How would you approach persuading a far extreme conservative toward center? What would you set as a realistic goal for a productive discourse? Would it be better attempt to do so in person rather than online?
I live in the Bible Belt so as you can imagine I interact with these types of people on a very regular basis.
I once went on a business trip with one of my [at that time] employees. We got along well although I knew he was very conservative politically and a staunch Trump supporter. I am neither of those things which he knew about me as well. We had a long car ride through the middle of nowhere and we talked for a good chunk of it to pass the time.
Eventually I asked him, “What do you like so much about Donald Trump?” I genuinely wanted to know. He told me. I thought his reasons were bullshit but I did ask and so I had an obligation to at least hear him out. He asked me why I didn’t like Trump. I gave him my reasons. We kind of politely acknowledged one another’s opinion and agreed to disagree. We chatted a little bit more and then he said something that I did not expect. “You know those people who go walking around with guns strapped on them all the time? Those guys are idiots. What kind of moron thinks he’s got to prove something so badly that he goes to the store carrying an AR strapped to his back?”
I was honestly shocked. I didn’t expect him to say that and I agreed with him. We talked a lot longer after that about politics and found that we had plenty of other things we agreed on, and plenty that we didn’t. When we finally got to our destination, I thanked him for answering my questions honestly because I genuinely wanted to understand his perspective. I could tell he appreciated that.
That’s a long way of saying that the only way to deal with extreme conservatives is to go talk to them. Its not always easy but you’ll find that you have more in common with them than you might think. Now, that’s easy for me to say. I’m a straight, white, boot wearing, bearded guy with a southern accent. I pretty much fit right in around here. If you’re a minorty, trans for instance, and you don’t want to go talk to people who think you’re some sort of abomination, I don’t blame you for a second. that’s why those of us who are not as “threatening” need to do a better job of being allies.
There’s a passage in the Bible that says “a house divided against itself cannot stand.” It’s true. A “divide and conquer” strategy is incredibly effective. It’s working very effectively in American politics today. And the only way to bridge the gap is to go find some common ground.
What did he like about Trump?
This is my go-to resource for living with conservatives.
https://www.healthline.com/health/how-to-deal-with-a-narcissist
I’m not joking.
What does it say? Shows a 403 error
100% in person. You’ve got a much harder battle online. As someone else said, exposure is a big piece. Also just challenging some of their beliefs in a Socratic way
Though you really need the ability to stay calm and collected. I once tried to talk with a childhood friend who became a hardcore christian and nationalist in the meantime, and I just couldn’t believe the things I heard.
When I asked him why would the bible be a definitive source of whatever, he said “You can only have one truth, and if you live by the bible you know it to be true, so it is the truth”. There were so many things wrong with that line of thought, my brain received a ddos attack and had to reboot.
Same thing for homosexuals. He, in a very very creepy way I must say, told an entire story of how normal men who are sexual deviants eventually get tired of women because they need to do increasingly more sickening things, and then move on to men. That’s how men become gay.
How the hell do you reply to someone who just completely made up a story and believes in it? When I eventually asked how is the Netherlands not burning to the ground when they are tolerant, he actually said “Not yet”. So, if any Dutch person is reading this, better brace for gay armageddon or something. I just can’t figure out what to say to someone who literally spends 10 mins saying nothing. I eventually stopped interacting with him because I just don’t have the energy (this was just an example, I had dozens of interactions like that with him)Or when a colleague said that the Ukranian civilians were happy when the Russians came to save them. My head temperature increased 10 degrees and I just turned around and left. You really need special skills to talk to people like that, which I sadly lack
Yesterday drag was accosted by someone who insisted, despite being able to read drag’s username, that drag’s name was drag and therefore drag can’t be drag’s pronoun. No amount of logic made a difference. So drag told them to leave drag alone.
I find that they have a lot of mistaken assumptions that are just lies repeated by Fox News. Sometimes they don’t even watch Fox, they’re just surrounded by people that do.
I like to focus on the economic issues, since there is hard math for the economy and I find it’s not productive to argue with someone who is terrified that a trans person might be in the same bathroom as their child. I find these people literally start foaming at the mouth over that stuff and I just don’t have the right math or words to cut through the rabies.
For example. I’ve heard Republican voters say that Republicans are better for the economy and reducing the national debt. Ask them which Republican presidents have left office with a reduced deficit?
Ask them if they know how much it added to the national debt when Reagan, Bush, and Trump passed tax cuts primarily for the rich and corporations.
Let them know that you’re also concerned about the economy and the deficits, and show them a chart of federal spending and ask them whether they want to cut Social Security, Medicare, or defense spending to pay for more tax cuts for the rich and corporations.
Then ask them why DON’T the Republicans cut ANY of those things to pay for their tax cuts? Why do those deficits just get passed on to the next Democrat and blamed on them? How are Republicans going to reduce the deficit when it’s not politically feasible with their base to cut ANY of those three things?
When it comes to immigration, ask them why they think immigrants are trying to get here in the first place. Show them Smedley Butler and talk about the war on drugs and ask them if they think the US is partially to blame for the violence in other countries that people are trying to escape from.
Also, show them the Maddox comic where he depicts immigrants “stealing our jobs”. Ask them who is hiring these illegal immigrants and why? Ask them who the managers and owners of those companies vote for and why those people might have an incentive to preserve the “illegal” status of those employees.
I’ve tried this. They don’t listen; it just goes in one ear and out the other, and that’s assuming you’re on good terms with the person you’re talking to. Otherwise, they just get very angry that you’re attacking their worldview.
The long and short is that these people have been lied to virtually non-stop for the past 40 years, and the first step is depriving them of their disinformation stream. From there, it’s a slow process that could take years, and that process is reset if they go back to listening to lies on Fox News or on Facebook/Twitter.
Molly/ Ecstasy
Here is a story of a white supremacist switching views after taking it.
Here is an article on how mdma can change PTSD by opening up the brain by rewriting. This is obviously for depression and PTSD, but recognize why it works for these other things. It opens up the brain to becoming reactive to different stimuli after having kept the same pathways for so long.
I think of course, community is the best long term answer. Education is hard for adults but having lived narratives around you showing you a better way is FAR more effective than just some facts thrown at them.
These people need to be taken out of their echo chamber and if possible, given a new vision
This is a story about how someone from the Westboro Baptist Church left because of the way that people engaged with her. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVV2Zk88beY
What’s worth noting from this story, people that were hostile in their interactions with her only served to entrench her further in her ideals.
What caused her to change her mind were the people that had “friendly arguments” and made an effort to learn where she was coming from.
She listed out 4 key points when engaging in difficult conversations. I extracted/paraphrased some of what she said below:
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Don’t assume bad intent (assume good or neutral intent instead) - Assuming ill motive almost instantly cuts you off from truly understanding why someone does and believes as they do. We forget that they’re a human being with a lifetime of experience that shaped their mind and we get stuck on that first wave of anger and the conversation has a very hard time ever moving beyond it.
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Ask Questions - Asking questions helps us map the disconnect. We can’t present effective arguments if we don’t understand where the other side is coming from.
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Stay calm - She thought that “[her] rightness justified [her] rudeness”. When things get too hostile during a conversation, tell a joke, recommend a book, change the subject, or excuse yourself from the conversation. The discussion isn’t over, but pause it for a time to let tensions dissapate.
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Make the argument - One side effect of having strong beliefs is that we sometimes assume that the value of our position is, or should be, obvious and self-evident. That we shouldn’t have to defend our positions because they’re so clearly right and good. If it were that simple, we would all see things the same way.
You can’t expect others to spontaneously change their minds. If we want change, we have to make the case for it.
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Write a computer virus specifiy for TVs. Target the OS used by the cheapest ones.
The only thing the virus does is block Fox News on cable / app.If you watch The Brainwashing of My Dad, this is basically what worked. The documentary maker’s parents moved to a new house and they deliberately didn’t connect Fox News, and then blocked a few web sites. A short while later their dad was back to being a jovial, friendly person again.
Force them to interact with queers and minorities. Treating them the same as they treat us.
The real “danger” of college isn’t liberal professors. It’s spending time with people who have different backgrounds, life experiences, and world views. Religious schools, along with fraternities and sororities, do their best to encourage conformity. Avoid them.
Dad: I had a really neat experience at work today!
Me: Yeah?
Dad: S (Indian) came into work with food from home and he brought me some!
Me: Did you like it?
Dad: Yeah it was good, he was really great. Why can’t they all be like that?
Me: Who’s they?
Dad: All those people from other countries!
Me: Do you meet a lot of people from other countries?
Dad: Well, no, but you hear a lot about them
Me: From where?
Dad: You now, places, other people, tv.
Me: They’re not really any different than we are, there are open and friendly people and closed and private people. Some want to make friends and be nice, some just want to get along and work.
Dad: That’s not what I hear.
Me: Maybe what you hear is wrong. You know, stories told my people who stand to profit from keeps us angry at each other?
Dad: Bah, you can’t make money from that.
Me: …
Haha it’s true though, most people are just, you know… People. I haven’t been everywhere, but I’ve been to a few countries other than my own and all the differences are negligible except maybe not understanding the language. You see just as many differences in culture traveling to other states within the US; but a lot of these ignorant people haven’t even done that.
It’s also kinda true that food brings different cultures together like no other. How can you hate people who make hella good food?!
There was a black blues singer years ago that lived in Klan country.
He made friends with klansman and got them slowly over the years to denounce and hand in their robes. One of the people he convinced was actually a grand wizard IIRC.
There are a lot of people out there that will listen to a radio show where someone is saying that minorities in a given town are eating everyone’s pets and they’ll take that as gospel.
If you lead them by the hand introduce them to a family that’s willing to help change their mind have them watch the food be cooked and break bread their initial response is going to be this is a good family, But it’s not going to make them immediately go maybe most families are good. The programming’s very hard to overcome. Generally, prejudice does not survive repeated positive contacts with the targets.
The brother of a long-term friend of mine got fired from a Union State job by being racist. Almost the entire staff was minority. His view was that the entire race was lazy because his staff of Union minority workers for a state job or putting in the minimum effort required. Meanwhile the state is paying the minimum amount they can offering workers near immunity for their actions. Even before you account for the union, You’re not going to end up with a wonder team providing free overtime.
It’s likely with his experience he will never be deprogrammed. Of course his entire life has been a series of very bad decisions, most of which he blames on everyone else.
And exposure is not always enough. There are plenty of 100% racist inner city police officers that are exposed to minorities all the time. It’s like you almost have to drag a racist kicking and screaming to challenge their own propaganda worldview.
Just traveling between the different megaregions in the US often feels like traveling internationally, but without the hassle of passports and borders. They speak the same language and literally inhabit the same country, but everything just feels different. I can’t quite place it.
Uh no, sorry. America is the same. I’ve lived in the midwest, I’ve lived on the coasts, I’ve gone to 45 of the states. I’ve traveled to multiple continents now too. America is America, long live the stripmall, the large trucks, and the fast food. There are minor differences area to area, but if you have not traveled actually internationally yourself, you are missing out on actual massive culture differences. Even just the UK or France, which are fairly similar will show you how vastly different places can be.
There are so many other ways to live that I don’t even know how to describe to you if you haven’t gone yourself. Honestly I don’t know how. Go see how other people live, it will quite literally open your eyes. America definitely has a culture from sea to shining sea, and it’s very different from the rest of the world.
I understand what you’re trying to say, that different regions are different, and I’ll give you that there are minor differences, but once you go out and actually experience truly different cultures you’ll realize how similar we all are here.
I agree 100%.
Honestly it can start small, just be somewhere where harmless friendly interactions can happen. Walking around, at the store, just doing mundane things.
Then more social at bars, or schools, or even churches if that’s their vibe.
I’ve talked here before about how delusions self-reinforce by:
- contextualizing everything (even new information that at face value seems contradictory) as part of the delusional belief system.
- driving the person away from non-delusional social supports through repeated conflicts.
So the solution is to get them out of the cult bubble and into diverse reality based interests / hobbies that connect them with people who don’t have those beliefs. You specifically want plenty of variety to increase the odds that they will both:
- find one they like enough to pay attention to outside of the context of the delusional belief system
- find people that are willing to look past the toxicity long enough for them to reintegrate.
I’d say it depends on what kind of conservative - bigot, capitalist, or both.
Deprogramming a bigot can be done by getting them to interact with and make friends with minorities. On paper this doesn’t sound hard, but bigots become that way in the first place because they don’t have a healthy and diverse social circle, and you may not be able to just give them one. Hell, depending on how bigoted they are, it may not be responsible or even safe to make anyone else have to deal with interacting with them.
Deprogramming a capitalist has to be done very carefully, but I think for many people there is a lot of common ground that can be reached. I think most people feel the same frustrations that we do, but they’ve been too indoctrinated by the legacy of McCarthyism to recognize that capitalism is the underlying cause of most of what’s wrong with the world today. So you have to be slow and subtle in coaxing them towards this, if you use the words ‘capitalism’, ‘socialism’, or ‘communism’, they will just shut down and stop listening.
I’ll never forget when my conservative grandmother watched the primary debates back in 2016 and told me she actually thought Bernie made a lot of good points. And then she went on to vote for Trump in November. And I get why! The one thing Bernie and Trump have in common is that they tell people “I know you’re mad at the world today, I’m mad too, and I’m going to fix it instead of leaving this status quo where it is.” Even if they’re on opposite sides of what they want to do about it, they agree that the world sucks, and that’s really all that a lot of people need to hear. Start there, and then guide them towards why the world is screwed up and how exactly we fix it.
I think the best argument you can make is to talk about how the rise of automation is going to shape the future. We are moving towards a world where there will be far fewer jobs that need humans than there are humans who need jobs. A world where robots are gonna do all the work for us ought to be a utopia, leaving us free to enjoy life and follow our passions. But capitalism relies on the assertion that everyone must work for a living or else they starve and die - what happens when there aren’t enough jobs to go around? The only way we can solve this is to rethink this premise of capitalism, that everyone must work or die. Automation can only be a utopia in a post-capitalist world, under capitalism it will become a dystopia.
Of course, this only works for people who are not rich enough to support capitalism for entirely self-serving reasons. If you’re talking to someone whose job is likely to be automated away in the future, those are the people you have the best chance of reaching. If you’re talking to someone who is going to own all the robots, hell they probably know and don’t care.
Nor capitalism or biggotry are in any shape or form exclusive to conservatism.
Don’t hurt them too hard…
do you think that you are contributing anything useful to the conversation here
You can’t go wrong just asking questions.
Socrates agrees
Electroshock. Preferably via neural implant that registers activity in whatever part of the brain lights up when they’re being assholes and then lighting up their pain centers like it’s the National Lampoon’s Christmas Vacation.
Yay torture!
Because of the heavy brainwashing they’ve experienced, their brains will need to first be removed and dried out before they can be reset.
After re-assembly, try a car battery to restart them by using secure clamp-style connections on both ass cheeks. A conservative’s back fat is marbled all the way up through their neck rolls and into their fascinating little brains, so they should start right up. Hope that helps.
This is way too much work. Just use a qtip and hold down the reset button in their left ear for ten seconds. That should factory reset the brain.
Instructions unclear, deactivated universal translator.
You can’t use logic, facts, or reason to get someone to change their mind when they didn’t use them to form their opinion in the first place so … baseball bat?
