This is something I’ve noticed a lot among well-intentioned people who aren’t trans themselves. When talking about a trans person, especially in the context of talking about them before and after transitioning, they’ll use they/them instead of she/her or he/him, as the trans person in question goes by.
It always kind of rubs me the wrong way, because like, unless they want to go by they/them, it’s still misgendering, right?
But I also always kinda feel awkward correcting the speaker on someone else’s behalf, because maybe they do go by she/they or they/he, and I just don’t know. But it feels way more common that it’s someone who doesn’t feel comfortable using she/her for a trans woman, for example.
I don’t know. Am I overthinking this? How do y’all handle situations like that?
But I also always kinda feel awkward correcting the speaker on someone else’s behalf, because maybe they do go by she/they or they/he, and I just don’t know.
Uh… You literally explained it yourself. This is exactly why people use they/them when they don’t have more information. What’s the alternative, to not speak about non-binary, trans, or gender-fluid people at all? Or to confront every person you meet and demand their pronouns?? Personally, I start with they/them, and change it depending on the person’s preference.
I’m sorry it rubs you the wrong way, but in my opinion you’re being oversensitive. It’s not misgendering, it’s neutral. Maybe it’s just a linguistic limitation, but there’s no other way to refer to someone without prejudging their gender identity, especially if you don’t know their name. Obviously, if you know someone’s preferred pronouns and choose not to use them, that’s a problem and a different issue; definitely correct those people! But don’t make perfect the enemy of good by shaming well-intentioned allies…
I thought it was generally accpetable until a preference was identified. Like if you just met said person or referred to a fluid/trans person from afar, them/they is an acceptable default.
If you don’t know someones gender they/them is not misgendering. (Should be the default for anybody)
If you know the person’s gender and it’s not they/them then it’s misgendering unless it’s ok with that person.
Using they/them on someone who looks trans and nobody else is just as bad as misgendering someone.
Its simple. If someone has not told you there pronouns, use they/them. If you know there pronouns then use what they want. (Yes it’s really that simple)
Trans-folk are the only people I try to avoid using they to describe. I know it can cause discomfort, and potentially lead to others getting confused about pronouns if anyone listening doesn’t know my grammatical quirks.
For everyone else I may use they for a variety of reasons. One of the most common: if a person’s gender hasn’t had clues about it in the conversation, I’m likely to just default to they. Like if I’m just calling my partner “my partner” rather than their name, I won’t then specify gender with pronouns. Disclosing gender when it doesn’t matter can feel weird.
I’ve used they/them occasionally for basically every person I’ve ever met in my life, and don’t think really any of those people or myself considered it misgendering? I understand it can be weaponized though, as a way of not recognizing someone’s chosen gender, but… People have been using singular they/them for a long time and it’s a good conversational tool
If you don’t know the individual’s preferred pronouns, using they/them is perfectly fine. This comes from a proper grammatical standpoint and a spot of caution.
Think of it this way. They/them may not be their pronouns, but its FAR better than misgendering them with he/him or she/her.
My two cents.
Oh, totally! I meant it more like if someone knows that a trans woman goes exclusively by she/her, but chooses to refer to her by they/them. Still better than using he/him! But not quite right, if you know she doesn’t use they/them, you know?
The thing is, linguistically, everyone is a ‘they them’. Just like how you are always a ‘you’ and I am always a ‘me’.
makes sense on paper, but we’re talking about cis people casually degendering trans people this way while carefully preserving the gender of other cis people
I think correcting them is reasonable. If they are an ally, they will take it in their stride, correcting themselves and moving on.
Additional context for this perspective: I am a cis woman who uses she/it pronouns. It makes me feel uncomfortable when people use they/them for me, because it evokes a gender anxiety in me, similar (but distinct from, obviously) to what a trans woman might feel if someone used they/them pronouns for her. I did “try on” they/them pronouns for a while, way back, and it made me feel deeply uncomfortable in a way that made it clear that they weren’t a good fit for me.
Whilst I agree that they/them is better than he/him in this context (and there may be instances where the situation doesn’t feel conducive to correcting someone), I also think that correct pronouns are correct pronouns, and incorrect ones are incorrect. Like, there is, in some sense, a clear binary here.
A lot of progressive folk tend to default to they/them pronouns for people they don’t know, and I have been very proud of myself lately for telling people that I use she/it pronouns, and politely correcting people if they get it wrong thereafter (I may stick to telling people she/her if I am in a less queer space). Given that I don’t regularly experience gender dysphoria, the little splashes of dysphoria I feel when people they/them me are fairly tolerable. However, I have found that when I do check people on using the correct pronouns for me, it feels very good. I think it comes down to agency (especially as I am a cis person who has thoroughly interrogated the question of “Am I a woman tho? Because if you’re not, that’s totally chill — you have options”, and concluded that I am, in fact, a woman. It makes it feel like more of a choice than if it was just foisted upon me against my will (I mean, it sort of was foisted upon me, but I put a load of stickers and spikes on my AGAB, and now it feels like mine)
That sounds a little like they’re hesitant to properly gender someone which begs the question “why?”.
That being said, I will settle for a they if it’s all I can get from someone.
They/them has always been the way to refer to someone whose gender you don’t know. It is the neutral term between binary ones. So, if they don’t know or are unsure which binary pronouns to use then I think it’s a positive.
As for correcting someone, I think it’s fine to do that. If the person in question continues to use the wrong pronouns after correcting, that’s when I might actually consider it misgendering, unless they’re just super ADHD like me, and then it’s possible it might take a second reminder, LOL.
For reference, I’m technically a trans-woman though I’m agender, I present femme and prefer she or they.
My mother tongue has no gendered pronouns. When speaking English, I regularly misgender eeveryone, because my mind cannot really wrap itself around the concept of having to keep track of my conversation partner’s gender. Or that of someone else. Even people I’ve known for decades have an about 5% chance of being misgendered.
It feels good that I can ignore people’s gender and just talk about a human. This might be an incredibly alien concept to an Indo-European, though. But still, people who only started learning Indo-European languages such as English, Spanish, Ukrainian, German, Albanian or Greek, at the age of ten will not have learned the concept of gendering people in time for it to not feel glued-on-top.
When I’m talking about everyone else as they, that being a way to avoid thinking about people’s genders, it feels odd to then speak differently about transgender people.
At least I don’t want to be only a gender. It’s much better if people can see the actual individual behind, and trying to find ways to forget about the concept of gender helps glue less stereotypes over my image as it stands in someone’s mind.
The gendered pronouns in Indo-European cultures are a very sad and harmful phenomenon. I’d say it’s the better the more people stop their usage. A man (and that also includes trans men) is a man even if you don’t spend every moment keeping track of their gender when talking. “They” helps see the individual.
Plus, it means not imposing another culture upon us who don’t have gendered pronouns.
Finnish? I love that everyone is hän or se, it’s wonderful
More languages should make gender an adjective rather than a noun or pronoun
if someone says they/them when first getting to know me, its chill. i dont pass amazing cus of my voice but I’ll make sure they know I am she/her
if they know this and still say they/them I’ll bring it up and mention ‘I’m not non binary, refer to me as you would any other woman’ and itll either make sense to them or I’ll consider ending that relationship
