In a leaked memo, Shopify CEO Tobi Lütke put limits on employees having side hustles, saying Shopify requires ‘unshared attention’::Shopify CEO Tobi Lütke discourages employees from side hustles in company memo, saying their jobs require their undivided attention.
“I’m excited to share that Tobias “Tobi” Lütke, CEO and founder of Shopify, will join Coinbase’s Board of Directors.”, CEO Coinbase, Brian Armstrong, 31st Jan 2022.
Hmm. Sounds an awful lot like a side hustle.
Narrator: It was.
I’ve often wondered about this kind of thing. Are board members paid? How much time does it take to be one? It always seems like they have people on the board who are only tangentially connected to the company. Why is that?
Not terribly much time, by the looks of it. For example, look at the list of boards Disney CEO Bob Iger sits on:
https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/DIS/company-people
Publicly traded companies should have their board compensation made public. Iger sits on a lot of philinthropic organizations; I think 501c3’s will have that reported to the IRS. But he probably has a day long meeting for each once or twice a year.
Edit: here’s Bloomberg Philinthropic’s IRS filling (one of the boards Iger sits on). $10.9k per board member. https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/205602483
For public companies you get elected by the share holders. If you own enough stock you can pretty much elect yourself. But otherwise it’s a game of trading favors… cause a lot of stock is owned by large stock funds and what not, so you have sort of power brokers deciding on a large quantity of votes that they don’t really own…
What an employee does in their private time is none of a company’s business. They can fuck off tbh.
*Unless the employee is competing directly with the company
(I originally read into nonexistent context from the headline and am dum-dum.)
Fuck that noise.
In tech, my brain is my brain. Your employment is a license to use my brain for 8 hours a day. If I choose to get employed elsewhere, I still have my brain and it’s being licensed there too. If you want to license my brain 24/7, then we’re upping the cost significantly and you better fucking put it in the terms.
Yeah you’re not understanding the hypothetical at all.
If I hire you to do a job, and outside of working hours for me, you’re actively working against me, you’re fucking fired out of a cannon.
Thing is it’s never that black and white. Every business does somethings better than it’s competitors, otherwise one of them would have already gone under. It’s people that work at both that brimg both businesses forward.
Why do you think big tech big tech companies call as soon as you leave another big tech company?
We’re talking about working simultaneously for direct competitors. You don’t do that. You get rightfully fired from whichever company you’re stabbing in the back. It’s a conflict of interest, period.
Freelance or contractors hired only for a specific project does not apply.
Big words for a little guy who’s not currently paying me.
Are you daft? Seriously.
It’s a hypothetical, and it’s describing clear CONFLICT OF INTEREST, not a fucking iamverybadass comment.
If I started Big Ass data ANALysis and hired you design an analytics suite to sell access to businesses, and it’s way better than direct competitor’s Tiny Data Intelligence Computing’s product, and you start working directly for Tiny DIC coding their product package, that’s a conflict of interest and you WILL be fired. It’s fucking simple.
Sounds like you are very badass.
Thing is I’m all for a company dumping an employee who engages in hate speech, for example, in their spare time. It’s at-will employment so anything goes technically.
The problem here is that the guy is targeting something totally inappropriate: the concept of personal time itself. He’s saying in thinly coded language that he expects people to be working all the time. He wants to own their spare time. There’s nothing to do about this except for his staff to dump him and his company and quit their jobs. It’s at-will employment so anything goes.
The capitalist mindset is basically slave holding with extra steps. They think they own you, but couch it in corporate-speak, using emotive words like ‘loyalty’ and ‘efficiency’. That way, instead of sounding like the narcissistic leeches they are, the onus is on the employee to not break the bonds of ‘trust’ bestowed upon them by their capitalist overlords.
I felt this so hard, when I started getting sick, I quit my job proactively rather than inflict the harm my tardiness and less-than-peak performance might do to the company. No severance, no safety net, and now I’m literally destitute after being a top performer in my industry for years. It works.
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He should probably get the fuck off Coinbase’s board of directors then.
Perfect comeback. Fucking hypocritical piece of shit, this dude.
With a slimy bio on the coinbase page too: “Tobi Lütke has served as a member of our board of directors since February 2022. Since September 2004, Mr. Lütke has served as co-founder and director of Shopify, Inc., an e-commerce company, and, since April 2008, has served as its Chief Executive Officer.”
Source: https://investor.coinbase.com/governance/board-of-directors/default.aspx
I like your style.
“Our company is like a professional sports team, except we are definitely not going to pay you like actual professional sports players.” - a guy who makes way too much money
Well this is it. The top comment. 100% accuracy.
Fuck Shopify sideways with a rusty pineapple. 🤌🏼
I like the platform but that founder creeps me the fuck out.
How exactly does a pineapple become rusty?
One adds the rust purposefully I believe
Find a way.
Looks at all the sponsorship work that professional athletes do outside of playing their sport…
I had a boss who, during a meeting about a raise for me, said “you care more about what you make than I do”, which prompted me to up my asked-for salary by 50% on the spot - and he agreed to pay it. This guy was very much like a pro team owner, albeit Ted Stepien.
I worked for as a software engineer for a company that I did interviews for. We were told that “pet projects” were a red flag unless they were a current college student. They showed a lack of commitment to their current employer. Basically, there’s no reason for them to have a side project, they should be working more for their current boss.
I left that company shortly after.
One of my first companies put a clause in to say that they owned the code you wrote in your spare time. I peaced out too.
So glad to live in California where that type of shit is explicitly illegal. Open source software would be so fucked with how much software is produced here.
It’s explicitly illegal in California? I’ve never heard that before.
California has a lot of laws that stops corps from pulling shit, the corps usually leave it in their employee contracts as a scare tactic though. Non-competes for example are illegal, the reasoning os that most arguements for it are already covered by corporate espionage laws. It also fucks over the worker 9/10.
In large part because at least some portion of California lawmakers knows their history well enough to be aware that all of Silicon Valley is a thing in the first place because people were able to leave and take their ideas with them and start something new.
A huge portion of the value of Silicon Valley today can still be traced back to when the “Traitorous Eight” left Shockley Semiconductor to form Fairchild in 1957, and build tech based on what they’d learnt at Shockley, with many of them then going on to leave Fairchild and found further new companies. The outcome of that among many others resulted in both Intel and AMD, and the same pattern has repeated many times.
Makes sense, I wasnt actually aware of that. But then again im from the Inland Empire so the goings on of the coastal cities makes me want to lobotomize myself.
I don’t know why you guys are like that, it’s wonderful out here.
That’s meaningless if you don’t use their equipment to do it. If you make a sandwich, do they own it? A table? A child? A novel? A painting?
Only the first born. You get to keep the rest.
I’m pretty sure this is illegal even in the US.
edit: shit, it depends on the State?!
Repeat for every labor issue
that would never hold up in court I would imagine so long as you aren’t using company property to write the code
I almost got into legal trouble by them when I left. Their contract also said I couldn’t work within 15 miles around any of their head offices in the world or any of their clients. They had hundreds of clients.
So I left and I did apply to work for their clients and they told my employer that this was against my contract. The employer laughed and said this isn’t enforceable anywhere. However, when they passed it by their legal department they said that it isn’t worth a legal fight even though it’s easily winnable. Just asked me to wait a year.
Sounds like a good reason for the client to ditch them too.
Depends on jurisdiction. Worth checking before taking any chances. Also worth considering that an employer willing to put that in the contract may well try to fire you and/or sue you if you come up with something valuable and they decide they want it, so even when you’re in the right it’s often not worth working for a company like that.
I had one tried that, I crossed it out before signing… it’s total BS.
One of the companies I worked for put into their employment agreement language that stated they owned all the code I had written before starting work for them. It was the most hilarious overreach I’ve ever seen in an employment agreement - but then companies can put literally anything they want into the agreements, and they aren’t worth shit anyway.
I told them this was utterly ridiculous and edited the agreement to remove this and some other nonsense before signing it, and they hired me anyway.
Why would they do that?
I’d be lying if I said I knew for sure.
It was a software consulting place.
If you’re an engineer employment contracts generally include clauses to give them anything you invent at home
These are typically limited to business relevant intentions (e.g., in theory if you work for shopify you would be able to work on code for rocket powered roller skates but not anything related to commerce – this tends to be the extent of what’s legally enforceable anyways). I wouldn’t accept one that gobbles up any work that I do, too much red tape.
Staying away from big companies typically makes this all easier, because in the worst case it ends up in court … and the mega corp may make an argument for way too many things and drag out the court to proceedings with a near infinite number of lawyers.
Alternatively, live somewhere that forbids this stuff (I think California is included in that list).
If they don’t recognize that it’s a stave on burnout and a way to learn and expand one’s skillset, I don’t want to work with them either.
“I don’t have any side projects so there’s no reason you shouldn’t pay me a living wage”
Shit in my field we are pressured into having a side hussle. Sparks creativity and innovation while being free to those who pay us.
We were told that “pet projects” were a red flag unless they were a current college student.
Damn, I had seven jobs as a programmer over a 23-year period, and every single one I got because of my “side hustle” writing and releasing music composition software.
My employer is the same. I was almost fired for attending a (unpaid!) hackathon during a weekend. A colleague was fired for doing volunteer work in weekends.
Yes, I’m looking for a new job.
Your employer deserves to have sugar poured into his gas tank.
That’s so wild. A smart company would be begging their employees to learn how to solve new problems on the weekend for fun. Intellectually curious people are exactly who you want.
The only way this would make sense would be if you signed an NDA or something that would prevent you from participating in the specific hackathon, because secrets.
No NDA, completely different sector. Stated reason was the same as in the article: “we need your full undivided attention”, followed by some bullshit that they were “concerned” I would be overworking myself. Maybe they should have reduced the work load at work if they were truly concerned, as I was pulling 60+ hour work weeks at the time.
My company will actually donate money equivalent to your hours volunteered (albeit at some lower wage of like $10/hr) when volunteering with any one of hundreds of charities and they have an application to submit new charities if yours isn’t listed.
Come on dude, you know that they regularly will do these jobs within the paid hours of their main employment
Lesson learned: Feed your boss shit and do what you want on your own time.
How does he know what you do on weekends?
You never talk about what you did in the weekend over the water cooler?
Also: she, not he.
Oh shit that’s toxic af
sounds like a good riddance type of situation
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Calm down tankie. Fire isn’t always the solution to every problem.
Then pay enough that they don’t need a side hustle.
Shopify has been known to pay good rates for developers.
If people have more energy and want to do more work for more money, offer them more money for more work or let them do other work. It’s simple.
I can’t stand the normalisation of the term “side hustle” when it’s just a capitalist weasel word for having a second job.
I disagree. A second job is a “second job”.
A side hustle is something you own.
I make apps on the side. I have no boss, nobody to report to. Some of them, I’ve made some extra loot.
Can you make me an app? I have a killer idea. Its uber-eats, but the driver has to come inside and eat dinner with you when you’re lonely.
Being an instacart shopper, doordasher or Uber driver is a “side hustle.” You don’t own that. You’re a contractor giving up labor rights to make very little extra money.
A second job is something you must attend. A “side hustle” can be picked up and put down as needed/convenient.
That’s the actual difference.
Nah that’s a side job.
While that definition sounds ideal, I think most people with side hustles are still working for someone, just with flexible hours. DoorDash, Uber, transcription, etc.
Just wanted to add that part of this may be a culture thing. Here in Germany, you are required to get your employers permission to get a second job or the like. Many of you might instinctively find this corporate BS, but in reality it’s mainly worker’s protection. No employee is allowed to work over 60 (I think) hours in a week. To make the companies stick to that, the government will come for them if any worker exceeds this number. Your employer has the responsibility to not let you exceed that, even across multiple jobs. That’s why you have to get permission for side hustles. There are other (not so pro worker) reasons for this, but that would go too far. Suffice to say that Lütke is German and this might be some thing he brought from Germany.
I feel like that’s some pro-worker framing, but this could just as easily be framed in an anti-worker fashion…
It depends on the societal framework. That would be anti-worker in the U.S. because you’d be sentencing some people to death, since the U.S. doesn’t have guaranteed livable wages or livable safety nets for those out of work. Given the assumption that you can make ends meet, mandating a cap on the hours spent working for someone else’s benefit and missing out on your own life is pro-human.
Is there some mechanism that ensures that a person is paid well enough to support themself and possibly a dependent on <= 60 hrs/week? In the US the federal minimum wage, which was last raised 14 years ago, is insufficient for the cost of living in some areas.
There is a minimum wage that’s not too shabby (not good, make no mistake, but will prevent you from going hungry) and if a person is working but under the existential minimum, the government will basically put them on unemployment benefits and top up their salary to bring them up to said minimum. The system has faults, yes, and most people will do everything on their power to not be dependent on the government for that, but it will keep (cheap) food in the fridge.
Yeah, in a lot of ways I feel like this has the same vibe as “CEO believes that children should not be allowed to work”. Perhaps somewhere out there is a kid that would like more money, and so denying them opportunities sounds very anti-freedom - but it would moreover be a flag about something broken in society and their ability to take care of themselves.
Wait. If I choose to work multiple jobs and I choose to work 65 hrs a week because (reasons) that’s against the law and it’s somehow the employer’s burden to stop that?
Edit: I say this as a person who values his time and work life balance. Maybe when I was in my 20s and had more energy then sense of have done that.
Exactly, yes. The same goes for working more than 10hrs in a single day.
Edit: that does not apply to self-employed people. So if you work 90 hrs in your own company, that’s fine.
Here in Germany, you are required to get your employers permission to get a second job or the like
I’d have a real big problem with that. People are cool with that in Germany?
Yes, people here are absolutely fine with that. You probably come from a very different world culture-wise. First of all, second jobs are not the norm here. It’s rather rare, actually and most second jobs are hobbies you take money for, like photography or the like. Your employer will almost certainly not even bother to ask any further.
Secondly: your employer cannot object just because they don’t like your face. There are set criteria. They will object if your second job would conflict directly with your first job, that’d be if you work at a competitor, would have work hours in your second job that conflict with those of your first job or would work too much all together. That’s it.
Shopify’s user base is probably like 75% side hustles, right? A significant portion of which are his own employees?
So I heard lots of frustration in comments around the concept but little commentary on the legality of it. Not a lawyer but do have extensive experience in HR and employment law:
Companies can put anything they want in a policy. That policy may or may not be legal. A policy that is not legal may open up lawsuit opportunities against the employer, but because most violated employees simply complain on message boards on the Internet instead of learning their rights, the policies and violations continue.
In this case, it has been well established that companies cannot limit your employment opportunities outside of work, unless you have a contract that specifically includes it AND you are provided consideration (payment or something of value in a legal contract) for this concession. You can be legally and simply terminated if you are doing non-company work on a company device, if your performance is not meeting standards, or if there are any conflicts between your employer and your other jobs, hobbies, etc.
There have been a lot of cases and laws in the last 5 years massively limiting the scope (because employers will always push any advantage as far as they can until they are regulated, legislated or outlawed) of “non-compete” clauses in job offers and policies. 10 years ago every employer was throwing these into employment contracts, some employees called them on their bullshit and now you don’t see them as often–but there are definitely still companies (especially small or new) who don’t have anyone who knows what is legal in this area and just make shit up. The only real holding power a non-compete has is if you have mission-critical information or trade secrets and again they must then receive consideration/payment for this concession of their ability to earn income elsewhere --and 99.9% of employees outside of C-suite don’t.
If you’re interested in learning more about employment law, trends, or have questions, check out my new community I created last week “Ask HR”:
Most non-competes I’ve seen in the wild (when I was an HR, as well as in operations) have been pretty specific about the type of baned competing work as well. It’s less often you can’t work for our direct competition if offered a job and more you can’t start a company as direct competition and you can try to steal our employees for X amount of time. It’s rarely (because it likely unenforceable legally) you can’t do any other work.
Yes, this makes sense, and again I’ll emphasize anyone can put in a policy “oh you can’t start a competing company” but there is a damn high threshold 99.9% of employees don’t meet for this to be enforceable. It would be enforceable ina situation where you’re very high up with strategic knowledge or information about the company or market that isn’t public and you leave the company to try to capitalize on that information using the information you gained during your time at the company. Most people can agree that would be abuse of the company, but even then it can be challenging to prove in some situations.
Long of the short, most of these are unenforceable too unless you’re in certain, strategic, leadership or mission critical areas of an org. The smaller the org the more potential you could actually be part of this group but it’s on the employer to prove it, and again, you need to be compensated for it. They want to say you can’t work for or start a competitor for a year? Cool, an enforceable agreement would be they pay you a year’s wages on termination. If you aren’t in that kind of a situation, it’s people making stuff up and hoping to scare the labor market.
I signed a non-compete when starting a new job after researching and finding out it wasn’t enforceable in my state (they’re illegal).
Yep. Largely unenforceable in all of Canada, and shopify is Canadian so they should know better.
A lot of it depends on where you live and how high up you are in the company too. If you’re a VP or a director, your expectations and legal burdens and considerations are often different from Bob Joe programmer or Larry the phone guy.
For example, in my province, non-competes were banned a couple years ago. I started work with an employer a year prior to that ban, and they had a stealth non-compete in my contract, but basically the rest of the contract was unenforceable anyways.
As always, it’s worth learning your rights and seeking legal advice prior to signing any legal agreements like contracts.
“how they can disclose side projects” - none of your business, really.
Is there a CEO that is not a total ass?
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I’ve yet to meet one that isn’t but I suppose it’s possible.
How many CEOs have you met?
A few, surprisingly. These things tend to happen when you work higher up in a company as a programmer, especially with smaller to mid sized companies versus working for giant goliaths like Google or Facebook.
Yes!
He looks like he’s still mad that the Hobbitses stole his Precious in the photo there.
He looks like his rap album was never picked up by a label and still only has 15 listens on Spotify.
Do they pay well?
Former employee from the layoffs in May 23. In my experience yes. Lütkes words here are insane as are many of the other recent headlines from the company, but I can say that the severance packages were extremely generous, in my opinion.
Just checking. So often you hear deadbeat “managers” and exec types or owners bemoaning the lack of focus in their indentured slaves who are basically so poor they are justified in not paying attention…
Yeah, I think that any employee who can get away with not focusing should. It’s a symptom of bad management. If a given job is such that an employee can complete all their tasks in 20h of work, they should do that and it’s on a manager to know that and give them more tasks. “quiet quitting” is a bullshit nothing term.
