After using LineageOS for long time, I have finally moved to GrapheneOS. I use a lot of banking and financial apps which I never felt comfortable using on LineageOS due to lack of proper sandboxing, unlocked bootloader etc.
GrapheneOS works flawlessly just like Android. You don’t even notice there’s hardening underneath. Also it protects from Google’s evil location tracking using WiFi/Bluetooth or even when the Location is turned off. I don’t understand how people in general are comfortable with Google tracking all the time. You can use Google Play and Play Services in a sandbox that works just like regular installation, but without deep tracking.
If you haven’t tried GrapheneOS, try it. You won’t go back to regular Android.
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For people looking to change and are worried about banks bullshit here is a link to a list of currently supported bank apps.
If they can get it to work on non-Google devices, I will consider it. Right now Graphene compatibility is extremely limited. Besides, I basically have to give Google money to avoid Google.
🤪
Have people forgotten about the used market? Buying things second hand is the way.
still pricey as fuck in my country. barely any pixels here.
Doesn’t change that this only runs on Pixel devices. I simply don’t want a Pixel device for various reasons. Used or not, Graphene won’t run officially on a Sony, a Fairphone, etc.
If the security benefits of a pixel is less important then the fact Google made it then GOS is simply not meant for you.
Its silly people complain about it being only compatible for pixels but never seem to blame other android brands for making significantly less secure phones. The responsibility should be put on phone makers to create secure phones that meet GOS requirements, not to expect GOS to make a less secure OS.
The whole AOSP environment is very Google centric so its pretty weird to think because your not buying a pixel that you are somehow avoiding Google.
I have more considerations than security, like a headphone jack and other details. But you have my upvote anyways, because you make a lot of sense. I agree with you. 🏅
I do agree that the lack of a headphone jack absolutely kills me. It’s a reason I haven’t pulled the trigger either way on a new phone yet. On the one hand, I want a secure degoogled phone that maintains a lot of functionality with GOS. On the other, I want a modern phone with a headphone jack a la Sony. I go back and forth constantly.
Buy a Pixel second hand. Then you’re just reimbursing someone who already made that mistake. ;)
Just research ahead and don’t buy one with a known hardware defect such as the 5As which are notorious for frying motherboards and screens. Went through 5 of them with the extended warranty over my phones life and they all died while in my hand abruptly. Less than a year or life per device almost always failing around 8 months for me.
If grapheneOS wasn’t so damn good I would’ve left pixels after that, Pixel XL abruptly died, 2XL had both cameras and the fingerprint sensor die out of nowhere, then the 4 5As. On an 8a right now and love it so fingers crossed it lasts!
If they had a user repairable device that ran it I’d buy it in a heartbeat
this
Yeah, it’s kind of wild and ironic that one of the most private OSes requires a Google phone.
Not only that but it relies on the Pixel’s black box “Titan” security chip, that google pinky-promised to open source but never did…
The Titan security chip is not a black box. The Titan M1 gas been scrutinazed by blackhat: https://dl.acm.org/doi/fullHtml/10.1145/3503921.3503922
Just because something is not open source does not mean you can’t verify it (no, i’m not shilling closed slurce; no i don’t think closed > open; no i don’t think closed source is more secure)
‘Just reverse engineer it bro’
I would like to switch, but there are a couple of points that are still holding me back right now:
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Charge limits, on LOS I can root the phone, install ACC and still use the OTA updates, if I apply the patch afterwards. (Will be resolved in A15)
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Option for sandboxed MicroG, IMO privacy is also very important for security, and people should be able to decide if they like more privacy or more security.
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Option for rooting sandboxed apps from outside. IMO I, and a person, like to have full control over my phone. Trust often comes with control. If I choose to trust one app to have root access to another app in order to inspect it, then this should be possible. Sandboxing could allow one app to have root access to individually chosen other apps, thus limiting the impact compared to system-wide root access. Maybe offer rooting gated behind a separate hardware token authentication. (sudo like) A lot there can be improved IMO, while still providing it and making it more secure in general.
I know that my understanding of security and privacy might be different from what GrapheneOS understands, but as a long time Linux Admin, I don’t like black boxes, I like to peek into them, modify or patch them, when they do something I don’t want them to do, etc. So that when I enter personal information into them, I am still in control what happens to them, at least that is my desire.
Taking control away from the user in order to “improve security” might be a valid approach to some, but it is not something I have much trust in.
What’s ACC? Anyway I would strongly discourage using root under Android as it breaks the security model. You should find ways around using root and if you can’t you probably shouldn’t be doing on your phone anyway. Root is very dangerous as it can survive a factory reset.
As for MicroG, it is sandboxed but it does require device admin for full functionality. It isn’t running as root but it requires a lot of device permissions. You can turn off the permissions you don’t need but that could break things.
What’s ACC?
ACC - Advanced Charging Controller, which allows to set charge limits, thus extending the battery life, which should have been part of Android from the beginning,
Anyway I would strongly discourage using root under Android as it breaks the security model.
Security isn’t a binary, security works like an onion, you have multiple layers of security and multiple decisions to make on every level. Currently you might be right, that having root access to a device might compromise it in some ways, but that isn’t necessarily so and depends on how it is done.
You should find ways around using root and if you can’t you probably shouldn’t be doing on your phone anyway.
This kind of thinking is the ‘I know better than you’ mentality, that I sometimes see around people advertising GrapheneOS. Having ‘root’ permissions to the device is owing it, I want to decide what to do with it, not the vendor of the ROM, or who ever else. They aren’t me, they don’t know what I want to do with it.
The goal of security models is allowing me, the owner, to do what ever I want with my device, while preventing others, non-owners, un-trusted applications or the internet from doing what they want with my device. If the security model doesn’t allow me, the owner, to do what I want, then it failed its job at least partially.
Root is very dangerous as it can survive a factory reset.
Why is that dangerous? The first thing I do, when I get a new phone is boot into the boot loader, and overwrite the whole partition, then the system is trusted again, at least if I trust the vendor of the boot loader. When I want to do a factory reset, I do the same, overwrite the flash with a fresh OS image.
IMO, there are other reasons why the current implementation of root are dangerous: They currently considered binary and I think they could be implemented more gradually. Like one application having root over individual other applications, e.g. accessing their files. Allowing/Disallowing individual privileged system calls, or access to specific system files, etc. All of this could be hidden behind a switch in the developers menu. Maybe only allow applications to gain root access when using a registered hardware token, etc.
As for MicroG, it is sandboxed but it does require device admin for full functionality. It isn’t running as root but it requires a lot of device permissions. You can turn off the permissions you don’t need but that could break things.
In order for MicroG to work full, you need to fake the signature, which requires a patch to the system, or root privileges.
What are you contemplating switching from? Does your current OS meet those criteria?
I am currently using a rooted LOS with MicroG. It certainly is not as secure as GrapheneOS in terms of app sandboxing, encryption, regular security updates, etc., but I have control of the system, in case I need it, for instance ACC, F-droid privilege extension (F-Droid auto updates), ReVanced Manager (not using it currently) etc.
I trust GrapheneOS much more than Apple, but both go into a similar direction with their understanding of security. IMO taking control away from the user might be a good option, if you are dealing with just regular consumers, but I don’t really like the “one-size-fits-all” approach of it. And it is my device, I should be allowed to decide what I want to do with it.
BTW, this is just a personal annoyance of mine. The GrapheneOS devs do a very good job.
You can root GOS like any other Android-based OS. It’s just highly discouraged, completely unsupported and, in the opinion of the GOS devs, you will no longer be considered to be running GOS since you are compromising the core OS by doing so.
Exactly right. However all the downsides you have when doing that sort of defeats the purpose. So a GrapheneOS native way to control your device would be nice.
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@PullPantsUnsworn
I’m honestly only afraid of bricking my primary phone. That’s the only reason I’m still on stock android. It’s the inconvenience of having to buy my way out of a brick.GrapheneOS is the easy to install OS among any mobile platform. Everything is through a web UI, so you are very unlikely to brick your phone. You don’t need to type a single command. Also even if you brick a Pixel phone, it’s very easy to install stock Android build through Google with a similar installation process.
I don’t mind giving graphene a try but I’ll be honest, I have the following issues:
- Need to buy a pixel phone for this.
- I use a memory card so pixel phones might not be an option.
- fear of bricking a phone that I just got.
It’s impossible to brick a Pixel while flashing GrapheneOS, thanks to their super easy to use Web-based installer, and Google’s great support for alternative operating systems, which also makes the installation process easier and safer.
If you mess anything up, you can always restart from the beginning and get it fixed. You can’t break a Pixel during flashing.
