Daily reminder:
Jill disappears on November 6th and reappears 3 years and 10 months later. Like clockwork.
Jill disappears on November 6th and reappears 3 years and 10 months later
Good money in it. Russian rubles too.
Do you think she started out earnest and got co-opted?
Has she been a willing accomplice since day one?To sit at a fancy gala dinner with the very definition of what the hard right salivates to be, then to declare that both parties are the same… that is something… that takes some fucking chutzpah.
The hard right doesn’t want to be like Russia, they don’t want America involved in any country really.
This picture is also near meaningless, but feel free to debate that.
The Green Party was never to be taken seriously by anyone that knows better. It’s always been a spoiler party. This is evident in the fact that seemingly none of the Green Party candidates do jack shit three years out of every four. And when the election cycle comes. They just projectile-shit left and right depending on who’s paying.
Not to mention the significant Russian ties for the Green Party and the clear spoiler effect.
Not to be taken seriously as having a chance to win is different than representing the views of a sub-group of Americans accurately.
We see plenty of sports teams lose year after year and don’t ask why people are still fans, do we? Their values haven’t changed just because their side loses, they still believe that’s the right team to back.
While third party votes wont make a third party candidate win the presidency, it absolutely has an effect on public opinion and discussion, evidenced by how many of these stories are coming out each day bashing third party voters.
It seems absurd to me that democrats think third party voters will respond to attacks on their character, when the reason they wont vote democrat is because of the character democrats display.
I don’t know how many sports teams that are taking Russian money and exist to essential fuck over the entire sport that would continue to have fans.
Oh… and politics isn’t a fucking sport.
Turns out its not hard to hide the source of money, and politicians need money to run campaigns. The democrats and republicans both have their fair share of illicit donations, that’s entirely legal in America. I don’t really see your point? They all shouldn’t do it.
Also, you seem to think the only third party is the green party, which is interesting.
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Both agree on the point and the proper meme format
STAR vote to make parties irrelevant except at the coalition building level!
Finally, yes! Anyone who wants to vote for a third party should instead spend their time and effort fighting for a different voting system (ranked choice, star, etc) that could mathematically allow a third party to actually succeed.
In some perspectives, fighting for third parties does fight for a different voting system.
“Fighting for” is leaving a lot up for interpretation here.
As a firm believer in the need for a strong labor party to struggle for the rights of working people as an absolute bare minimum to advancing the struggle for human rights, individual freedom and working class power (while it isn’t by default a guarantee for any of those things as it would require the participation of growing masses to even begin to take these problems on,) this party doesn’t exist in this election. Principles don’t count for shit, only power matters. Before engaging in any safe state strategies, better make sure your math is impeccable since the Republicans can lose the popular vote and still win the election. We can build power for the future, but keep Trump out for now.
If the democrats lose because of people voting for the party that best represents them, then the democrats should maybe consider representing all groups of people in good faith.
Blaming the third party voters is a good way to shame them into agreeing with you in some cases, but in others it has the opposite effect.
I’m not trying to shame anyone for their vote and I cant blame anyone for not feeling represented by the Democrats. If the Greens are actually the party that represents you, go wild. But I doubt it. But voting for Democrats is unlikely to be voting for your interests either.
Everyone has different priorities, that’s the nature of political difference. But if we are going to be strictly rational, then its important not to vote against our interests either. This isn’t an appeal for lesser evilism, this is an appeal to do what we need to do in November to protect our communities and neighbors from becoming victims of even more state violence than they are under Democrats. But leading up to that day, and on every other day after we build for power. Democratic, organized, working class, educational party work that empowers instead of alienates. Some people have already begun this work but more people need to get involved, and not out of moral imperative, but out of hope and proof that a new way is possible and inevitable if we can actually create such a party.
But the fact is it hasn’t been built, we have become comfortable in our exploitation and alienation, and frankly political confusion. A Trump presidency is too dangerous, to deny that he and his creepy cadre fully intend to deliver mass suffering on millions is misguided; and to accept it but do nothing to prevent it is egotistical. If you want to live by your principles we have to create the orgs that will make it possible, we have to shake the system to its foundations, and not just when there is a genocide or a murder of an unarmed black man by cops; but every day. so that when it’s time to take to the streets we can show out in greater numbers and organization than ever before, and really scare the ruling class, not to gain concessions but to make it clear that their days are numbered as a class.
This can’t be achieved with voting by any possible measure. There is no way to vote that will begin to achieve this. All we can do is slow the bleeding a little longer to create the conditions where we can actually do this work together. So vote against the petty tyrant, vote for the party that we would prefer to resist; that still gives at least lip service to democracy rather than abolishing it in every way they can. And understand that the work hasn’t even begun to ensure our future.
What is wrong with campaigning or supporting the party that represents you best, and then voting differently when you are in the booth? The point is the pressure. To some, their third party vote only matters as a point of dissent, it won’t affect anything. In my state I don’t feel comfortable placing a protest vote for the presidential race, but also Democrats tend to represent me relatively well as I was born on the privileged side of things, most of the bad things that have happened to me were actually my fault. If any of that calculus changes though, who knows, I might not even be comfortable voting democrat knowing it could lose my state to republicans.
Their is logic behind a protest vote for president though, for some perspectives. To some, the winning party never adapts or changes, its the losing party. If you want democrats to reform, then for some the only way to do that is to take your vote from them. If the democrats really think the republicans are the end of democracy, then show us by committing to what the people want and need. In this perspective, the democrats villianize the republicans so that there is a bigger bad casting a shadow they can hide in. For a group of people that find it almost as hard to trust democrats as republicans, it can complicate things.
Its hard, like I said I come from privilege, and have no experience with the democrats personally screwing me over, but plenty of others do, and I can’t discount that perspective. I chose to vote democrat nationally, and third party locally, although I did not choose either the green or libertarian parties.
I appreciate the logic behind a protest vote, and I can sympathize with the circumstances that furnish such a vote. But I believe my logic is pretty sound, acknowledges the very real problems obvious to people who may be choosing to make such a vote, and hopefully makes an alternative case based on similar experiences and human needs to perhaps vote differently. I won’t make a moral judgement against people for this, I have a fairly complicated system of ethics. I know people with high levels of political education who I often agree with, but who are advocating for protest vote, safe state strategy, and the like. All I can do is make a case that maybe people haven’t heard before. The votes will be what they are, for a maintenance of a sad ineffectual status quo that doesn’t relate to people, or for much much worse. That’s how I see it, bit I don’t believe it is right to browbeat others into seeing my views, perpetuating a situation that only benefits the Democrats. But there is a real world with real people and real consequences. If people vote different than I’d like but doing so helps them to reckon with reality as it exists and not as it presents itself to us, then that is itself a bit of a victory as well.
I don’t understand why the logic doesn’t apply both ways though. If you shouldnt vote third party in contested states, then you should in ones that aren’t. I think that would say a lot if most democrats voted third party in those situations. I could get behind it if it were applied both ways, and it would be a great way to have a third party actually get enough popular vote to make a difference.
I’m very aware of the argument behind a safe state strategy, like I said I know a lot of people capable of sophisticated political analysis who are making that decision.
What I said was that if you are planning on making a “safe state” type calculation, and advocate for such a strategy then you had better know for sure your state is safe, and the states of the people where you might advocate for that strategy are also safe. I don’t think a protest vote is much of a protest, but I also know that the uncommitted movement which had made no small impact on the electorate in bringing awareness to this unconscionable genocide inflicted on innocent people, underwritten by both political parties, uncommitted has been advocating for voting third party. I think this is a miscalculation and false equivocation, but that movement has done good work and brought people into grassroots political engagement who were not engaged before. For them, voting is a tactic, but their strategy is to raise awareness of the Palestinian genocide, in which they have been successful. There are people who are very engaged with political action who weren’t before, and they are voting with their principles.
But uncommitted is not a political party that can defend those principles. I want a workers party. And I want Trump to lose. I also don’t think the Greens are a way to get that party, regardless of their electoral strategy. Those are my priorities. If they differ from others I can understand that. But I don’t have to agree with it and I certainly aren’t required to advocate for it. All I can do is present the situation as I see it and speak truth to uncertainty. I have a fair amount of certainty even with all of the hedging I’m doing for subjective opinion and difference of priorities. We won’t know until the votes are cast and counted, and apparently once the incoming presidency has successfully transferred power against the (likely more sophisticated than 2000) attempts to subvert the results of that election.
All I can do is speak to the different factors as I understand them and present a coherent argument for action based on coherent logic. I don’t think I contradicted myself, I think I addressed your concern in my very first post. Buy if I have contradicted myself then I’m willing to explore that, as contradiction is the beginning of dialectical inquiry.
You didn’t contradict yourself, I was asking for clarification because I didn’t understand you fully.
I don’t really think we are all that far about on the substance of this, and we could probably debate the nuance for ages for no gain, so I won’t.
The main thing I think is important is that people don’t fall into the trap of thinking there is only one broad perspective that should be valid for everyone, which I don’t think you are doing.
As an aside, do you have any sources I could read about the 2000 transfer of power? I was so young then, and growing up people never posited it as a coordinated attempt to subvert the election. I have heard a bit about it in the past years but had trouble finding information on what had happened.
That sounds too much like work and not enough like bitching.
Makes me wish we had some serious third parties in this country, and not two grifting perennial presidential-election also-rans
The lack of viable ones is less a result of effort on their part or desire for them among the electorate, and more to do with the nature of our voting system. Its hard to develop a viable third party when the system one is operating in mathematically guarantees that only two parties can be seriously competitive with eachother in nationally significant elections, and those parties are already established. They can be competitive in local elections that the larger ones dont put as much effort into, but the only times theyve ever gotten to the presidency have been the couple times when one of the two major parties basically collapses and gets replaced with a different one.
They can be competitive in local elections that the larger ones dont put as much effort into,
That’s my point, though. The two biggest third parties in this country aren’t competitive in local elections, because they put even less effort in local elections as the two major parties do. They make a performative shot at the presidency every four years, and that’s about fucking it. The Libertarians are slightly better (god, what a sentence to gag on) on this than the Greens, but not by much.
There are more than just two third-parties if that’s how you want to refer to them. There were three others you didn’t mention in my state, all different on policy. Third-party doesn’t by default mean green or libertarian.
Bet non of those people vote in local elections.
Can’t, Democrats practice party suppression.
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Just because youre too lazy to pay attention to third parties on non election years does not mean theyre not working.
Please tell me what they’ve been doing for the last 3 years.
Getting people elected to local seats.
Nice, which ones?
This is public information, you could have looked this up yourself at any point in the last 8 years instead of falling for Clinton propaganda. https://www.gpelections.org/greens-in-office/
That’s a pretty negative and aggressive response to someone inviting you show how hard the Green party has been working.
However, that’s a pretty poor showing for 8 years of work. no wonder everyone thinks the Green party does nothing besides run spoiler presidential candidates. You probably to need to find a hobby that doesn’t revolve around falling for Jill Stein propaganda.
Given half of their donations go to defending the right to run for office because the Dems sue every single chance they get in every single election where both a green and a dem theyve done pretty well. Maybe you need to find a hobby that doesn’t revolve around worshipping corporations and conservative cops.
lol sur
They’re the ones saying voting against Harris is the only power they have to change her policies.
Thats an objectively true statement.
Maybe, but it leaves out the other half of the equation, don’t you think?
What’s the last law the greens got passed with their tactics?
What’s the last progressive legislative win from the Dems that is not something Sweden had a better version of in 1976?
The ADA and recent infrastructure act
Half the states don’t follow the ADA and multiple organizations are trying to get consent decrees to force them too. This is after theyve already had to take the ADA to Supreme court once to get states to follow it right. Its a 30 year old law only half the country follows. The ADA is a joke unless your in one of the states that has decided to follow it. There are no punishments for states who don’t.
That was either bi partisan, or a child of Republicans, as it was introduced in 1986 by a bipartisan group, signed into law by hw Bush in 1990, and amended by a Republican Congress and w bush in 2008. There was never a dem push for the law or the amendment, and there really wouldn’t be as by far the majority of Americans with disabilities vote Republican.
I like how you just admitted that your stanning the greens isn’t born out of the dems not being progressive enough but out of having bought the republican line hook line and sinker that dems just bad for whatever reason and having to do more introspection than glomming onto the cool edgy people who swear they’re more progressive than makes your brain hurt too much.
All the political saviness of a midwestern white boomer who doesn’t know jack about their political interest other than that they think the dems are against them because reasons.
You really enjoy making up things in your head to argue against so you can actually win. Greens are the only center left party in the US, and the only third party on enought state ballots to what n the presidency. That’s why Dems have spent over 50 million in lawsuits against them, plus countless millions on the propaganda that informed your opinion. I personally like PSL way more, and would love the 50+ crowd to die off already so we can have a socialist in office again and actually make the country better. But we keep extending the lifespan of those brainwashed fucks, so instead, greens get my vote.
Right now the only way Dems could ever get my vote is steal the green party platform, cut off Israel entirely, and actually start to enact positive change.
False equivalency. This is, in fact, an election year. And pushing a presidential spoiler hack backed by Russia isn’t a great look anyway.
Oh, they’re working, all right — but for who?
The American working class, besides PSL, they the only ones doing so politically.
I wouldn’t worry about it. I’m told that 3rd party voters are too small a bloc to bother trying to earn their votes.
As I understand, it is true that non-voters are already counted out in statistical predictions, so in essence- yes. 3rd party voters while potentially helpful, are irrelevant to the actual numbers counted towards elections.
Please tell that to the people posting 100 memes a day about 3rd parties wrecking the election.
3rd party voters are too small a bloc to carry a candidate, and pandering to that bloc at the expense of alienating moderates is strategically stupid.
It’s like you’re building the tallest tower. In a tight contest, every block helps, and a small block might be the difference between a success and failure if the competition is close enough. But trading a big block to get a smaller block is just plain dumb. There’s no reason to “earn” something that’s mutually exclusive with a more valuable something you already have.
The bourgeoisie politicians will be materially fine win or lose, it’s the prole voters who will materially suffer due to their “strategic” 3rd party vote. It stands no chance of winning, and there’s no mechanism to associate it with specific complaints. 3rd party voting isn’t even effective at the intended goal, it’s just a bad play.
But hey, go ahead. FA, FO.
Math is hard, though, can’t they just treat voting like a fun self-indulgence and not something that affects peoples’ lives?
The dems are FA and will FO. Opposing genocide is not “pandering”.
Again, the Democratic politicians will be just fine if they lose, the rest of us won’t.
Plenty of people aren’t fine now, and the democrats don’t care. Elections are won by politicians and campaigning. You can be mad at voters all you want, but it’s up to politicians to go out and get the votes.
I’ve said the same thing twice which you have ignored both times:
The politicians will be fine. The people who suffer are the voters. It is up to the voters to vote in their best interest. You can be mad at politicians all you want, but you have to look out for yourself, and sometimes that means holding your nose and voting against the evil that poses a greater threat to you, your loved ones, and the vulnerable among us.
Who suffers when you proudly declare that fascism lite didn’t do enough to earn your vote, while fascism extra strength rounds up minorities and declares women to be property?
Nobody is going to suffer from my vote or non vote.
Women, immigrants, and minorities are “nobody” I guess. Cool, good to know.
Nah, you were all yelling at people talking about it at the beginning, too.
I mean, rig is right in the name…
Nah dawg. Check my post history (don’t actually), I’ve been advocating (and been getting heavily downvoted) for supporting third party candidates for years
This is not a post about supporting third parties, which is still pointless anyway. This is a post about third parties themselves doing nothing in non-election years. If you aren’t a third party candidate this post isn’t about you.
It is about them, just not in a positive way.
BTW, for some reason I have them tagged as “Tankie Dumpo”, no idea why.
And you are no closer to accomplishing your goals…
There is a reason socialists in the US vote for the democratic party: we have influence in participation and have been granted concessions.
My goal is to never vote for the Dems or Republicans after 2016 so thanks for telling me I’m no closer but I think I am.
Knowing that I’ve made that commitment to myself let’s me vote for the candidates I actually want, without fear of “causing the worse of the two” to win
Pretending a spoiler candidate has a chance of winning and getting zero percent of what you want doesn’t make you more moral than the people who vote for the furthest left candidate with the ability to win and getting 5% of what you wanted.
We have an obligation and a moral duty to fight fascism at the ballot box. Voting for a fascists’ spoiler because the spoiler pretends they are on your side is not strength on your part, it is cowardice.
We have an obligation and a moral duty to fight fascism at the ballot box
Nah the whole thing is a joke. The Dems are corrupt but the Republicans are worse, so I feel a moral obligation to support neither.
If you admit that Republicans are worse, than you have to admit that voting for spoiler candidates who help elected Republicans is the worse option than just voting democratic.
You can’t admit that Republicans are worse than use what little political capital you have to help them while pretending you are more moral than those of us who vote democratic.
You are just sniffing your own farts and pretending you are better than those of us who you leave behind to actually make the decision to help as many we are given the ability to.
Your point would make a lot more sense if the continuous “Dems vs Republicans” for decades didn’t bring us to this point. But alas, we’re in a bad spot where “this election” is the “most important” one yet. Yeah right lmao. Cya at the ballet box
No, you won’t see me at the ballot box. You will be getting high off the false morality injection voting for some dingbat gives you, while I will be trying to prevent a fascist with intentions of being a day one dictator from taking power.
So you’re the kind of person staring at a forest but all you can make out is a tree. I do imagine that kind of willful ignorance helps to comfort you. The reality is the best you will ever influence, while feigning ignorance to how things actually work, is a tree. Maybe one day you will open your eyes and recognize the potential influence for change you could have harnessed if your kind attempted to constructively change things within the constraints we were born into rather than cutting off the face of your allies while being or feigning ignorance in reality.
Nah I’m the kind of person who realizes a constant vote for the “lesser evil” is a slow slip into facism, and I would rather rip off the bandaid instead.
Nah I’m the kind of person who realizes a constant vote for the “lesser evil” is a slow slip into facism, and I would rather rip off the bandaid instead.
“I want fascism as fast as possible” is a hell of a take, but one that seems frighteningly common amongst .ml users.
socialists in the US vote for the democratic party
If you’re voting for the democratic party then you are not a socialist. Politics aren’t just a feeling you have or something you say you believe in, they’re actions that you take.
I didn’t realize putting Marx in your name entitled you to the ability of gatekeeping socialism from everybody who doesn’t live in your imaginary socialist world and instead have to deal with the political realities of the system they are operating in.
Imagine for a moment that you are a pacifist. But then you join the military, go overseas, and kill hundreds of people. Should you get to call yourself a pacifist? Of course not!
Same theory here. If you think socialist thoughts, speak socialist words, and then support capitalist parties - then you my friend are a capitalist. There are plenty of ways to do socialist praxis within a political system where the electral system has been entirely captured by capitalist interests, so don’t you waste your tears crying about “gatekeeping”.
I don’t support capitalism.
I live in a capitalist world and currently only have a choice between capitalism that can be negotiated with, or full blown fascist flavored capitalism.
If you hate liberalism more than you do fascism, you aren’t a socialist.
Liberalism and fascism are two sides of the same coin, like a “good cop” and a “bad cop,” the only thing that distinguished the fascism of mid 20th century Europe was that it was being applied to Europeans, rather than its typical targets.
But that doesn’t actually matter in this case, because both of the options on offer for Americans have participated enthusiastically in bringing fascism to American communities. The Dems are the ones currently backing Israel’s genocide and escalation, the Dems are the ones who built the cages and the Dems are the ones currently throwing kids in them.
Biden could shoot someone on fifth avenue and you liberals would still think that he’s somehow better than Trump.
I am confused because Trump made the comment regarding committing murder on 5th Avenue as explanation of his cult’s loyalty, but you are claiming that is a Biden thing. I’m also unsure of the relevance, seeing that Biden isn’t one of the two choices you are being given to elected as your next president…
I’m regards to Palestine, there are two options: the democrats and working towards a peace deal, or Trump, who wants to finish the job of eradicating Palestinians. Voting for anybody but Harris is a vote for total eradication in this case, and I’m not going to let you pretend that isn’t the case if we are to continue this dialog.
Third parties in the presidential campaign only allow people to vote in a non tactical way. If they actually want to do anything they should start on square one which is to get a single candidate into congress.
The strategy for presidential campaigns should always be to run, get the message across, watch polling, withdraw, endorse until they are big enough. When big enough then open up coalition talks and affect policy by promoting voter reform and couple of key policies.
Doing just the presidency is good for publicity but incredibly inadequate.
Or the democrats could deal with the fact that there is a substantial group of people that don’t trust them or the republicans. Better not talk about why that might be right?
I think there is definitely political space for a left wing populist anti establishment party, you can either do it with Bundnis Sahra Wagenknecht type of party proper anti corruption social democrat or green.
Unfortunately the Green party is who everyone talks about but there are other third parties, and especially ones that participate in local elections more. I am interested in reading more about the Bundnis Sahra Wagenknecht party style though, thank you for referencing it.
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No, because I actually understand how capitalism works and know that screaming at the most marginalized people to “VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO” won’t change anything even in the face of genocide.
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Yes I do, now cry about how your moral universe will smite me while Kamala bombs kids.
Change only happens when its convenient /s
I’ve been staring at this for two hours but I still don’t get it.
And it was only posted 8mins ago, impressive
Are you going to explain it or are you going to just keep making fun of my math skills?
Outside of the uses in math and physics, time can be seen as a recurring pattern of ages or cycles.
The first three panels state the obvious and the fourth doesn’t make sense to me.
and that’s ok
You are being made fun of.
If you make fun of someone and they don’t get get it, did you really make fun of them?
