around 13% because of the people that don’t tip. So, choose your VAT. In the end, when adjusted for the cost of living, eating out in the EU is about the same as eating out in the US and adding a tip. The tip is just already included in the meal cost. If we could all agree to do that in the US, then it would be fine, but we can’t, so it isn’t done. It’s part of the establishment at this point, and change is something hard to sort out across 330 Million people all at once.
Only thing that stands out to me is the percentages you’ve listed. I was always taught (and most of my peers seem to have been as well) that the normal tip for average service was 15%. Poor service (that is in the waiter’s control) gets 10%, and good/great is 18-22% (but usually 20%).
I was born in the early 90s if it makes a difference.
It used to be that way, but now standard is 20%.
I was also taught that egregious service (like bigoted remarks from the waitstaff or getting told to go fuck yourself) gets 1¢ to assure you aren’t just someone who doesn’t tip
Here’s the equation. Restaurants keep food costs low by paying servers next to nothing. If they paid them what they deserve, the cost of your meal would increase.
So by not tipping, you are benefiting from the low cost of food while screwing over the person that has no control over the situation. YTA
If you don’t want to tip, don’t go to a restaurant that has servers.
Now, other places that actually pay a living wage and also have a tip button (ie concession stands at a sporting event) can get fucked.
Are you suggesting that food prices will go up by more than the cost of the tip tacked on?
Because if not it’s really just more honest pricing, and the same (or reduced) impact on customers, but without having to do math or having the option of being a leech.
If tipping ended and restaurants paid their servers, food prices would go up. That is undeniable.
You are eating at a discount with the expectation that you will pay the owner’s employee for them. Yes, it is unfair and sucks but the one making out like a bandit here is the owner.
So, not tipping is your way of benefiting personally on a discounted meal AND STILL giving the owner money. And the only one you have punished in your equation is a server (the leech???) who is generally living off that tip day to day.
So if you want to make an impact, quit going to restaurants that have tipping as an expectation! That’s it! Otherwise you are just encouraging the owner to keep the status quo!
It’s not a discount if you are expected to pay more to add a tip.
But dude, quit changing the subject, I’m not talking about people not tipping within the current system, never have been, and neither was the person you originally replied to. I’ve worked tipped positions, so I very much understand how they work.
So again, are you suggesting that if we do away with tipping, costs of food would increase by MORE than the present amount of a tip that gets tacked on? Because that’s the only way prices for the end consumer actually meaningfully raise. Most likely they will actually go down overall. Because again you have to pay the tip too.
You are really bad at reading comprehension btw. That, or you are a piss-poor troll and intentionally misrepresenting literally everything… the option to be a leech is the customer, who in the present system can skip the tip. Like a leech.
Also, there aren’t any restaurants around me that scrapped tipping, not a single fucking one within at least an hour of where I live, so your suggestion is impossible for me and very privileged.
Except that I’m fine if the cost of my meal increases if they paid their servers what they deserve.
Same here. I’m just saying don’t protest tipping by not tipping. You’re screwing the wrong person.
Honestly if you think about it. The cost of your meal going up and the cost of tipping are not different in their end result for the consumer.
The employee still gets the short end because people won’t always tip. Or even show up.
The owner gets the long (?) end because they don’t have to pay their workers a higher wage (very bad if it’s a slow day) and the customers who otherwise wouldn’t have eaten there if the prices were high will still eat there and not tip.
So it really doesn’t effect the consumer at all but it does effect the employee quite a bit for sure.
I don’t tip as well. But I live in a civilised country where everyone gets at least a tolerable minimum wage. No one is paying me extra money just for doing my job. So I won’t either. If they want more, they need to talk to their employer. It’s not my responsibility.
Would I live in the United States of Idiots though, where a severe lack of ethical economic behaviour is observable, I indeed would tip the waiters, as that’s sadly their financial lifeline.
Replace waiter with “CEO” and you begin to understand why socialists believe what they do
banger of a comment, you deserve some sort of compensation for this contribution
They missed a step. "Waiter is paid below the already sad minimum wage because tips are somehow factored into their paycheck. "
Also don’t forget the folks working in the back of the house. Tip if you’re able, despite our shitty system.
Tipping is bullshit. Restaurants should pay their workers properly. But I’m not gonna punish the server for that. She has zero control over that.
If I can’t afford to tip then I just don’t go to the restaurant. People would prefer to make up excuses for why they don’t wanna tip and how that doesn’t make them an asshole while taking huge huffs of their own farts. If you don’t like the tipping culture just go to a fast food restaurant or make your own food. Why is everybody such whiney bitches about everything?
So you hate the tipping culture but also hate people who want it abolished. That’s just beyond stupid.
Like not tipping is going to abolish anything. You walk in, pay the owner and leave the worker hanging. Why would the owner care?
It’s not like all the waiters can stay home waiting for something to change, people gotta live. Stop going to restaurants if you don’t want to tip
To be fair, that’s not the actual alternative for the waiter. The waiter either accepts their income as it is with some people not providing a tip, or they can opt for other employment like the rest of the workforce that isn’t tipped. They don’t have to sit at home waiting for things to change like helpless puppies.
I’m in California though so we don’t have any of that wage fuckery where they can be paid less than minimum wage if tips make up a significant portion of their income. It’s $17.55 hour minimum plus tips where I’m at.
I’d really rather see tipping outlawed along with all other obscured fees and just pay what you need to pay to have waiters and charge what you need to charge to have a business transparently printed on the menu.
Ahh yes other employment! How come nobody ever thought of that… Just get another job of course. Taxi driver don’t like their wage? Why dont they change jobs. Improper ppe? Just quit. Minimum wage at mcdonalds not livable? Change jobs bro. Bad / dangerous working conditions? You know it… Change jobs! Why do we even bother with oversight like OSHA when all construction workers need is to change jobs when things arent properly done. Contractors will figure it out eventually! California should do away with their pesky wage rules,“to be fair” they aren’t necessary, workers won’t be sitting at home waiting for it.
It’s so ridiculous of an answer ill go back to arguing with those who think they shouldn’t tip. We’d all prefer to see it outlawed.
It boggles the mind how someone can dismiss the legislation that enables the exact scenario the person they replied to described. Yes, the best solution is to have a reasonable minimum wage that isn’t modified by tips. Then you don’t have to leave your job, because they have to follow the law.
…or did you not bother reading past the first sentence?
because they have to follow the law.
lol I admire your idealism.
Why do you assume the waiter is a she?
This place is just as toxic as reddit lol, it was a valid question.
Edit: and before people get confused by my username, I haven’t been back to reddit since the day RIF stopped working.
It’s not certain places online that are toxic. It’s the internet at large.
Id be amazed if a single commenter in this whole thread has worked in hospitality in any capacity, let alone waiting tables.
Most of these comments make me wonder if the poster has ever even once had a good night out at a nice restaurant.
Disclaimer: I live in a country without a serious tipping culture. But still…
“as a man who has definitely worked food service, THANK YOU for speaking out against individuals tipping me. me personally i hate getting tips! and it REALLY shows my boss what’s what, any day now he’s going to pay me a living wage, you sure are showing him!” —my impression of every individual downvoting you
Fully agree with this but the problem is that restaurant owners pay their staff shit
Give proper wages to servers and the tipping can be history
MA had a ballot initiative that would have gradually brought the minimum tipped wage in line with the state’s minimum wage over the next 5 years or something.
Restaurants posted signs at their door to vote NO and that 90 percent of tipped workers opposed the bill.
A bartender I know told me that I should vote no because if it passed then restaurants would have to reduce headcount and servers who were bad at their jobs would get paid just as well as servers that offer good service.
So it seems like the restaurants just threatened people with losing their jobs and so they voted NO and convinced others to do the same.
The measure didn’t pass.
servers who were bad at their jobs would get paid just as well as servers that offer good service.
Black servers would be paid as well as white servers, servers whose chefs fucked up would be paid as well as lucky servers, mice would chase cats and the world would turn inside out!
yes and if you think this comment is off base, question your privelage and motives because you are empirically incorrect!
This study examined the effects of server race, customer race, and their interaction on restaurant tips while statistically controlling for customers’ perceptions of service quality and other variables. The findings indicate that consumers of both races discriminated against Black service providers by tipping them less than White service providers. Journal of Applied Psychology 2008
If you live in a place where food service workers are underpaid and you don’t tip, you’re an asshole. This is not a morally defensible stance unless there is a system to protect those workers already in place.
While I’m totally for the workers being paid great, it’s not really MY job to do so (unless i own the restaurant I’m eating at. And at those the waiters are paid way above average and don’t need tips). Here we tip for excellent service, not the bare minimum to get my food on the table.
If you tip to pay salaries, YOU are the actual asshole that keeps a system alive that is the absolute dogshit in dystopian shitholes with no worker-rights like the US.
How does withholding a tip end the current system?
Stop going to such places. I don’t go there (because we don’t have that silly system). Why tip at all? Do u tip the cashier at the supermarket? Your IT-guy? Your mechanic? Your docs? The cops?
But for the sake of the argument: if noone would tip, noone would work as a waiter anymore and employers would have to pay decent salaries. You know, like everyone civilized would do. Instead you support a disgusting asshole employee by paying the staffs salary AND food. What’s next? No salary at all and you should double-tip for rent too? It seems to work. Why not.
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We don’t tip workers in those other fields you mentioned because they make a livable wage. Food service workers, particularly servers, often make less than minimum wage.
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I’m glad wherever you live pays their wait staff a livable wage. If that happened in the US, tipping wouldn’t be the way it is now. Unfortunately the system has to change first. Until it does, if a customer patronizes a restaurant, they should tip. If someone can’t afford to tip, they should stay home.
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The “invisible hand of the market” isn’t going to solve this issue. A change in labor law will. We either need state or federal laws to protect food service workers. Then employers will be forced to pay their staff better and tipping won’t be so compulsory.
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We could probably argue about “living wage” of a supermarket cashier. Here they all, at least, make minimum wage. So tipping cashiers should be equally fine as tipping waiters.
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Yes, the system is bad. Not the customer that don’t wanna tip. If 100% would not tip, the system HAS to change as noone would work as a waiter anymore. Doesn’t happen, so no change will ever happen. Except maybe paying them even less coz the customers compensate it willingly. Not ideal too, yes. Hence i would stop eating outside if i would live in such a system.
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Yes. Sure. But obviously it works great, so where’s the need for change? People still wanna work waiting and people still tip. And considering you guys vote billionaires for your representative, it’s all working as intended. There’s even wiggle-room to milk you for even more… But i would hope for u guys that there ever will be some good change.
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You’re right. I should just not go there at all, watch the business collapse, and see them beg for jobs at the next shitty restaurant. That’s the better option apparently?
yes. you accidentally hit on the decent thing to do. if you can’t afford tipping in the context of a system that forces individuals to rely on it, go buy groceries.
Fuck anon.
Edit: and fuck your downvotes. If you’re not willing to make food yourself then tip your servers.
If you believe no tipping will leave waiters to starve with no money, that’s not true. The very reason they are so severely underpaid is that restaurants know they’ll get their income from tips.
The less tips there are, the more your employer will have to pay you - in a form of salary that is way more predictable and reliable than tips.
Customers, on their end, will know price in the menu is final, and they won’t add crazy extra just so that they won’t feel like worst people on Earth.
In my country, tips do exist, but you are not expected to leave them by default and it’s totally fine and common not to. The result? Waiters get livable wage and can last a month without ever receiving a single tip (which they actually have, too, from time to time).
In my country
yeah this is how we know it’s okay to ignore the rest of your comment. really rich of you to preach virtue on the actions of alienated individuals under a system far more oppressive and antagonistic than your own. really makes a powerful argument.
Doesn’t get paid properly to deliver a service you’re relying on.
Tipping culture is stupid, but that doesn’t mean you get to fuck over workers by refusing the tips they rely on. If you want to fight that fight, take it up with the business or your legislator, ya cheap asshole.
Ayup. I live in a non-tipping country, but in the US, well…
- the farmer doesn’t deal with the customer
- the logistics company doesn’t deal with the customer
- the inspector doesn’t deal with the customer
- the manager doesn’t deal with the customer
- the cook doesn’t deal with the customer
It’s an arsehole tax
If you don’t think restaurant managers deal with customers than all I can say is I’m so happy for you for never having to work in that industry lol. All of the other people you named also have customers they deal with except maybe the cook. Logistics company is the farmer’s customer, restaurant owner is logistics company’s customer, etc. All of said customers can also be arseholes.
Managers mostly placate and throw their waitstaff under the bus.
And no, logistics companies do not deal with the restaurant patron, the fuck are you on
I didn’t say restaurant patron. Usually there is an employee or even the owner (what i said in my previous reply - not patron) of a restaurant that has to order and receive ingredients and other equipment to run the business. Suppliers also have employees that negotiate and coordinate deliveries with these restaurant staff. In this specific situation, the restaurant managers/owners are the customers of their suppliers.
And i wasn’t talking about logistics customers. I was very clearly talking about the restaurant customer, whom the waiter deals with.
So why should only restaurant customers tip? Why should only waiters expect tips?
Jesus christ dude, let it go.
You know why tipping is a thing in the US, and as I clearly stated, I don’t live in a tipping country
So you’re saying the restaurant owners should give the suppliers a good tip if they’re polite and efficient? Nuance is hard
Not saying they should more than I’m asking why they shouldn’t
Because being polite and accommodating to people who are being shitty to you isn’t important for those jobs.
Restaurant owners everywhere would be so happy to know you think the customers are the ones fucking over the workers
Do you imagine that the people refusing to pay tips aren’t fucking over the workers, or do you believe that because customers are fucking over workers, the restaurant owners can’t be fucking over the workers too?
It doesn’t matter - either take is transparently stupid.
I believe it is on the owners to provide fair wages to workers. When the plumber, electrician, mechanic, sales rep, or whoever else tells you they don’t make a livable wage, you’re going to feel it is your responsibility to tip them too?
If you don’t want to tip people that can’t otherwise make minimum wage, use restaurants that pay minimum wage. You don’t get to steal those workers’ labour because the restaurateurs and legislators have failed them.
Others industries have to pay minimum wage - your contribution isn’t factored into their base requirements for survival. This is a silly comparison. Do I support an increase in minimum wages? Abso-fucking-lutely - but electricians aren’t routinely being paid less than $3/hr.
You recognize that restauratuers and legislators are the ones failing workers, yet you attribute the lost wages to the paying customer. What can we as paying customers do to fail the workers so that you recognize restauratuers and legislators as being responsible for their fair wages?
are you allergic to believing that two things can be true at once
oof another internet user who thinks two things can’t be true at once 💔
“yeah i know i slashed your tires but at least i’m not as bad as the oil and motor lobbies that make it so you’re reliant on your car to fucking commute to work and not starve, you should be grateful next time” — that’s how you sound 🫶
Ya’ll are all wrong. Tipping is to compensate the 2 dollars they make an hour. It’s a shitty system, but that’s the deal. If you don’t want to tip then don’t go eat at a restaurant that supports that system. It’s not some luxury add-on for excellent service (though it can be). It is purely to make up for the extremely low wages. Does anyone remember the rest of the dialog in this scene?
That only applies in shit states that allow that wage fuckery. There are several states where the minimum doesnt change based on whether the job receives tips.
This is one of the problems with the argument online. Too many off us have different realities around them. Where I’m at they get a pretty healthy minimum (~$17/h) + tips.
Being a waiter at a decent restaurant is quite lucrative in my area. I don’t want to change that for the person, after all, the waiter is getting a cut off every check. It’s like a form of profit sharing! However, I’d rather just have the prices on the menu reflect reality and the business handle all the dispersion of pay without me and my feelings getting manipulated for an extra 5% (after the previously established 18% tip standard was deemed too low by people who get tipped that for decades.)
this would be cool info to have. do you think there is a state by state or municipality breakdown that shows the degree to which me not tipping is a burden to the staff? /gen would be slay to have in my bookmarks!
YT things
tipping should be illegal because it leads to underpaid workers. but until tipping becomes illegal, you are a fucking asshole if you don’t tip. you’re not sticking it to the man, you’re just shitting on a minimum wage worker because m-muh principles. grow up or move to a country where they don’t tip
I hate that argument though. “You shouldn’t enjoy things because you should pay more than the advertised, because that’s just how things are”. Change doesn’t happen unless change happens. Basically, if you want tipping culture to change, you actually have to start changing tipping culture.
And you think the best way to do that is by stopping waitresses from being able to feed their kids? Because that’s the only thing that will happen if you don’t tip
Overwhelmingly when polled, waits staff much prefer to keep tipping over a living wage. They make far more from tips. Trust me, me not giving a waitress a tip isn’t the line that keeps he kids from dying of hunger.
You alone won’t, but you would definitely be directly contributing to her being closer to said line
Ultimately, the restaurant industry’s management tier collectively agreeing with wait staff that wait staff doesn’t require a working wage and depending on handouts from customers is a fine solution is the problem.
Quite honestly, that isn’t my problem. I’m there for some food, not to be guilted into running a charity function to make up for greedy management and a staff that prefers this bullshit.
If they had to pay their staff more, prices would be higher. If prices are higher, not as many people can afford to go, resulting in prices going up even more. When waiters can rely on tips instead of just the hourly wage, they are given the chance of getting a really nice tip from someone who is generous, resulting in more money than without the tips. By not tipping, you are relying on the generosity of others to keep the workers you aren’t tipping above the line. If you think they don’t deserve to be tipped, don’t go there, otherwise you’re being a mooch in the society you live in, even if it’s in a minor way.
Sorry, but I pay for the food and if I feel its deserved, the service. Being a mooch would be not paying g for the food.
Do away with tipping and food prices go up by the cost of paying workers a fair wage. To the consumer it ends up being an even trade. Ultimately, the only group getting hurt is the owners.
It works fine in other countries but can’t in the US because…?
