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Is it 2012 again? I thought we’d grown past this dumb shit
We haven’t, there are still plenty of dumb carnists trying to frame vegans as extremists.
We don’t even think about you. The only time I hear vegan, despite eating mostly vegetarian is here with reddit/Lemmy screeching.
Hahahahahha. Just don’t comment on these posts then. It’s literally that easy. No one here wants to hear your baby vomit of an opinion. lol
Posts a post from their point of view
Gets a comment from someone else point of view
“Why would you comment on a forum!?”
???
Oh wow, a contrarian rudely comments on a forum post within a community that they don’t support or even think about (despite being bothered enough to comment on posts there) and when their mean spirited comment isn’t appreciated, it’s somehow surprising?
???
Are you lost?
lol. Apparently I actually am. Haha
dumb carnists
That sounds like an insult, and not just the dumb part. It seems you’re also part of the problem
Excellent way to make people respect your opinion.
Btw
im not vegan however i do want that animals would not be treated in the way most industrial farms treat them
Fair enough. Now do something about it….
I buy meat from local farmers who treat their animals well, when I choose to eat meat. Most of the time I just don’t eat meat.
You won’t take cheese and milk from me tho.
Interesting that no one sees themselves as the 1% yet simultaneously hold the belief they eat the 1% of animals that are not factory farmed.
What do you think happens to dairy cows after they stop producing milk? Your cheese and milk still fuels the system. It’s fine if you want to do that but don’t pretend they’re not interconnected systems.
Nevermind cows who aren’t producing milk anymore, Milk cows need to have a calf every year to give milk. Milk is essentially non-vegetarian from an ethical point of view.
Don’t go vegan. Don’t go crazy on meat either.
Eat Billionaires instead
This vegan can make an exception for the ruling class :3
Price, availability and easiest to balance. Not much more needed to choose omnivore diet. Eating is already annoying enough chore, no point to make it more difficult.
Imagine not even caring about your own health and using that to also not care about animals and the environment. Do something for the greater good today. It might make a difference in your own life too.
Balanced omnivore diet is considered good enough for your health. Even currently popular, generally considered as the healthiest diet, Mediterranean diet includes lean meats and dairy. Or even WHOs recommendations include lean meats and dairy and a higher intake of it for athletes. Though yeah much less than an average American might eat and significantly less red meats. Glad I’m not from US and red meat is already rather expensive here.
As for the greater good, yeah sure. Just like with “toughts and prayers” and “essential worker” or pat on the back/warm handshake. As soon as i can pay with those in the store or send some of it to the electric company or even if the government would accept it as a replacement to taxes.
Good enough can be good for some. Obviously personal choice, etc. But relatively good health when compared to those that are suffering more is not a satisfactory measure of your own health.
If you feel you’re doing enough, that’s fine. But you’re using the health issues and habits of others to rationalize your own choices. WHO also says veganism is good for all stages of life and lists deli meat as carcinogenic and red meat as most likely carcinogenic to humans.
The sad part here is that you don’t think positive action is reasonable if there’s no monetary payout or benefit. You sound like a sad capitalist who needs to look at the system they’re (seemingly begrudgingly) upholding.
I completely agree, but that’s because the average bar is really low. No point to compare anything against that.
Though good enough doesn’t imply that it’s a comparison to anyone else or the general public. Good enough is sufficient for a specific need or circumstances, though not perfect. It indicates a threshold has been met where the results are functional enough with further improvements providing minimal benefits.
From the perspective of diet, good enough would be something that gets all the necessary nutrients in with minimal health consequences while supporting daily activities and being easily accessible and affordable.
Depending of the time of the year, 75-90% of my diet consist of oats, potatoes, buckwheat, rice, pasta as the main source of carbs and bulk of the calories. Chicken breast or lean cuts of pork and dairy products for protein and fats to support repair and growth from training and hormonal functions. Cucumbers, tomatoes, paprika, pickles, onions, carrots, garlic for the vitamins and volume and some fruits as a quick carb source before training sessions. All of it is always easily available and oftentimes on a sale and most of it can be bought in bulk then. While being super easy and fast to prepare. Bloodwork and health check-ups done multiple times a year are almost always in order, ferritin was kinda low last year and i overcompensated too much with it, though there aren’t any significant issues with daily energy levels neither are there any daily tasks i have difficulties with. As most of it does go under whole foods so the long term health risks should be minimal as well.
Rest is filled with junk, snacks or social events.
It’s not perfect, but it’s good enough. Though of course I’m open to any criticisms towards it.
So I’m not against veganism or in any way saying it’s bad, it would just go against the good enough principle by adding in an extra layer of complexity with minimal benefits.
The energy required to maintain that extra layer of complexity can be used in other aspects of life to once again achieve or maintain good enough results.As for the last part. I didn’t invent that system, I’m just playing around in it with available resources. Though yeah, positive action is kinda meaningless and does jackshit, at least in the current system.
that’s a very small list. i got trouble reading it. could someone read it for me?🥺👉👈
Says “money”
Vegan diets are up to 30% cheaper on average
It just says “racism”, wonder what that’s about.
?
I believe in equal rights for all living things. Plants get the axe, same as the meat-bags.
Devils Advocate: Some reasons outweigh others.
The list of why you should never get on a airplane is also very long.
Most common reason and arguably the real reason for most people not wanting to be vegan:
“But meat tastes so good, and I neeeed my pRoTEiN”
My reason is that I tried it, after focusing my attention on researching micronutrients for weeks, making an elaborate meal plan that covers everything, and taking supplements.
After 4 weeks, I felt hungry no matter how much I ate, and then I found a tuft of my hair in the shower sink.
I then ate a blue rare steak and it felt like a rush of euphoria and relief. I was giggling while I ate.I don’t know what I was missing, but after so much research I was pretty sure I couldn’t figure it out.
So now I’m a “weekday vegan” + an occasional piece of blue cheese, meat or liver, and I’m feeling fine.Same is true for Flying:
“Sure Flying burns huge amounts of fuel, releases greenhouse gases high in the atmosphere, and contributes to the climate damage, but my holidays and travel time is more important”
You’re just making a convincing case for not flying and changing habits / traditions to suit.
And calling out some hypocrisies.
Most people are only willing to make sacrifices for animals/the-environment as long as it suites their lifestyle.
OMG I’ll never eat fish that’s murder. 😡
12h+ flight flight to go on holiday 🥺👉👈 Whoopsie
I’m not vegan or vegeterian. But I feel like that “unless you are doing both” is kinda a wrong argument to make, even almost bad faith.
Because i could say “ah so you are anti work abuse? Curious, you are using a phone made by leveraging abuse”
I think a more honest argument would be to weight the possibilities and the outcomes.
Producing meat does increase the carbon footprint, and the same can be said for flying.
The idea is, how much can beign vegan reduce this footprint, and how much removing unnecessary flights can save? So overall, how much i am saving doing one of those, instead of both?
Also, eating is an everyday activity, flying usually isn’t (in the example you reported)
I have no answers, i just didn’t like the argument
Says “Money” so makes sense
You’ve gotta screw up pretty bad to make veganism the more expensive option.
Vegan food is cheaper because instead of growing soy and using it to raise a whole animal then kill and process it, the soy just feeds people instead.
I can get 100g of protein from chicken or fish for dirt cheap, and it’s delicious.
What would be the cheapest way to get 100g of protein from vegan options?
Beans.
You’d need ~1.2kg of beans for that
That’s 3 cans, where I live that costs a lot more than 400g of chicken. And it would suck to eat that much beans.
You can also often get TVP for pretty cheap, as it’s a byproduct of vegetable oil production. Might be sold as “soy chunks” or similar.
In particular, you can prepare it to be chewy like a steak, which I was somewhat missing from other vegan foods…
That seems to be a nice article https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/protein-for-vegans-vegetarians#beans
First easiest replacements seem to be lentils and beans, though not as high protein content as chicken breast or just protein powder. Products were primarily chosen based on price, cheapest available and as equal terms as possible. Excluded fish(tuna and salmon) as I’m lazy and the price of those already ranges in 12-17€/kg on the low end and protein content isn’t that much higher than chicken.
Beans 100g, 121cal/0,7g fat/17g carbs/8g protein. 4,65€/kg
Lentils 100g, 119cal/1g fat/15g carbs/8g protein. 4,13€/kg Both were chosen stored in salt water for easier comparison as oddly beans are only available in salt water, canned or frozen while lentils are primarily available as dried goods.
Chicken breast 100g 104cal/1,6g fat/0,3 carbs/22g protein. 7,99€/kg
Whey protein powder 100g 417cal/7g fats/5,5g carbs/80g protein. 33,3€/kg
You have to replace prices yourself based on your location and on availability.
Surprisingly per kg, lentils and beans are cheaper. Though to get 100g of protein, id say below minimum requirement, more are required.
Beans 1,25kg of beans to get 100g of protein, in addition 8,7g fat, 212g carbs, 1512cal. Total price 5,81€.
Lentils. 1,25kg for 100g of protein, in addition 12,5g fat, 187g carbs, 1487cal. Total price 5,16€.
Chicken breast, 454g for 100g of protein, in addition 7,2g fat, 1,3g of carbs. 472 cal. Total price 3,62€.
Protein powder 125g for 100g of protein. In addition 8,7g fat. 6,2g carbs. 521cal. Total price 4,16€
Well, chicken breast is the cheapest source of protein, but protein powder is the least volume so probably easiest to consume.
Though chicken breast and protein powder would need some source of carbs to accompany it which would increase the price of total meal, but beans and lentils wouldn’t.
So we get back to the original point of having varied diet and it should be good enough. No point to add extra layer of complexity for minimal difference to an activity that’s already annoying enough by leaning towards any extreme.
Seagull I ran over with my car: free
Seitan powder. You can get 100g of protein for less than a dollar, and it tastes however you want it to. I tend to add some better than bouillon and a little oil to the mixture (still less than a dollar) before steaming it, then use it like deli meat or spam, but there are a lot of different techniques and you can use whatever’s best for you.
It’s expensive, I like cheese, I like baked goods that don’t involve chickpea water, I occasionally like meat, I like mead, all vegan cheese is truly awful.
Also any meat substitutes are always substituents for highly processed fast food which I don’t eat anyway. As far as I’m aware there’s no vegan alternative to coffee encrusted venison with a red wine reduction.
Also don’t get me wrong, I do eat vegan food, I’m just not prepared to exist exclusively on it.
Also eating meat doesn’t make you a bad person. There are like 8 people in the world whose company I can tolerate for more than a few minutes and two of them are obligate carnivores.
Beans are cheaper than meat or cheese, and tofu is also pretty affordable (whether it’s cheaper than meat or cheese might depend on your specific locality).
It’s really not more expensive unless you’re doing stuff like, quitting hot dogs then eating vegan special hot dogs, or buying vegan branded goods, or eating out at vegan branded restaurants, or tons of vegan ground beef and cheese. You would want to make more whole food recipes that use cheap ingredients.
In fact it’s way cheaper if you’re making beans and rice and veggies from scratch. It’s essentially the cheapest diet you can have if you do it that way. Poor diets are usually beans and rice, or lentils and stuff like that. And not canned beans, but make beans in a crock pot or something.
A little bit of meal prep goes a very long way at making it the cheapest diet you can eat while still having good nutrition and protein. I’ll cook up two pounds of dry black or pinto beans and eat it throughout the week. Doesn’t take much effort at all either, especially with an instant pot.
True enough. I do eat a lot of beans and stuff and on occasion tofu, tempeh, and other such things. But I don’t like them enough to completely cut animal products from my diet. The same way that I wouldn’t cut beans from my diet to eat meat every day. I do try to stick to what I consider more ethical sources of meat (if I can afford it).
Vegan rule
It tastes good and finding good vegan cheese is a struggle
I’ve tried every vegan cheese in Norway and they are all horrible.
Yeah, ive reduced my meat intake so most days i eat no meat at all, and when I do its only one meal a day that has mest in it generally. And the meat i do eat is like 85% chicken 10% fish 5% other. Drink only oat milk. But i cannot give cheese up :(
I dont intend to go vegan anyways though. Not in our current society, with the options and prices etcetc. But i also dont actually think eating meat is inherently immoral. And esp not drinking milk or eating cheese. I do think the conditions we currently have causing them to suffer is. And the ecological ramifications are immense.
People love to pretend eating vegan is so easy. But youre absolutely going to be giving up time, effort, and money to make that diet work while also culling a lot of things you enjoy that make you happy.
I used to be a cheese addict. Very happy to be craving-free today.
It’s not easy being cheesey 😔
Carnist here, feel free to ratio me in the comments.
The thing that I find most annoying in these intermittent “debates” where various people with different believes make starwmen and yell past one another is the shocking disconnect between people and the food that they eat at a fundamental level.
I am firmly of the belief that people need to be aware of what goes into the production of the food that they eat and look at the consequences of their actions directly.
People who eat meet but divorce that dish from the animal who made it are misguided at best to delusional at worst.
Similarly people who champion the removal of animal products but won’t look into the eyes of a combine harvester and the animal it has ran over, the displacement or slaughter of animals in the clearing of farmlands, the increase in water consumption as new areas are turned over to fast cash crop agriculture based on whatever the current trend is, the removal of byproducts from industry such as long lasting leathers of adhesive products in exchange for quick rotting fast fashion made largely of petroleum products, and the costs associated with all of that are also misguided at best to delusional at worst.
Independence and community support are the best answer. But when so many see the people they live alongside as enemies what hope do we have of cooperation.
So maybe instead of fighting one another over petty concerns we can come together and take a look at the system trying to keep people apart and reliant on its own monstrous excess
Similarly people who champion the removal of animal products but won’t look into the eyes of a combine harvester and the animal it has ran over, the displacement or slaughter of animals in the clearing of farmlands, the increase in water consumption as new areas are turned over to fast cash crop agriculture based on whatever the current trend is,
Animal products require the cultivation of more plants than vegan food. Animals need to be fed, and they burn tons of calories to stay alive.
the removal of byproducts from industry such as long lasting leathers of adhesive products in exchange for quick rotting fast fashion made largely of petroleum products, and the costs associated with all of that are also misguided at best to delusional at worst.
Without subsidies, it is cheaper to make long-lasting bioplastics from plant matter than to raise a cow and kill it for its skin. The fashion industry makes clothes that decay in order to sell more clothes, and the meat industry artificially lowers the price of leather.
So maybe instead of fighting one another over petty concerns we can come together and take a look at the system trying to keep people apart and reliant on its own monstrous excess
Agreed, you should take a look at the system and let go of your petty concerns. This will make you vegan.
“Without subsidies, it is cheaper to make long-lasting bioplastics from plant matter than to raise a cow and kill it for its skin. The fashion industry makes clothes that decay in order to sell more clothes, and the meat industry artificially lowers the price of leather.”
This post is why we can’t have nice things.
Also, is this true? This feels like one of those statements made with confidence that may also not be true. I know bioplastics still have issues with regard to synthesis that does have environmental impact and does not breakdown after synthesis. Also, corn is also heavily subsidized. It’s kind of difficult to take this comment at face value given the unnecessarily personalized debate strategy you utilized.
my species is at the top of the food chain and i intend to make the most of the privilege :)
You could argue that the current top of the food chain is antibiotica-resistant bacteria.
I’m allergic to everything. Mushrooms, soy/tofu, tree nuts (but not peanuts), raw fruits (and some cooked), raw veggies.
I’m Mexican but even I can only eat so many beans in one week. I’ll stick with doin my best though.
Reducing meat intake and replacing it with veggies where you can does heaps for the environment. Your best is phenomenal, if everyone did your best, I bet the industries would adapt and offer more alternatives you aren’t allergic to, so you had more choice to evolve what “your best” is.
Sadly this is probably going to be a generational change, multi generational even, so please don’t chastise yourself for not being able to do more.
Me for example, I try to use vegan/vegetarian ingredients where I can but I’m lazy and also eat meat every 2-3 days. The moment I learn of a new lazy healthy product that tastes good I introduce it to my diet, it’s a slow process lol.
I genuinely think this is one of the few good reasons not to be fully vegan. Props to you for still doing your best despite how frustrating all those allergies must be.
From a climate/environmental perspective, just reducing or eliminating beef makes the most impact. Chicken and fish use far less resources and far fewer emissions per lb.
Thanks for wanting to help out :)
