Take a car with an internal combustion engine and replace everything that is needed for an electric car. Now you have a no-nonsense car.
Instead, we have a rolling data center that feels like a smartphone.
OP is drinking the oil industry Kool Aid. All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.
We should have laws against it, but it certainly isn’t limitteed to EVs.
All cars come with the same sensors and send the same data home. It has nothing to do with the engine.
You wish to elaborate on that bold claim a little? Because there’s a ton of sensors that are present in combustion engine but not in EVs and they have everything to do with the engine.
You must be invulnerable to arrows, with your ability to miss the point.
Actually your recipe for an electric car is what US manufacturers tried to do because it didn’t require as much retooling. Turns out it is a pretty bad way to make an electric vehicle from scratch. The batteries are big and heavy and need their own space. The best place is in the bottom for weight distribution but instead they had to cram them in the existing engine compartment along with the motor. It’s just not as good as designing it to be electric from the ground up. Most of them were compromised and thus didn’t sell well.
Regarding the rolling data center, that’s actually a different problem that applies to pretty much all new cars. There is a growing backlash against all of these features (and lack of buttons). Unfortunately, it kind of falls on deaf ears. I think this is why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs. They take a more practical view of the vehicle. Although, I don’t actually know how much spying these Chinese vehicles do. It wouldn’t be like the Chinese to miss that opportunity.
I have actually converted an old diesel land rover to electric. NDA so I can’t disclose the company, but we replaced the transmission with an electric motor that had an adapter plate to the original transfer case. The engine was replaced with a large battery pack and some electric pumps, handfull of heat exchangers. As you said, converting is never as good. A big heavy pack where the motor was makes it more front heavy than with the diesel 4 cylinder, range was about 120 miles which is pretty piss poor compared to what it could do with the diesel powertrain. It was very cool in theory, but not a practical vehicle. Another company has done a different ev conversion on some of the LR’s and they used a Tesla drivetrain if I’m not mistaken, and had to split up the battery pack and spread it across 3 different locations in the vehicle. Purpose built evs are definatley the way for packaging, although repowering classics that only get tooled around here and there to get ice cream or go golfing on the weekend is a neat concept. The weight distribution of the components is just so different from an ice that it necessitates a ground up design. Electric motors are far lighter than ice engines, but they need FAR more weight in battery packs than a tank of fuel for comparable range so u cant exactly just replace the fuel tank with a battery pack and expect it to go far.
why would such work require an nda?
Because the company that “builds” the ev converted vehicle actually just designs and sources parts + the vehicle, our shop is the one that actually built them (at least for the USA based clients). I’m not sure the buyer knows it was done by us or not, I’m sure it doesn’t much matter. There’s only a handful of companies that offer this so it wouldnt be too hard for u to narrow it down to a couple!
Ah. So it’s kind of a secret that they don’t do their own work…
Is it just fancy and expensive cars that do this? I have an old hatchback I’d like to convert, but otherwise it would go to the scrapyard.
Not the same guy, but I’ve been around a DIY conversion. You can do it to any vehicle you want, but some make more sense than others. Assuming your ‘old hatchback’ is 80s-90s, probably not a great fit. Like he said the whole thing is really a packaging problem, and that’s gonna be rough on a unibody compact. Older, bigger stuff is easier, and I probably wouldn’t bother with something that wasn’t body on frame. The one I observed myself was a 2000-ish Ford Ranger, and that worked out really well. Two large rectangular battery boxes parallel with the driveshaft between the frame rails under the bed, motor in place of engine, controllers etc in extra space under hood. Total cost ~10k, hours hard to guess but a good winter’s worth of weekends
Less spying is absolutely not why US manufacturers are scared of Chinese EVs, it’s cheap labor and long term state backing. I have a bridge to sell to anyone who thinks Chinese EVs aren’t spying, hahaha
I’d rather have China spy on me than US corporations or state. I don’t live in China and have no fear that their surveillance will result in a fascist goon at my doorstep.
Then you’re an idiot.
because that information is gonna end up in the same markets as the information from anywhere else, and its going to fuck you over in the long term.
You’re too obsessed with government jackboots coming to your door to even consider your car and health insurance premiums skyrocketing at best, or getting dropped at worst, because your driving data was sold to them and they decided you were too much a risk despite a clean driving record.
and thats only a small example of what can be done with this data. it could affect a lot more as companies try to analyze you and your actions and catagorize you. or even better, explode your phone with advertising with every store you’re driving past.
I mean, I’d rather not be spied on at all, but at least a Chinese collector has to find an American buyer, whereas the American collector is the American buyer. But I agree with you, mass surveillance is bad no matter who is doing it.
Cars getting more expensive is in all car companies’ interests.
They’re getting cheaper actually. The gigantic touchscreen is cheaper than a bespoke interior design with physical buttons for every model.
Of course that’s not reflected in the price
cheaper for the car maker, not for the end consumer.
There are those cars, of course. But they are less common in your country.
Show me a single non-EV car for sale that doesn’t raise all the same objections
Why should I buy a non-electric car? I think my question got misunderstood.
I think it’s a salient point: It’s not just EVs. The entire industry has gone whole-hog on the “rolling data center” model.
As to “why” from your post title…well, I assumed it was a rhetorical question to introduce a (short) rant about the sad state of the automobile market.
no reason! I had a 2017 BMW i3 for five years and now going on five years with a 2022 Taycan wagon, I’m all for BEVs!
It’s just that no new cars, regardless of powertrain, are available without the “smart” shit
Their point is that you are just nostalgic for old cars, simpler cars. All modern cars are overcomplicated, EV or not
Why are there no normal
electriccars instead of gimicks on wheels? is probably the first question.I think that’s part of the reason BYD does so well in Australia.
Their cars look like normal cars.
It’s because they are cheap.
I’m not sure I’d want a BYD either…
Every single new car is a connected car. If your data is going to be collected, I’d rather have it collected by China than Palantir.
I’d rather neither collect my data, but in this case it’s worse than that.
Hreszczuk runs Fortify Labs in Canberra and specialises in car security. His job was simple: find out what BYD, or anyone with access to BYD’s systems in China, could see and do to the vehicle remotely. He didn’t expect it to be quick.
“It was easier than we were expecting.” Hreszczuk says.
That wasn’t just an offhand comment. Hreszczuk makes a living finding ways to break into cars, so the fact that he was surprised by how easy it was is significant. Even he didn’t expect to get access so quickly or find so little standing in his way.
The entry point had no password at all. There was nothing protecting it. That one weakness gave Hreszczuk a way into the software that controls many of the car’s functions. After spending two weeks exploring the system and testing what he could do, he was ready to show the results in a real-world demonstration.
“Sitting by the side of the country road, he demonstrates what can be done with remote access to a vehicle. First, he locks the doors while I’m inside, blasts music over the speakers and plays images on the BYD’s giant infotainment screen.” reads the report published by ABC News. “Then, as I drive, he remotely switches the wipers on at top speed, sprays the windscreen with water and turns the lights on and off.”While Four Corners reporter Angus Grigg was driving the BYD at about 30 km/h along a straight country road, Hreszczuk controlled parts of the vehicle from his laptop. He locked the doors remotely, turned up the music through the speakers and displayed random images on the infotainment screen. He then switched the windscreen wipers to their highest setting, sprayed the windscreen and repeatedly turned the headlights on and off. At the same time, a recorded voice played through the speakers, warning the driver to use low beam.
Then things became more serious. Hreszczuk switched the headlights off completely while Grigg was still driving the car in the dark.
He was not able to control everything. The brakes and cameras were protected by stronger security measures, so he could not access them. But the test still showed what could happen if someone gained remote access to a connected vehicle. Imagine the same attack taking place at 100 km/h, on a winding road at night, with the driver suddenly losing control of the lights and having the wipers running at full speed. The potential danger is obvious.
I think that that’s kind of a problem with almost all new cars, not just EVs.
Slate’s a pretty stripped-down EV. It’s got a mount where you can stick a phone or tablet if you want, but nothing built-in.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slate_(vehicle)
No cell radio. Doesn’t even have power windows in the base configuration; it comes with air conditioning and air bags and that’s about it.
Note that the range is shorter than, say, a Tesla Model 3 or something.
Estimated range: 205 miles.
So real world 150, 100 in winter.
It would do better without the aero of a barn.
Driving a kia e-niro. There’s nothing gimmicky about it except for the melody that plays when you start the car. Everything else is pretty much down to earth regular car stuff. And with a price below 40k, in 2021, I think it wasn’t even that expensive for a EV.
They do. Or least they sometimes do. I drive a Kia Soul EV. It’s… a Kia Soul with an electric motor and battery instead of all the internal combustion stuff.
KIA is one of the worst offenders regarding continuous surveillance and then selling the data to third parties.
A tip for others:
To ensure your driving data (like braking habits or speed metrics) is completely decoupled from third-party data brokers and insurance exchanges:
• App Settings: Open the Kia Access mobile app, navigate to Account Settings / Privacy, and opt out of all data-sharing programs (specifically anything tied to “Driver Score” or Usage-Based Insurance
Chinese companies are exporting basic EVs like you’re talking about that sell for like $15k. Sadly if you’re American you can’t buy one because Freedom!!!
You should check Chevy’s lineup. They’re pretty ok, the truck is expensive, but what truck isn’t?
Does the word “car” mean something different in the USA?
After growing up with one, I’d rather walk blindfolded on a freeway than drive a Chevy.
Mostly because they can. You really need to have everything automated anyway, you need at least a backup screen, so you might as well put it on that screen. It’s probably cheaper at that point to control everything by screen than to do install buttons
There’s still some hope
I have never bought a new car and never had any intention to because of how bad of an investment they are. If slate comes through with half the features they’ve announced, then I’ll be buying one after my 2013 Subaru Outback gives out. I play music and do lots of small rural work just outside of the city. A small truck for hauling would be perfect! I don’t want a Superlift Mega Child Crusher x4500 with double crew cab, a bed 7ft off the ground and only 34 inches long, but hey, at least it has 15,000 pounds of towing capacity for when I am hauling my drum set across town or need to take plywood to my mom’s house.
I’ve spent the last year teasing my older brother for buying a full sized truck, now that he no longer has a house or property. Joke is on me though, he just bought a huge camper to tow with it. I guess he does have use, at least a couple days of the year
Elon Musk started a grift in 2012 that EVs should be expensive. To try and add value to what is a less expensive car to produce, he added a plethora of gimmickry and US consumers love gadgetry. By 2022, battery prices plunged 90% and Teslas were the highest profit margin vehicles in the industry.
Detroit watched all this and decided to to the same thing, but Detroit had too many “luxury” models and after pandemic gouging, customers kept away. No one bought their EVs. Stellantis lost $80B in value and has 430,000 unsold cars sitting on lots right now, rotting.
This all pushed customers to Korean brands, as Detroit decided they had no interest in affordability. Boom times for Honda, Kia/Hyundai and Toyota.
I can’t believe I’m about to defend Elon Musk.
Prior to Tesla, the very few EVs that existed were dopey-looking and had no range. Tesla’s founders (not Elon) realized that lithium battery technology made an actually-good EV possible. They made the Roadster, which was expensive and impressively fast but barebones. Elon horned his way in and took the company on this strategy path: sell that expensive car to create and sell a more mass-market, slightly less expensive car. Then use the money from that car to make an even cheaper mass-market car. That was the Model S/X, and then the Model 3/Y, respectively. It wasn’t that this fancy shit was some sham to trick people, it was what a small barely-funded company had to do. It worked out pretty well until they lost the plot a few years ago.
Making a software-defined car does have its benefits too: adding functionality, detecting issues before you get stranded by a breakdown, an improved infotainment experience. You can argue about the merits of those, but realize that the whole industry does this now - for better or worse. But to say that Tesla tricked people into wasting their money on gee-whiz tech is a dishonest representation of EV history.
By 2022, battery prices plunged 90% and Teslas were the highest profit margin vehicles in the industry.
This plunge in battery prices happened specifically because of Tesla making EVs mass-market.
Legacy auto fumbling the EV transition is due entirely to their hubris and incompetence.
That being said, Elon Musk is a Nazi just like Henry Ford before him.
Then use the money from that car to make an even cheaper mass-market car. That was the Model S/X,
Just to nitpick, the gull-wing doors on the Model X were neither cheap nor practical. They were a really dumb expensive idea
There’s one in Mexico
That’s not a car, it’s a quadricycle. 25 mph top speed, no safety at all.
Fiat is selling this now in USA. Basically a large mobility scooter for boomers to drive around their gated communities.
