Thank you. I really don’t get those people.
And I mean, the Democratic party doesn’t exist in a vacuum. If you don’t try to change anything, of course the awful “moderates” stay in charge. But it is possible to overtake them, just look at Mamdani. But some people won’t even try that because “it’s a lost case”…
He now holds the primary attendance record in NYC. It was only 30% of eligible voters, up from 21% in the last election. That’s literally all it takes. We just need to show the fuck up.
Congressional primaries see less than 15% attendance. We’ve been letting retirees pack our ballots with centrists for 40 years, then complain about our choices in the general elections. We wouldn’t be calling for term limits if we consistently participated in primaries.
Well that and ranked choice, right?
He won majority first round. Granted, I’d love to see ranked-choice in our federal elections, but that didn’t matter in Mamdani’s case.
Would people have felt empowered to vote for him first if it wasn’t ranked choice?
I believe so. The massive increase in zero prime voters (people who haven’t voted in a primary before) was due to his grassroots campaign.
No “progressive” will have an answer for you on this. Voting isn’t the answer, blah blah blah. But it seems no one ever really tried. Otherwise maybe they’d just organize people into voting in every primary.
No “progressive” will have an answer for you on this. Voting isn’t the answer, blah blah blah. But it seems no one ever really tried. Otherwise maybe they’d just organize people into voting in every primary.
Mamdani also won the primaries because Harris/Biden and the DNC being punished in the presidential election weakened them just enough that they couldn’t strangle Mamdani politically anymore. Not that they didn’t and still try.
The DNC could not have offered him less support in his primary campaign. He won over the city with 50k volunteers going door-to-door, a strong social media campaign, and his focus on the concerns of the working class New Yorker.
And Kamala losing galvanized that volunteer effort. Mamdani would not have won the primary if Kamala were currently sitting in the White House. Kamala losing did huge damage to the brand of every corporate Democrat. Kamala winning would have showed that that kind of candidate is still viable. Cuomo would have coasted to an easy victory.
They are either trying to trick people into not voting against the GOP or they have been tricked themselves.
“Both sides are the same” has been a bad faith argument I’ve heard from conservatives for decades.
or they have been tricked themselves.
Worse. They think martyrdom and purity politics are preferable to making any sort of actual difference. They have to keep their souls pure, you see.
It’s religion for the irreligious.
I think that’s a little simpler than that: one of those options requires a great deal of risk, while the other does not. It takes a lot of courage to stand up to the current system and fight for change.
Not everyone can be brave.
I’m not trying to make an excuse for these people and their cowardice, I’m just trying to offer a better explanation.
I’m not trying to make an excuse for these people and their cowardice
Good thing, too, because that explanation would only increase my contempt for them, LOL!
It’s funny you mentioned this because I was thinking about this before you commented: if these people are simply stupid and weak, is it really right to feel contempt for them? It’s not that they made a conscious choice to be this way. I understand being resentful, which I am too, but is it really ethical to feel contempt for someone when it’s an involuntary character flaw that may not be able to be remedied?
It feels like judging someone for having a mental or psychological disability. I have pity for them. And I feel that those who can should do for those who can’t. Because that’s the only useful thing I can take from the situation, the only solution I can see. Because this sort of thing can’t be avoided, it’s just one of those things we, as a society, have to get through. But there are better ways of getting through it then pointing fingers and blaming the weak and stupid for being weak and stupid when it’s not their fault.
Smart people who do stupid things, and those who are willfully, ignorant, obviously that’s a choice for which I have contempt. But for those who were too weak and too stupid?
I don’t know… It’s just something I was thinking about.
The bravery of… Throwing LGBTQ+ people under the bus and trying to force violent conflict. Nah. I don’t buy it.
“vote blue no matter who” is peak martyrdom politics.
Do you know why Mamdani won the primaries? Because he actually promises change. The argument wasn’t to never vote Democrats. The argument was to punish them unless they produce a decent candidate.
If Harris wasnt punished, the DNC that is fighting Mamdani by and large would have been to strong and most likely had prevented Mamdani.
“vote blue no matter who” is peak martyrdom politics.
“Martyrdom politics is when you want to prevent fascists from murdering people instead of embracing it in the hopes that it will cause the people’s hearts to spontaneously fill with l’Internationale after seeing how nobly marginalized groups are murdered!”
Uh, okay.
Do you know why Mamdani won the primaries?
Because NYC has enough progressives to elect a progressive in a Dem primary, and progressives decided to actually turn out for once?
If Harris wasnt punished, the DNC that is fighting Mamdani by and large would have been to strong and most likely had prevented Mamdani.
Jesus fucking Christ.
The Democrats support Fascist commiting genocide in Palestine.
Did you follow any of the primary debates? How all the other DNC candidates sucked up to Israel how they would go there first? How the Zionist lobby rabidly spouted accusations of Antisemitism against Mamdani?
If Harris/Biden,who declared themselves loyal Zionists had won, these campaigns would have hit even stronger.
It is the fact that people understood the genocidial status quo of the party has to end, that gave Mamdani the momentum.
The Democrats support Fascist commiting genocide in Palestine.
Luckily, you threw your support behind the fascists who want the Zionists to commit even more genocide in Palestine, creating glorious martyrs for some vaguely leftist cause in the US that never seems to actually rear its head!
This is definitely not martyrdom politics though!
Any number of dead Palestinians, after all, is worth
you feeling smugshowing the shitlibs what for.If Harris/Biden,who declared themselves loyal Zionists had won, these campaigns would have hit even stronger.
It is the fact that people understood the genocidial status quo of the party has to end, that gave Mamdani the momentum.
lmao
Yes, that’s it. The mayor of New York was elected on the strength of his foreign policy positions.
Utter insanity.
The Zionist lobby in New York went rampant against Mamdani. So yes, the primary was heavily influenced by foreign politics.
Jesus fucking Christ.
Did you just forget the lesson of Nuremberg? You’re supposed to punish people who commit crimes against humanity. Doesn’t matter what party they belong to. Doesn’t matter what other good they might be capable of doing. You must have been a huge fan of Operation Paperclip. After all, we couldn’t hang those evil Nazi scientists, we can use their talents!
We need never be afraid of the vote of informed Americans. It is only the ignorant voter we have to fear, ignorant politically, no matter how fine his house or how expensive his schooling. Such people have never experienced democracy; they have merely enjoyed its benefits. It is hard to explain what democracy is; it is necessary to participate in it to understand it.
The former Berlin businessman I referred to earlier told me that he blamed his own group, people with the time and the money and the opportunity to know better, for what happened to Germany. “We ignored Hitler,” he said. “We considered him an unimportant fellow, not quite a gentleman, not of our own class. We considered it just a little bit vulgar to bother with him, to bother with politics at all.”
They thought of the government as “They.” The only possible route to a clear conscience in politics is to accept political responsibility, either as an active member of the party in power or as an equally active member of the loyal opposition.
—Robert A. Heinlein, Take Back Your Government
If you don’t try to change anything, of course the awful “moderates” stay in charge.
Trying to change thing is exactly what the Uncommitted movement tried to do. And while they failed to move the needle in the 2024 election, in 2028, the Democrats will have to think a lot more about whether they want to keep losing in exchange for supporting genocide.
Remember, it’s always “the most important election ever.” Every election is billed as that. But sometimes you need to be willing to accept a short-term loss in exchange for long-term progress. Myopically focusing on just the election right in front of you is how we got into this mess in the first place.
Kamala losing gave space for someone like Mamdani to win. It’s clear that corporate DNC centrism is a toxic losing brand. If Kamala had won, it is extremely unlikely that Mamdani would have won the NYC primary.
Every election since I could vote (early 2000s) has been the most important.
Why? Because the results built the Supreme Court that curtailed every progressive policy achievement and accelerated our current descent into fascism.
Without GWB you don’t have Roberts or Alito. Without Trump you don’t have Gorsuch, Cavanaugh, or Barrett.
Those fuckers have lifetime appointments. One lost election sets us back decades. The only good time for a protest vote is the primary.
Literal accelerationism. Jesus fucking Christ.
Trying to change thing is exactly what the Uncommitted movement tried to do
Where did I say anything bad about them? It was about the primary and not about the general election.
I actually get your point in theory as you could see elections in a game theory type of setting. The problem is that the last elections have been “the most important election ever” because well… they have gotten increasingly more significant and important. 2016 allowed Trump to shift the Supreme Court long-term and change decades-old consensus. It alone almost got him to do a coup. 2020 could have very well literally enabled that, and 2024 well… just look at everything that is happen. This is not the beginning of fascism, that’s well some steps inside.
I get the theory, and if the opponent was a McCain I could even understand your thought. But if it’s the election of 1930, where every vote counts to defeat the bigger evil, it’s not the time to sit it out for future benefits.
The point is that socialism cannot be achieved by electoral means. At best, if the masses in the street really pressure those in power, you get social democracy. That being said the choice for Americans was neoliberalism or fascism. The reasons for fascism winning go deeper than “the left was to whinny”, but that’s beside the point being made here.
Okay, so, which is easier for socialists to organize under? Neoliberalism, or fascism?
Neoliberalism, obviously. Kamala probably wouldn’t be in favour of people being abducted off the street and shoved into unmarked vans.
Apparently that very controversial position makes us shitlibs instead of people who would like to not be abducted by unmarked secret police and taken to a black site while we try to organize socialist political movements.
Don’t you see? Only when it’s all ashes can we start the utopia. /s
Playing devil’s advocate here. It’s probably much easier to grow a resistance against fascism than neoliberalism, as neoliberalism is comfortable enough for most people.
There are goals before socialism that ARE achievable electorally which are still worth pursuing in the meantime, like stalling fascists, or prevent genocide of immigrants and queer folks
neoliberalism
People here keep using that word uncomprehendingly like they’re a dumb AI matching & associating on the root liberal.
Neoliberalism is free market capitalism, a conservative ideology embraced by Margaret Thatcher & Ronald Reagan. Democrats are for many things: environmental regulation, social safety nets, market regulation, spending on social programs, labor protections, consumer protections, etc. That’s a far cry from free, unregulated markets.
The Democratic platform is a far cry from proper safety nets and regulations.
Every Democratic president since Clinton was a neoliberal. Now that Trump is going with protectionism, they are in essence more neoliberal than the Republicans.
In the most recent elections, Kamala talked good shit initially, until her corporate allies talked her down, and like the good little neoliberal she is she started sputtering out market-based “solutions” to everything.
Every Democratic president since Clinton was a neoliberal.
Nah: they passed the ACA, expanded Medicaid, passed Dodd-Frank Wall Street reforms, started the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, tried to ban non-compete clauses, tried to enact rules for “click to cancel” subscriptions & end junk fees, standardized disclosure of fees for finance services, voted in the FTC to enforce right to repair, sustained social programs. That & much more happened after Clinton (whereas Republicans defunded Medicaid, added restrictions, defunded SNAP, defunded school lunch programs, rolled much of this back).
You just have a memory deficiency.
The ACA is not that different from Romneycare or the old Republican HEART bill that was proposed in opposition to Clinton’s attempts at passing universal healthcare. It remains a market-based solution.
The establishment of the CFPB, like the passing of the ACA, was a stripped-down pro-market version of what could have been.
In terms of foreign policy, the Democrats have enthusiastically supported and continued to support the globalisation of capital through such agreements as NAFTA and continued various imperialist adventures (Obama’s use of drones is legendary).
In terms of workers rights, a lot of the bullshit from the Reagan years is still alive and well, unquestioned by the mainstream of either big party (it is frequently said on Lemmy and elsewhere that nearly everything wrong with modern America can be traced back to Reagan). Antitrust measures remain largely unenforced.
Stuff like this is well within the preview of other neoliberal parties like Fianna Fail/Fine Gael or the CDU. They too have limited market-based “solutions” to social problems. Just tax carbon emissions and the market will fix climate change. Stimulate more housebuilding and homelessness will be solved. This pattern continues.
Only during Biden’s term was there some deviation from the old formula, in the form of stimulus checks and more investment in infrastructure, along with some support of trade unions. These were good steps in a shift towards the social-liberal wing of the party. Kamala leaned into this early in the campaign but then towards the end she decided it was better to get the endorsement of people like Dick Cheney.
Your criticisms of those social programs & market regulations only amount to claiming they don’t go far enough, not that they aren’t market regulations & interventions, which they very much are. If they weren’t social programs & market regulations, then the Republicans wouldn’t have anything to cut & deregulate, which they are doing: the current administration is rescinding consumer & labor protections proposed by the previous administration & they’re restricting & defunding major public programs (Medicaid, SNAP, medical research, public health programs, national weather service, public broadcasting). While you seem to take these programs & regulations for granted, treat them like nothing, & act like they weren’t a significant undertaking that could only barely scrape through our political obstacle course, the welfare of many people depends on & is meaningfully improved by them.
Calling market regulation & social programs neoliberal indicates you don’t know the meaning of words. Market intervention & regulation isn’t free, unregulated market, ie, neoliberalism. Any policy in support of a mixed economy with regulated markets suffices to not be neoliberal.
You know how before the elections we say that it’s not the time to nitpick the Democratic Party because it’s more important to have it win so that the fascist won’t win?
Well, now we are not before elections, which means that now it is the time to nitpick the Democratic Party.
Hell yeah. Nitpick away. Push for actual left politicians. Go canvas for a candidate who better meets your ideals. Don’t forget to vote in primaries and local elections.
Also don’t forget that we need to actually make it to having elections for the next 4 years to even start trying to turn this ship around.
Two different things, “nitpicking” and then you know voting (for Dems).
also time to nitpick fundamentalist beliefs and deradicalize before the inevitable bullshit wedge issue campaigns in the run up to the next elections
And our nitpicking and low approval of the Democrats is now a key talking point for Republicans. I may be ignorant but I’m not seeing changes in leadership which is why the approval rating is low. We want something locked and loaded and with sure footing by the midterms so that, at minimum, messaging is on point. But so far they haven’t done anything to appeal to people and actually create a platform that energizes people. They need a leftist issue that makes people as irrationally angry as trans girls in high school sports does for MAGAts.
That’s what pisses me off about these tribalists coming out to parrot the post-defeat “it wasn’t our fault for not trying to be appealing, it was the fault of the plebes for not supporting us” DNC propaganda.
“Always blame the peasants, never the kings!”
It’s hilariously subservient and the avoidance of change inside the Democrat Party that this “let’s not criticize our leaders” aims to achive pretty much guarantees a similar result next time the Democrats face a Republican populist - Fascism - and that part is the very opposite of hilarious.
It’s also seriously hypocrite to cloak yourself in a “we want to protect trans people” cloak whilst fighting against the criticism of the Democrat Party that can change the very leaders whose choices and strategies resulted in the current situation where trans people are getting harmed: if they genuinelly wanted to protect trans people from harm, they would not spend their time trying divert criticism away from their holy cows.
And you have shit libs still clabbering about how the 2024 General ended up.
Can we not pivot and look to the future? Are Democrats secretly wanting to Make Democrats Great Again, like they once were?
Ffs
What does that have to do with what I’m saying?
Where did I say “Don’t criticize the Dems!”
I’m saying “Next election that comes about, maybe don’t fucking purity politics us into literal Nazi death camps like you did this time, you twats”
I don’t think they’re addressing anything you said, but they are supporting the lefty part where we should be self critical. I would too.
If that is a concern to you, maybe stop sticking to hardcore neoliberal imperialism and compromise with the left instead of constantly shifting right and alienating the left, then blaming them for not voting for your shit platform.
I don’t think PugJesus is chair of the Democratic party, nor a senior politician in it. They have no more power than you or me.
They argue on the Dems behalf though and argue just like they’re supposed to. Someone who supports them is no better than those sitting at the top.
And you argue just like Trump wanted you to.
What of it?
Does that make you no better than him?
If you think I argue like Trump, you gott learn some reading comprehension.
I know your lib brain is too small to understand this, but there is more than being a n American liberal or an American conservative.
You think trump being president is good because you’re an accelerationist.
You don’t argue like trump, you’re far more coherent than he is, but you argue like he wants you to.
You spend lots of time and effort persuading left leaning people to do anything other than vote Democratic, doing exactly trump’s will.
They argue on the Dems behalf though and argue just like they’re supposed to. Someone who supports them is no better than those sitting at the top.
This is you arguing that PugJesus preferring the less genocide, less transphobia option means they’re just as bad as the democratic leadership, because they argue as the Democratic leadership would want them to, swerving my original point.
And you argue just like Trump wanted you to. Does that make you no better than him?
This is me pointing out that you argue just like the Republican Party leadership would want you to.
If you think I argue like Trump, you gott learn some reading comprehension.
This is you misquoting me, swerving my point about your hypocrisy. The irony is strong in this one.
I know your lib brain is too small to understand this,
This is you resorting to insulting me.
but there is more than being a n American liberal or an American conservative.
and this is you very much incorrectly diagnosing my political stance.
Nitpicking ain’t the same as doing the work to get a more progressive candidate through primaries of a major party & onto the ballot.
I know, right? How many of the people shitting on everyone right of Emma Goldman and Mikhail Bakunin ever did any real community organizing, volunteering, or political canvassing? How many have actively worked to push the Democratic party farther left, rather than just shitposting online about how awful Dems are? Sure, we all want (well, a lot of the people here, I suspect) want socialist candidates that are smart and tough on the ballot. But are we doing to work at a local level to get there? This shit doesn’t happen overnight; you start work locally, work up to a state level, and then go national, once you’ve got that base of support.
“I was headed right for the tree, but I didn’t slam on my brakes because they make a squeaking sound. I’m paralyzed now, but at least I didn’t have to listen to that damn squeak! See how much better a person I am than you because of my resolve?“
These people…
“we deserve non-squeaky brakes, and I won’t use the squeaky ones!”
I feel like a lot of people are doubling down now because the Democrats on the one hand show utter incompetence and unwillingness to fight Fascism in the US and on the other hand keep up their support for Fascism and genocide by Israel.
Everyone understands in their subconcious but many deny in their conciousness that things will not get better without a struggle. So going down the “i did harm reduction, you were all wrong, lalalala” route makes them feel like they did something and helps to not come to terms that they have been strung along by the Democrats for all those years.
Better light myself on fire! That’ll show those Dems!
Yes, the cognitive dissonance is astounding. As are the consequences.
Talk about careful wording lol. Very well done.
Is the squeaking sound in your analogy the genocide of Palestinians?
No, because the squeaking sound would still happen in the case of the crash if it was.
You didn’t avert Palestinian genocide by murdering other minorities. You literally opted to make it worse. Congratulations. The hundreds of thousands of additional dead and displaced Palestinians thank you for your concern.
[nearly-supernatural level of eyeroll]
Me: “I slammed the brakes. I was on the way to a peaceful Tesla protest.”
Them: “How dare you press the brakes when cars are destroying the environment, you genocide apologist! You’re wasting your time, if you do not burn down a Tesla dealership you are morally repugnant you fascist supporter.”
It’s the “violent” nature of the protest and name calling that have turned me off from them. Not necessarily the content of their words. But also, like yes I believe in recycling even though we have bigger problems.
The analogy does not hold up when change can be affected by the individual.
“Sure, I could have voted against murdering everyone in the bus, but I’m only one person, so what’s the point?” isn’t exactly the position I would expect. Or, for that matter, respect.
Was this responding to my comment because I don’t see any logical connection?
The analogy is of stopping a vehicle by hitting the brakes.
You object that one individual has all the control in the situation.
I point out that if it the brakes were only hit by a vote of everyone in the vehicle, it wouldn’t be less vile to abstain from voting than it would be to abstain from hitting the fucking brakes.
I object that you oversimplify to gross misrepresentation.
Hardly surprising
In a pluralistic society, individuals are rarely responsible for any measure of “change“. While we may venerate- and even idolize - such memorable figures in our history, and rightly so, the vast majority of change is both slow and takes place because of the concerted effort of a large amount of people who don’t really take any credit for it.
So, while your statement is, technically, correct, it doesn’t account for how such things typically come to pass. In other words, what you said makes sense logically, but practically, that logic plays a very small role in the reality of the situation because most people act illogically.
If the “online lefties” were so powerful a block perhaps Dem’s leadership should have courted their vote. If they were so minor a block that “online lefties” should be ignored then you’re targeting the wrong people.
But you know this already, I told you before the election that way to win the “no genocide” vote isn’t to try convince them to vote “yes genocide”. It’s to try convince the leaders to stop supporting genocide.
This post is the same punching down shit you were doing before the election.
I voted for Harris, am I allowed to be mad that the Democrats are still gung ho about Israeli genocide yet? Or do I need to shout blue no matter who for another few decades?
Not voting and voting for trump were both stupid choices. But attacking people who didn’t vote for trump instead of those who did is fucking bananas and I don’t get the point of this. Are we expecting a resounding vote in 2028 for Harris again is going to fix everything? Come the fuck on.
Being pissed about Israeli genocide and thinking that it’s okay to welcome in Nazis who promise to intensify the genocide if you feel really strongly that reducing genocide isn’t good enough are two entirely different concepts.
Asspatting the latter is a request for them to play purity politics if we ever get a chance to vote again. And if we dig ourselves out of this fucking hole, the last thing I want to see is for us to jump right back into it because “The Dems aren’t opposing genocide enough! We NEED to let the pro-genocide candidate win and murder a few million extra people to teach the DNC a lesson!”
People were saying up to a year before the election that they wouldnt vote democrat unless they stopped supporting genocide. Maybe if reductionists like you hadn’t been shouting over them calling them russian trolls and pledging your undying support to the democratic candidate no matter who they are, then they would have seen how it was affecting their polls and pivoted. Instead you continue to prove to them that they can get away with anything. I dont uderstand the obtuse refusal to see that laying down an ultimatum and drawing a line in the sand is the only bargaining power you have, even if you dont intend to follow through with it, it wouldve been worth withholding support from biden and harris as long as possible.
You make an ultimatum, you better be ready for the consequences. You bet that removing support from Israel would get the Dems more votes than it would lose them, net. The Dem campaign disagreed - rightly or wrongly, it’s uncertain, but probably wrongly.
Now, because of that game of chicken you played, Donald Trump is discussing how bigly he’s going to help Israel genocide Gaza and the West Bank, millions are projected to die from the aid cuts already executed, immigrants are being rounded up in concentration camps, and the death penalty is being discussed for LGBT folk.
Welcome to the consequences.
Why is the blame placed on individuals that would be lucky if they made up more than 1% of the population that makes up the “online leftist”?
Seriously. How is the only opposition party not the one that decided they would “play chicken”? You blame people for playing “chicken” but ignore the actual political party with money and organization that clearly decided to play chicken themselves. Hell, they’re the ones that literally decided to play that game.
Somehow the criticism and blame is placed on unorganized “online leftist”.
It wasn’t the online left. It was the vast majority of normies that thought about their vote for all of 30 seconds and said : “Yeah, I don’t like all the dead babies I keep hearing about. I’ll stay home or vote Trump i guess”
Stop pretending it’s some cringe online leftist. You’re delusional.
Seriously. How is the only opposition party not the one that decided they would “play chicken”?
Holy fucking shit, for the millionth time, more than one actor can be guilty at once
Am I discussing quantum physics to you people or something?
So what about your own guilt in being a pushover that never needs considering?
That might be more compelling if the people I fucking vote for in the primary decided to disregard my opinions when they got to the general.
Instead, I have to deal with the fact that I’m an electoral minority whose options in the primary never get to the general because my fellow progressives would sooner sit at home and jerk off during primary season instead of voting, which is why Bernie only garnered 25% of the fucking vote in 2020 to Biden’s 50%, despite Biden being a centrist ghoul. Which means I have to deal with the majority choice of both parties entering into the general, which is “Centrist ghoul vs. Literal Nazi” since 2016.
If you were explaining quantum mechanics you’d probably start with the fundamentals of understanding momentum and position.
It’s funny you make an analogy like that. Because you’re completely ignoring both the position that the Democratic party is in AND the momentum they have in driving discourse.
Do I have to explain it to you?! Do you think the comparison between “online leftist” and the Democratic party is in the same “quantum level”? (Yes I’m stretching the satire here it’s a joke don’t take it too seriously.)
But seriously, it’s not about “guilty parties” it’s about the degree in which they are able to influence the political landscape.
You are critizing the smallest sliver of the nearly non existing left in order to avoid criticism of the only party that had any chance of preventing the rise of fascism we are experiencing now.
And that party did absolutely fuck all to prevent it. So, please. Explain to me you’re “enlightened centrist” take on why the failure of the Democratic party and it’s outright genocide were the fault of the “online left”.
I’d really love that physics lecture.
It’s because actions speak louder than words, you dolt.
Your actions are “only ever criticize the actual left” and so you are regarded as insincere because WERE ON THE SAME SIDE. But instead you NEED to be morally superior and make sure everyone knows it. It’s the same as the people who didn’t vote for Harris and their constant whinging about how the Dems never listen and theirs was the only MORAL vote. I think that shit was dumb, too, but at least they have principles.
If you just look at your actions, it appears you want to delegitimize the left in favor of the “centrist” dems as though moving right is a viable strategy that has worked for the Dems in the past. Basically, we see a clown.
We probably have our political differences but I’m glad you see the failures of “centrist opposition”. Well said.
Centrism in the political landscape of America is nothing more than a support of a right-wing policy shift.
You act like Biden wasn’t also complicit or selling bombs to Israel. In fact, this started under him and his failure to act is why this was even a dilemma to begin with. So now im supposed to pretend that if we elected a dem he wouldnt have done the same thing biden was already doing. Lol
If I don’t want to genocide people or be a party to war crimes with my tax dollars, is there any substantial difference between parties?
You do realize that support of Israel is a scale and not a boolean, right?
If your answer to “do you support genocide?” is anything other than “no”, it’s a deal breaker for me.
The problem is youre willing to start a genocide at home over that
Cool, so you would have supported not a single candidate in the history of the US. I’m sure all the Black folk campaigning for civil rights would have been thrilled.
I voted for Harris, am I allowed to be mad that the Democrats are still gung ho about Israeli genocide yet?
Sure are.
Because you did the right thing to help your country, despite being upset about a single issue.
You are not part of the problem.
Wonder where all those people are? Immediately after the election for several months lemmy was full of people blaming how shitty things turned out on anyone but themselves. “It’s the Democrats fault I didn’t vote even though I know trump is a fascist POS!”
NOBODY thinks the dems are great. They’re fucked up.
But they’re not Alligator Auschwitz fucked up. They’re not screw the country with tariffs fucked up. They’re not ICE Gestapo fucked up.
But that’s not the non-voters fault because this is better than some neo-lib winning.
Immediately after the election for several months lemmy was full of people blaming how shitty things turned out on anyone but themselves.
As opposed to this post that is taking accountability for what happened?
The thing you’re complaining about, this post is that thing.
But they’re not Alligator Auschwitz fucked up.
Do you have any evidence that the next democratic president will close Trump’s new immigration camps? Because they didn’t the last time. They kept all of Trump’s aggressive immigration programs and even expanded them. If history is any guide, the next democratic president will be just as cruel to immigrants as Trump is now. Biden didn’t let up at all from Trump’s cruel treatment of immigrants. Democrats just adopted the Republican immigration polices wholesale.
Do you have any evidence that I won’t win a $60 million dollar lottery prize next week? I play the lottery occasionally…
You’re giving lots of examples of things that Democrats didn’t start, but chose to continue. Which party started those things?
Obviously the Republicans, but we’re not voting republican we’re voting Democrat right? So why the fuck don’t they reverse the policies we hate? Parlimanatarian says we can’t :ccc oh our friends the Republicans won’t vote for it, we have to be bIpArTiSaN
That’s a valid point, but
we’re not voting republican we’re voting Democrat right?
Many people are abstaining instead of voting for either party or a write in.
I don’t like the idea of a 3rd party president without 3rd party representation in the senate/house/local government positions first, but I’d prefer that people vote 3rd party over not voting at all because they don’t like the 2 party system.
I just do not believe a majority of leftists are refusing to vote, while at the same time understanding why they’d be dissilusioned with the “only sane option” that has so clearly demonstrated they do not actually have the will to make the changes they campaign on. Which results in a swing back the other direction by independents giving Republicans power, who WILL actually use any means necessary to put in place their horrible agenda.
Only 73% of the voting aged population is registered. Only 65% of the voting population voted. I’m not sure what the ideological breakdown of non voters is, but I’m positive leftists are in there.
But the Democrats are:
- Bomb kids fucked up
- Torture innocent people fucked up
- Build out the infrastructure for fascism fucked up
- Genocide supporting fucked up
- Refusing to fight against MAGA fucked up
- Taking money from the poor and working class, and giving it to the rich fucked up
- Bragging about how many people they deported fucked up
- Not giving people fair immigration trials fucked up
Some of us think that those things are kind of a big deal. Are Democrats better than Trump? Sure. Is a Neo-lib better than Trump? Sure, but that doesn’t mean that I’m going to vote for a party that openly fights against the things I believe in, like:
- Healthcare for all
- Equal treatment for everyone under the law
- The rich paying their fair share of taxes
- The US to stop bombing innocent people
- Stopping the war machine
- Stop backing a genocide
- Free Education
- Affordible housing
- Fixing the immigration system
Sure, but that doesn’t mean that I’m going to vote for a party that openly fights against the things I believe in
Thanks, the lives of marginalized folk thank you from inside Alligator Auschwitz. I’m so glad you just couldn’t bring yourself to vote against the literal Nazis.
But the next Democratic president isn’t going to close that place. Likely they will expand it. That’s what happened with the last Democratic president.
Oh, were you planning on electing Republicans again and backing NIMBY politicians and then being surprised when they act like Republicans and NIMBYs, like when Obama made repeated efforts to close Gitmo?
If the Democrat Party continues the way it has, they will look exactly like the current Republican party in the next decade. Republicans will be full puritanical. Supporters of the DNC will still be supporting the lesser evil. The only solution is for intelligent voters to take the stick of fear out of their asses and go full support for better candidates in primaries or other parties. The people who continue to run our two party system will not give up their power.
If the Democrat Party continues the way it has, they will look exactly like the current Republican party in the next decade.
This is exactly the same blinkered view that was peddled in 2000, and in 2010, by useful idiots for the Republican Party. Do you not know how far the Dems have fucking come in the past 30 years, both socially and economically?
Maybe listening to people who think worsening the genocide in Gaza is Left Praxis™ because it hurts Shitlibs like AOC and Bernie aren’t a good resource for American politics?
The only thing I can think of that improved socially is federal recognition of same sex marriage, but that was actually set in motion by state level judicial rulings. I can’t think of any economic improvements.
https://ontheissues.org/Bill_Clinton.htm
https://ontheissues.org/Kamala_Harris.htm
Feel free to compare and contrast.
You mean like supporting unions and forgiving student debt? Or do you not count that because republicans sabotaged it?
Just one of the things they say they’ll do for popularity but their ‘big’ donors don’t support, so they compromise or fail heartlessly. Sabotage would require opposition. The two parties have been playing the extortion game far too long.
I think you mean fighting unions, and failing to deliver on the less-than-bare-minimum that he set out to forgive on student debt. It wasn’t sabatoged, it was because he was too busy boming innocent people, backing a genocide, and writing checks to his rich friends to get things done for the voters.
If the Democrat Party continues the way it has, they will look exactly like the current Republican party in the next decade.
If they see that the majority of the voting population is voting for Republicans, it make sense that Democrats will adopt more Republican-leaning policies. They don’t care about serial non voters. They care about swing voters and their voting base.
It’s magical thinking to assume otherwise. People who don’t want either party are too lazy to organize even a protest vote write-in name.
And how has that been working out? The Democrats keep losing because they keep abandoning their voting base, while trying to pull in Republican voters. Republican voters aren’t generally going to start voting for Democrats, but there’s a giant pile of leftist waiting for a party that actually fights for them. Maybe the Democrats should try appealing to them instead.
Do those giant piles go to the voting booths, or are they pinky promising to do so when the general election comes around, next time?
They do. Check out Mamdani, who had record-breaking voters turn out. Remember FDR? They voted so hard for him, that Congress had to set up term-limits. It turns out that this “Leftists don’t vote meme” is bullshit. Leftists just don’t want to vote for Right-Wingers, which is why they never show up for Democrats.
I’m sure the kids that the US bombed are super grateful that you were so eager to chose genocide over winning an election. I’m so glad you just couldn’t bring yourself to vote against literal child-killers
I’m sure the kids that the US bombed are super grateful that you were so eager to chose genocide over winning an election. I’m so glad you just couldn’t bring yourself to vote against literal child-killers
Don’t worry, I’m sure you know what’s best for Palestinians far more than… [checks notes] Palestinians
Yeah that seems anything but decisive.
Really it reads similar to the disaffected anti-establishment arguments that some folks in the US put forward to defend their support of Trump - with the difference that Palestinians 1) do not vote in US elections and 2) have really good fucking reasons to cling to hope in any kind of change at all.
Not that Trump ever offered that in any way that would help people, but I cannot blame them for grasping at straws. Most seem aware of the fact that US imperialism is inevitable either way.
Ah yes, Truly Enlightened Voters like you realize that Trump having performed Zionist bootlicking above and beyond what even the Republicans, the more Zionist of the two pro-Zionist parties in our society, were willing to do in his last term and promising an even greater expansion of support to the murderous apartheid state, is actually No Difference At All with the Dem candidate backing away from unconditional Zionism.
God, I’m so glad these Both Sides Bad takes are so prevelent here, it would be really awful if it was all cope to avoid the fact that you helped literal Nazis win who have been helping the Nazis in Israel to a far greater degree than the other Zionists.
What the fuck are you talking about.
You don’t vote for everything at once. You vote on what’s on the ballot. Palestine wasn’t on the ballot. Concentration camps, fascism, economic meltdown, removal of the social safety, women’s rights, and the rule of law were.
You decided that you were okay with all that bullshit because of something else unrelated. And look - Israel is acting worse than ever now because Trump doesn’t even pretend to be against genocide.
You chose this, and you should lose sleep over it.
No, I was not OK with all of that bullshit, which is why I voted against it. If you are going to disagree with me, that’s fine. But I’ll start taking you seriously when you stop making up stuff about me.
You just called out people for not voting against the Dems in the comment I was replying to.
It’s easier to keep your talking points consistent when you aren’t a troll who has to keep track of which lies they’re telling in which conversation threads.
Well, I called out people who proudly voted for genocide and bombing children. I wanted the Democrats to fight against “Concentration camps, fascism, economic meltdown, removal of the social safety…” and fight for “…women’s rights, and the rule of law…”, but they weren’t. The Democrats were doing the opposite.
Concentration camps, fascism, economic meltdown, removal of the social safety, women’s rights, and the rule of law were.
Those were all on the ballot if Kamala had won.
Concentration camps, fascism, women’s rights
Yes, those would have been better if Kamala had won.
Economic meltdown, removal of the social safety, rule of law
I’m not convinced those would have been fixed if she would have won, as they were not fixed by any of her Democratic predecessors. The same predecessors that she made every indication she would follow.
You don’t think the last few Dem presidents helped move the economy in the right direction?
They’re still being bombed but now Gaza will have a Trump Tower too thanks to people like you.
- Thanks to the party that chose genocide over winning an election
Fixed that for you
Confidently incorrect. Bravo.
What is incorrect about that? The party made it very clear that they wanted to keep sending weapons, instead winning the election.
The system sucks but you’re never getting any of the things you want from it without the Democratic party. Leftists should be taking over the party instead of abandoning it. Or letting themselves get played into abandoning it by those who want to disempower the left. The system guarantees that we get two parties and we’re not going to take the GOP so the Dems are really it. It sucks but it is what is, you can’t wield the state without first wielding one of the two parties. There is no other realistic path to power under the system.
We’re not going to get the things that we want from the Democratic party. They’ve been overwhelmingly clear that they would rather keep losing elections than give us any of those things. Why would I keep investing in a party that openly and strongly tells me “No, go fuck yourself. We’re gonna keep bombing children” ?
If you want to try and fix the Democrats, then go get em tiger. I have no problems with others trying to fix it from the inside. But I’m not wasting my time with them.
Are we talking about the same Democratic Party who put forward Kamala “I believe we should follow the law” Harris as their only candidate for president?
How you people manage to convince yourselves that a Democratic Party win would achieve anything at all for trans rights, is beyond belief!
Fascism is not a break from the previous administration, but a continuation.
Libs are still crying about their loss of power, still doing nothing to resist.
You choose violence today I see. Wew lad this comment section.
Holy blame shifting, Batman!
I would have voted left if I was physically allowed to.
But also you did have a candidate that came in last minute and was a republican-sympathizer.
Do you actually blame them?
Fucking hate this narrative. Go after republicans at least half as much as you go after leftists and we wouldn’t be here.
Blaming people for not voting for shit candidates isn’t going to accomplish what you’re hoping for, just saying.
I’m curious - what do you think I’m trying to accomplish?
There’s some good in what you’re doing, which is creating awareness to the issue of what’s going on currently. But this blaming of a very small group of people, using hindsight mind you, isn’t helping us get any further from fascism.
Is it really hindsight if it’s exactly what I was saying before it happened, and what anyone with half a working eye could see was going to happen?
Ultimately, it is, from an objective standpoint, a small proportion of the US that thinks like this. A larger amount is influenced by it.
But we also work in the communities we are in - in Lemmy, this thinking remains widespread. I mean, fuck, look down this comment thread.
Ultimately, my goal is more to highlight that allowing fascism because you really want to teach the shitlibs a lesson is not acceptable. Not ‘not acceptable’ in the sense that it’s a bad thing to do, though it is. “Not acceptable” as in “people who do it should not be treated as friends or comrades”.
I grew up in a conservative area. It’s exactly the same dynamic as conservatives with their liberal friends. Their liberal friends will always, continously asspat them for their ‘economic anxiety’, and the conservatives will keep getting worse - because there are no social consequences. Not a cold shoulder, not even a rebuke. But the fact is, voting for my death, and the death of millions of others, out of some sense of internal purity of the soul, is not the action of anyone who should be welcomed into decent society. It must be highlighted that this is absolutely a grotesque and vile (in)action, and that the cold shoulder is the appropriate response - not giving them asspats for their ‘moral principles’ in murdering millions.
When people suffer no pushback from their social circles - or worse, encouragement - for their actions, they begin to see their actions like a game. It’s part of the reason why the GOP has radicalized so much since the 90s - liberals give no pushback, not on the national stage, and not in their communities. You’re still invited for the barbecue after voting to murder John’s trans cousin. You’re still invited to the Christmas dinner after voting to deport Tim’s wife. “It’s just politics”. And for an online community which rejects that particularly grotesque charade, they seem eager to repeat it if “It’s just ‘left’ politics”, with everything from supporting Uyghur genocide to enabling a Trump victory.
There’s no difference between the two - other than that left (or ‘left’) politics are more rare in America’s meatland. And it shouldn’t be passed over that that’s so.
!When people suffer no pushback from their social circles - or worse, encouragement - for their actions, they begin to see their actions like a game. It’s part of the reason why the GOP has radicalized so much since the 90s - liberals give no pushback, not on the national stage, and not in their communities.!<
This is the pushback, you nonce. The Dems think they get the undying loyalty of the left because there is no other option, and so they ignore all their issues and sabotage us again and again. Like a game to win. The liberals GET no pushback so we ended up here, with two right-wing parties.
Ultimately, my goal is more to highlight that allowing fascism because you really want to teach the shitlibs a lesson is not acceptable. Not ‘not acceptable’ in the sense that it’s a bad thing to do, though it is. “Not acceptable” as in “people who do it should not be treated as friends or comrades”.
Is the goal to rally everyone to vote blue with this strategy? How about for the next elections, we look into what leftists’ issues are, and primary someone that will actually win? Because this is a failure of a plan before it’s even going to happen. I want fascism to end as much as you do, but if we are actually serious about ending it, we have to put down our petty squabbles and actually unite against it.
Is the goal to rally everyone to vote blue with this strategy?
There’s no guarantee that the next election will even involve the Dems as a major party. The goal is to isolate and reduce the prevalence of people abstaining or making protest votes instead of serious strategic decisions because they know they’ll get feted from their core online circlejerks, and asspats from their broader online circles. Can’t fix the former, but we can fix the latter.
How about for the next elections, we look into what leftists’ issues are, and primary someone that will actually win?
And what happens when the leftists decide one of their pet issues is more important than winning, like they did in 2024? What happens if that pet issue is one that isn’t popular amongst the general electorate?
We should work to put leftist candidates in, but no candidate is going to be perfect - even Mamdani already has folk on the left attacking him - it must be emphasized that purity testing is not the way forward.
I want fascism to end as much as you do, but if we are actually serious about ending it, we have to put down our petty squabbles and actually unite against it.
… so how is asspatting leftists for refusing to unite against it going to help, again? This whole situation is predicated in part on leftists refusing to unite with the anti-fascist coalition candidate with the furthest left platform in my lifetime, and probably since fucking Truman, against a literal Nazi candidate. If your opinion is that we need unity, encouraging self-righteous leftists in playing purity politics seems pretty fucking counterproductive.
Well your current path only helps the nazis, so maybe try something different.
“It only helps the Nazis if you criticize the people who enabled the Nazis!”
Jesus Christ. So many commenters here are determined to defend the feelings of purity politics voters who literally delivered us to the fucking Nazis and will do so again at the first opportunity.
There’s no good in what OP is doing. They’re a CIA asset doing anti-left propaganda and scapegoating.
Honestly, you seem like a right-wing agitator trying to foment division among the left.
This is like the fifth time today you’ve accused someone of that.
That is exactly what OP is doing. Likely on a CIA or NSA payroll. Or whatever three letter agency pays online trolls and propagandists.
Yeah, people deserve to vote for a party they actually support.
I’m quite glad where I live has an MMP system, and there is likely to be a party that represents most views.
Elections are a compromise. Democracy by nature is compromise. FPTP sucks, but it’s the system we had, so you either have to work with it, or burn shit, and not nearly enough nonvoters or 3rd party voters are out here burning enough shit to convince me that they are actually against the system. So in reality they were just naive idealists who couldn’t stomach voting for the best viable candidate, and saddled the rest of us with that orange shit-stain instead.
But your candidtaes are voted for in a primary. If you want better candidates they need people like you to organise and put in the work to get them on the ballot in the first place.
That’s what I’m saying! We need people to care more about the quality of our candidates. But the DNC kicks out anyone who is “scary socialist”. Do I think they can’t change? No. And I’m not even a non-voter btw. I’m just saying, to get through to these people, blaming them for the outcome isn’t going to get them to vote blue.
I’m just saying, to get through to these people, blaming them for the outcome isn’t going to get them to vote blue.
Will asspatting them for the outcome get them to vote blue?
The broader issue is to establish purity politics as morally and socially unacceptable rather than “Just politics :)” that you look over to invite people to the barbeque in spite of.
“I acted in favor of your murder!” shouldn’t be acceptable just because the person who did it claims to wear a coat of red paint.
This election cycle there was no “getting your candidate on the ballot” though. No for president anyway.
How do you know the lesson Dems learn will be what you want, and not “oh I guess the people are fascists”
This is such a tired narrative. You guys really want to focus on the leftists when half the country voted for an authoritarian?
Every movement has its radical fringe. Virtue signaling either your ideological purity or your solidarity with the only viable opposition are equally feeble attempts at clinging to a notion of victory in the face of total defeat.
EDIT: I wasn’t expecting this comment to generate discussion but since it did, let me elaborate on what I meant by “total defeat.” The defeat is not an electoral loss, it’s the fact that we have relinquished so much political power that all we have left is voting for one of a set of compromised politicians every few years. It’s a tired argument because it assumes that it’s possible to vote our way out of the mess we’re in, and it simply isn’t. We need to attack the point of production because it’s where the ruling class derives its power. And arguing about our sham elections is getting us nowhere.
They’re currently one Adderall fueled tweet away from being locked in cages, the electoral loss has already occurred.
True but it’s a minor point. Even if every single lefty held the line it wouldn’t have made a difference. The people who didn’t vote were mostly disengaged normal people and the blame for that is squarely on the Democrats for sucking absolute shit on purpose because of big money in politics.
Have some perspective, pick better fights with worse people. I personally find it extremely unmoving when the left chastises people over politics so good job emulating one of their worst and least politically effective qualities.
Instead, I humbly suggest you try to inspire a shred of hope among the cynical and apathetic - but deep down actually very cool people of the Earth🌠
True but it’s a minor point. Even if every single lefty held the line it wouldn’t have made a difference. The people who didn’t vote were mostly disengaged normal people and the blame for that is squarely on the Democrats for sucking absolute shit on purpose because of big money in politics.
As I’ve repeatedly pointed out, this is demonstrably not true on the Gaza issue ALONE.
But who needs facts and data when you have vibes to defend and assert as truth?
Have some perspective, pick better fights with worse people. I personally find it extremely unmoving when the left chastises people over politics so good job emulating one of their worst and least politically effective qualities.
I love the part where leftists peddling little Nazi enablement get asspats, but anyone criticizing them gets the fucking tone police weeping over their poor wittle hurt feelings.
not true on the Gaza issue ALONE.
There were two pro-palestine campaigns: The Uncommited movement and Abandon Harris. The Uncommited people ended up endorsing Kamala, while Abandon Harris endorsed Jill Stein - who only got 0.56 % of the vote. So not only would it make no fucking difference if every single Jill voter had gone for Kamala, but the rest of the movement ACTIVELY supported Harris. And this movement was not even the left - it included the left sure, but it was a broad coalition of various demographics - not JUST the left!
So show me the data - I am not going through your comment history looking for it.
https://www.commondreams.org/news/harris-gaza
A YouGov poll backed by the Institute for Middle East Understanding (IMEU) Policy Project and released on Wednesday showed that among the 19 million people who voted for President Joe Biden in 2020 but did not vote in 2024, nearly a third named Israel’s U.S.-backed war on Gaza as a top reason for staying home.
If that is true, then it sounds like the Dems should start catering to the left, instead of telling them to sit down and shut up.
Additionally, that poll says “…a top reason…”, not the only reason. Look at the other issues listed in the poll:
- The economy
- Medicare and Social Security
- Immigration and border security
- Healthcare
- Abortion policy
All things that the Democrats keep campaigning on, but doing practially nothing about.
All things that the Democrats keep campaigning on, but doing practially nothing about.
Fucking lol.
You are telling me that these 19 million people are terminally online stalinists instead of opinion-having normal people?
Is there a secret bit in the article that proves that part? You said it was demonstrable facts and data and then did a backflip and folded your arms so I really hope you aren’t making shit up right now
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1/3 of 19 million is 6.33 million. And honestly, if you told me that there were 6.33 million terminally online Stalinists in America, a country of some 330 million people, I might look at you a bit askew, but it wouldn’t be out of the question.
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Your original accusation that it wasn’t ‘left’ voters who abstained, but ‘mostly disengaged normal people’. I don’t know how many normal people you talk to, but I assure you, in the US, even the moderately political are generally tuned the fuck out on foreign affairs. For someone to abstain for the issue of Gaza, specifically, is not ‘mostly disengaged’ nor ‘normal people’; by and large, they would have been in the top half of engaged voters, at the least - and considering overwhelming US opinions on Israel and Palestine, even by 2024 (which saw the first major shift in my lifetime on the issue), those who abstained would have overwhelmingly been strongly pro-Palestine types.
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Left narratives absolutely influenced the broader discussion on the Palestine genocide, including the notion that “both sides” (of the American political spectrum) were entirely identical on the subject, allowing the GOP to go all-in to appeal to Zionists whilst simultaneously and effectively painting the Dems as antisemitic (to Zionists) and Israeli genocidaires (to anti-Zionists), as seen by GOP strategists running ads simultaneously pushing both negative views in swing states with large Jewish or Arabic populations.
Lets back up a bit.
You claimed that the Gaza issue ‘alone’ proved your point. So originally you were suggesting that not only those 6 mil were left fanatics, but the other 12 mil as well? *
My claim is that there are two groups: crazy abstaining leftoids and normal people who lean left. The Dems lost because they failed to effectively appeal to this second group. You might think that this group is stupid - I’m not arguing that, lots of groups have poor judgement and they are definitely not the worst, but it’s still besides the point.
I think that group can be mobilized with a good campaign that appeals to those people. I think that’s a big part of how Mamdani got unprecedentedly high turnout in New York. I don’t think that everyone who voted for him was a mad lefty.
- btw, I want to point out the study said that those people listed Gaza as ‘their top issue’, not their exclusive reason for abstaining. Saying that every single person who listed Gaza as their top issue for abstaining was some kind of terminal lefty is a mad enough claim in itself.
You claimed that the Gaza issue ‘alone’ proved your point. So originally you were suggesting that not only those 6 mil were left fanatics, but the other 12 mil as well? *
My point is not that they’re ‘fanatics’, my point is that they chose to abstain from voting for the sake of some abstract notion of left purity despite this leading directly to the murder of MORE of the people they claimed to be standing up for, and in service to the genocidaires they claimed to be standing against. I mean, fuck’s sake, the Israeli far-right was openly celebrating Trump’s win, and openly pulling for him before that.
Enough of that 6 million were left-leaning and voted on purity politics concerns, as demonstrated by the top issue named being Gaza, not a traditionally right-wing or centrist issue, and one that polling backed up even at the time as overwhelmingly the concern of left-leaning voters, not centrist or right-leaning voters, that Harris, a centrist ghoul but the anti-fascist coalition candidate, lost by a paltry ~2 million votes, leading the literal Nazi candidate to win.
My claim is that there are two groups: crazy abstaining leftoids and normal people who lean left. The Dems lost because they failed to effectively appeal to this second group.
There was considerable cross-pollination of ideas between the fringe left in 2024 on the Gaza issue and the mainstream; I find it would be a very difficult argument, then, to make that the ‘normal people who lean left’ were not similarly ‘enjoying’ a cross-pollination of narratives of that variety, especially since the ultimate decision made was to abstain from voting despite one candidate being distinctively and significantly worse on the issue than the other. That fringe left groups openly pushed the idea that “both sides” were the same on the issue of Gaza in 2024, it would seem difficult to suggest that ‘normal people who lean left’ were immune to narrative suggestions by ideological allies, while mainstream sources and folk were uniquely suggestible.
What’s more, where and why is the distinction made? If the reason for abstaining is predicated on the same insane ideas, that one worships Stalin and the other ‘only’ thinks that left-purity on an issue is worth genociding Gazans and Americans alike is a minor detail. My claim is not that the majority of those who abstained on the Gaza issue are Stalinists, but that they, based on insane ideas of purity and overwhelmingly on leftist grounds, not right-wing or centrist grounds (as neither right-wing nor centrists are particularly anti-Gazan genocide in appreciable numbers, nor are they ordinarily reliable Dem voters), cratered our last hope of averting all of… this. Regardless of what happens going forward, we very much did not avert goddamn anything, and we very easily could have.
The ‘R/Stalinisgreat’ reference is sardonic, not literal.
I think that group can be mobilized with a good campaign that appeals to those people.
I think we’re arguing about different things.
My point is not that these people cannot be reached under any circumstances. My point is that here, on Lemmy, people constantly talk about how abstaining is a perfectly acceptable and moral choices under grounds of left-purity. For that matter, the attitude is far from restricted to the Gaza situation; the Gaza genocide is just the purity politics issue which is most starkly leftist and the one most often praised on here, whereas the broader argument is that this whole purity politics bullshit is bad and contrary to the point of political participation for anyone with a hint of actual morality instead of masturbatory self-indulgence dressed up as civic interest.
As the meme points on, no amount of street cred or internal fuzzies justifies murdering people for no gain for anyone except the people you (generic you) claim to be enemies with. This was a bad decision; in fact, it was an outright immoral decision, and it should be recognized as such. That many people on here insist on lionizing this decision as some heroic blow against ‘the Man’ is not only morally repugnant, but actively encourages a repeat of this purity-politics behavior the next time the issue of “Please for the love of God unite against the literal goddamn Nazis” comes up, whether in an electoral context or an… uglier one. And in support of that, you can look at any number of historical revolutions which fell to infighting, even at the cost of their own literal lives; the successful revolutions succeed because unity politics, not purity politics, are the narrative successfully pushed in service to defeating the greater fucking evil.
By normalizing this purity-politics outlook wherein people are encouraged to sabotage anti-fascist coalition efforts based on nebulous ideas of strategic civic-duty decisions as a spiritualist, personal matter, we set up the scene for this exact kind of situation to happen again. To be quite honest with you, having my life potentially condemned by people who claim to be the allies of folk like me, on what is theoretically on behalf of folk they, likewise, have condemned in greater numbers, is a shit deal to go through even once. I would rather not go through it twice, assuming I get to live that long.
I’m not looking forward to RFK’s camps for concentration. I’m not looking forward to having Medicaid stripped from me and ending up unmedicated and vomiting blood on the floor of my bathroom, again, this time probably until I exsanguinate. I’m not looking forward to hearing about Israel finishing up their long-desired genocide in both Gaza and the West Bank. I’m not looking forward to hearing the horror stories from Alligator Auschwitz. I’m not looking forward to hearing about whatever murderous fuckwit plans the administration has for trans folk. I’m not looking forward to the 6 million projected deaths from the pointlessly cruel abolition of US aid internationally. I’m not looking forward to hearing how many additional Ukrainians are going to die because the US is now simping for Russian genocide and imperialism. And I’m really fucking tired of hearing people talk about how letting all of this happen was Great, Actually, because it fulfilled some need to keep a pure soul for the Leftist Afterlife™.
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You are absolutely right. Few people ever claimed the Dems are in any way perfect, they aren’t, but the constant stream of posts here that seem to have only one purpose, ensuring the fascists hold power, disgusts me to no end. “It’s all the Dems fault! , because if they would only adhere to my left ideology which is -totally- popular in socialism hating America, they would have won” is not getting us out of this any time soon.
In November, the difference was clear. One party offered slow incremental improvements on many real issues. Letting society adapt to these changes as they go along. The other stood for the wanton destruction of everything as you see now.
Making sure people hate the other party, in this stupid two party system is making sure the dictatorship can go on as it pleases forever.
Dude complaining about it isn’t helping. You aren’t entitled to anyone else’s vote. They can vote how they want. I don’t like it either but that’s how democracy works.
Focus your energy on something you can control
You aren’t entitled to anyone else’s vote.
I never said I was. Like Trump voters, however, using one’s power to vote to enable literal fucking Nazis is worthy of fucking criticism.
You aren’t entitled to anyone else’s vote.
All this is informing them how utterly and horribly ineffective protest-non-voting and 3rd party voting is.
Ok but it’s too late he is already the president. Thanks for telling them I guess but I’m sick of hearing it. It’s not helping I’ll downvote this shit all day
… And the next election, protest-non-voting and 3rd party could will be just as ineffective.
This has been going on for decades. This isn’t just about 2024. It’s also 2000 and Gore. 2016 and Hilary. Hell you could even include 2010, 2012, 2014 under Obama where he lost Congress. And 2018 when Biden lost Congress. And 1994, 1996, 1998 when Clinton lost Congress. Etc.
So no it’s not too late because it seems we have to educate protest non voters and 3rd party voters pretty close to every single election.
There have also been people saying the same thing you are for decades and yet here we are. But surely your post will be the one that convinces everyone.
My problem really isn’t the message you are trying to get across it’s more so the arrogance that you are using to say it. It sounds pompous and condescending. Like you know better than those people. You’re just some douche on the Internet like the rest of us lol.
Why would someone listen to anything you say if you insult their intelligence while saying it?
The education continues.
Lmao accusing me of arrogance. You are dripping with it Mr. “But surely your post will be the one that convinces everyone.” Lol you are everything you accuse other people of being. AND (just gonna fill this part in) look at what it’s gotten everyone. That’s literally the whole point.
