- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
- cross-posted to:
- linux@lemmy.ml
Official statement regarding recent Greg’ commit 6e90b675cf942e from Serge Semin
Hello Linux-kernel community,
I am sure you have already heard the news caused by the recent Greg’ commit 6e90b675cf942e (“MAINTAINERS: Remove some entries due to various compliance requirements.”). As you may have noticed the change concerned some of the Ru-related developers removal from the list of the official kernel maintainers, including me.
The community members rightly noted that the quite short commit log contained very vague terms with no explicit change justification. No matter how hard I tried to get more details about the reason, alas the senior maintainer I was discussing the matter with haven’t given an explanation to what compliance requirements that was. I won’t cite the exact emails text since it was a private messaging, but the key words are “sanctions”, “sorry”, “nothing I can do”, “talk to your (company) lawyer”… I can’t say for all the guys affected by the change, but my work for the community has been purely volunteer for more than a year now (and less than half of it had been payable before that). For that reason I have no any (company) lawyer to talk to, and honestly after the way the patch has been merged in I don’t really want to now. Silently, behind everyone’s back, bypassing the standard patch-review process, with no affected developers/subsystem notified - it’s indeed the worse way to do what has been done. No gratitude, no credits to the developers for all these years of the devoted work for the community. No matter the reason of the situation but haven’t we deserved more than that? Adding to the GREDITS file at least, no?..
I can’t believe the kernel senior maintainers didn’t consider that the patch wouldn’t go unnoticed, and the situation might get out of control with unpredictable results for the community, if not straight away then in the middle or long term perspective. I am sure there have been plenty ways to solve the problem less harmfully, but they decided to take the easiest path. Alas what’s done is done. A bifurcation point slightly initiated a year ago has just been fully implemented. The reason of the situation is obviously in the political ground which in this case surely shatters a basement the community has been built on in the first place. If so then God knows what might be next (who else might be sanctioned…), but the implemented move clearly sends a bad signal to the Linux community new comers, to the already working volunteers and hobbyists like me.
Thus even if it was still possible for me to send patches or perform some reviews, after what has been done my motivation to do that as a volunteer has simply vanished. (I might be doing a commercial upstreaming in future though). But before saying goodbye I’d like to express my gratitude to all the community members I have been lucky to work with during all these years.
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I hope that this will cause Russia and aligned countries to switch and invest into one of BSD variants. Probably won’t happen, but there is hope.
Wait linux community is removing maintainters because of their nationality???!!
Not nationality but alleged involvement with sanctioned organizations. There are plenty of Russian names on maintainers list remaining.
Honestly must be incredibly stressful managing a project like the Linux kernel. Governments constantly wanting changes made for their own purposes, companies leeching off the work of volunteers, neck beards losing their minds over some change they don’t like.
I don’t envy them at all. This sort of change was inevitability going to piss people off - it could have been handled better but I think it was going to be lose/lose no matter which way it was done.
I personally think this is a cop out. Obviously people would have been outraged either way, but personally my only issue is about how it was done. The whole point of the FOSS community is openness and transparency. The senior maintainers of arguably the most important FOSS project trying to operate secretively on something like this has shattered my trust in them, as well as many others.
It’s ridiculous how some see nothing wrong with delisting maintainers and are genuinely happy about such discrimination.
Not ridiculous. Majority of U.S propaganda is based on dehumanising people.
Also I read somewhere that this ban only applies to folk that work in companies that are sanctioned. So might not be straight up racism.
But I do agree with you. Who tf is U.S to sanction others while it’s formed on a genocide and still committing another one.
I would say sad… especially seen from other devs.
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You’re saying it like they have a choice.
Besides, stuff like this should not be constrained by the boundaries of nationalities.
There are no sanctions against these individuals. More importantly who gives a shit about what the US is whining about today or tomorrow, foss software is more important than whatever petty dispute the US egged on this time.
Russia invaded a sovereign nation…but that’s a petty dispute…are you sure you’re on the right instance? Sounds like you need to recreate your account here on ml…
Yes, it’s a petty dispute. The US has done the same every 3-6 years for the last 200. It’s a common occurrence for empires to do whatever they want. It has nothing to do with random citizens contributing to volunteer projects based in entirely disconnected countries.
The USA isn’t in this discussion right now. Russia invaded Ukraine and is trying to kill Ukrainians to take over their country. Iraq and Afghanistan wasn’t a petty dispute either. You tankies are shitty people.
If you want to rely in the logic that invading sovereign nations justifies this, you will have to discuss the US, the major instigator of war.
Sounds like you are just upset that your complete lack of consistency has been pointed out.
No this has nothing to do with the USA right now. It’s a strawman to whip out the “but the USA” card. Russia has sanctions, they invaded a sovereign nation, and are willfully targeting civilians. They’re fully against the west at this point, allowing them continued access to help build tools the west uses, is not only against the current sanctions, it’s also a dumb security risk as well.
I don’t give a shit about the Russian state. I’m not a tankie, I don’t care about random petty disputes between empires and whoever pissed them off. Let the unrelated people collaborate on the things that represent the end of such empires in peace.
A full scale war on a sovereign nation is not a random petty dispute…the fuck is wrong with you?
It is quite a beefy and roided dispute, imo.
My issue with the dispute is that it has jack shit to do with Linux, Foss or the open source community and the consequences felt aren’t against the people persecuting.
It’s a missed shot. The Russian fuckarchy doesn’t care if they get to contribute to Linux, or if they ever get to again, if they even know or care to notice in the first place.
The entire Linux community in Russia gets to suffer so a disapproving man in the Netherlands can wave his finger disapprovingly.
Is it worth it? Worth what? No one gets anything.
Are we going to remove Israel maintainers from the list since IDF soldiers are using Palestinians as human shields?
Oh, no, because US is okay with that genocide?
It’s really more about how clearly fucking hypocritical it is.
So you think they’re against the invasion of Ukraine, and would like to see Israel hit with sanctions as well?
Because that wasn’t the impression I was getting.
I think we can all agree that what Russia and Israel are doing is horrific. Israel should be sanctioned as well, rather than letting Russia off…
That’s literally what I suggested elsewhere here: If you work for ANY company in ANY country that produces weapons for war for ANY government, that they shouldn’t be allowed to contribute.
Because that at the very least would be consistent.
Wouldn’t that stop nearly every country from being able to contribute?
Sounds like a convoluted way of saying to just let the Russians off, veiled as some over the top “consistency” argument.
Maybe let’s do that tho, and just start with Russia 😆
Way to purposefully misread it.
The whole issue is that the Russians work for companies with sanctions against them.
So, treat all companies involved in war the same way, and you’ll never run into this hypocritical issue again.
There’s plenty of companies (like Valve) who don’t directly produce weapons of war or have contracts with their governments for war-services who contribute to Linux that could still do so, and plenty of individuals who don’t work for military and military adjacent companies to contribute.
Acting like removing people who work at companies that contribute to wars will mean no one can contribute is obviously a grossly exaggerated misinterpretation.
Funnily enough, the steam deck has been used during the conflict to control remote weapons. So they could be implicated in this if you go far enough
You could use a knife to kill someone as well… hell, an umbrella as well.
Google or Microsoft employees wouldn’t be able to contribute, even if they’re not working with any weapons manufacturer during their entire career there.
The idea is great in theory but isn’t in feasible in rl.
That’s not completely unreasonable tbh, but I still think the current sanctions are fair if not perfect.
I didn’t purposely misread, this part was just a bit unclear:
If you work for ANY company in ANY country that produces weapons for war
Looking at what you quoted, that’s fair and can see how you misread it as such. I am sorry I said that it was purposeful.
Are they legally bound to follow any sanction list in their dealings? If so Linux foundation should consider move out of the US jurisdiction, because the santion load is just going to increase and more countries will be included.
If they are just doing this because of a political fad and partaking “the current thing” then they are just voluntarily digging their own and the linux foundation’s grave.
Linus chose to move to the US as well to become a US citizen.
To be fair he never claimed to be an idealist.
Also he is anti Russian himself as he made clear in his first comment in the thread. So being forced to remove them is probably a bonus for him.
Where should they move to? Countries that aren’t sanctioning Russia right now are likely to be… problematic? in other ways. But I am also pretty ignorant about which countries are on that list, and I would like to know more.
Maybe they need to become pirates on international water…
because the santion load is just going to increase and more countries will be included.
Not to mention more stupid shit, like not being able to visit the US if your wife is Russian, cuz… you know, you might be a spy.
If they are just doing this because of a political fad and partaking “the current thing” then they are just voluntarily digging their own and the linux foundation’s grave.
My 2 cents. Nobody is asking them to do anything… yet… and they probably never will, but… they’re scared shitless and they would rather comply, even for things no one is asking of them yet and is dubious whether or not they’re even covered by the sanctions, than show some backbone.
Here’s an idea: don’t invade sovereign nations unprovoked.
(Can’t wait for the inevitable “whatabout America?!” reply. Yes, America is shit too and we deserved to be punished for Iraq… Unfortunately there wasn’t really any international authority that could do it)
It sucks if well meaning people are caught up in this, but it also sucks if you’re living in the aggressor state of an ongoing war.
These people allegedly work for companies that work for the Russian war machine. They will regain privileges if they don’t work for them. So if they find a moral job, they’ll be treated morally.
So shouldn’t this also include the US and the many countries (most of Western Europe, plus others) involved in coalitions bombing the middle east and elsewhere?
Yeah probably… But that’s a separate discussion isn’t it?
How is it a separate discussion?
Because this isn’t a post about the results of sanctions against the US?
Whataboutism isn’t a very convincing argument.
And hypocrisy is even worse.
It is if you’re biased.
Yes, if the issue was a moral one. This issue, however, is a legal one.
Then it isn’t about living in an aggressor state, is it?
Yeah must suck to live in Israel.
Not as much as living in Palestine or Ukraine.
Smart dude. He knows exactly why. To pretend that he doesn’t is a sham. This whole “I don’t know whyyyyyy” face he’s put on is an absolute facade.
In all honesty, I’m fairly certain at the very moment he found out about it, he was puzzled. But, after reading 10 other Russians got removed as well, I’m fairly certain he knew, but wanted proof and closure. I would like both as well to be honest.
It’s odd your racism is this out and open.
Of course, if you’re living in Russia, it’s dangerous to state anything other than support for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine.
That doesn’t mean it isn’t cringeworthy to watch someone awkwardly dance around it, trying to ignore it while complaining about (checks notes) losing a bit of reputation over an unnecessary war that their country started and which literally cost thousands of lives.
Any Russian who stands up against that is incredibly brave. The others, just different levels of sad. Non-Russians who support Putin are the worst.
I understand why you’d want FOSS to not care abot borders, wars and politics and that is noble. But to call this comment racism, comes across as a veiled show of support for Putin. As if critiquing his invasion is a racist act that hurts the Russian people. Putins invasion is hurting the Russian people. Not this comment.
I bet you wouldn’t have the same response if Israeli maintainers are being removed.
You couldn’t be more wrong. 🍉🍉🍉
Bet you I would.
We will never know since it will never happen.
Then why are you here using it as an argument? Doesn’t that seem pretty pointless? Because to me you just look like you’re trying to stir the pot.
No, I’m just trying to point out how ridiculous this whole situation is and that it was handled by the LF, and especially Linus, in the worst way possible.
“Russian Sanctions” due to Russia invading a peaceful nation and killing Ukrainians is not a race of people.
Russia is a country. Not a race.
a peaceful nation
Let’s not go overboard.
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
It’s different, don’t you see? Those were peaceful bombings! /s
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What definition of race are you going by?
Oxford dictionary: “a group of people who share the same language, history, culture, etc.”
Merrian Webster dictionary: "any one of the groups that humans are often divided into based on physical traits regarded as common among people of shared ancestry
Also: a group of people sharing a common cultural, geographical, linguistic, or religious origin or background"
Are you really still using debunked race science concepts in 2024?
Just because you group people based on a different construct does not mean you aren’t racist. What’s next, islamophobia is okay too?
Which is great that we’re not talking about groups of people, but national lines on a map, cool how that works right?
They are under the jurisdiction of the Russian government, that makes them Russian. No matter if they’re from China, Africa, or Tim-buk-tu for all anyone fucking cares. Countries – are – not – people.
Racism requires you targetting – get this – a group of people based on their shared identity. None of these people have to have whatever identity you’re assuming they have, because they simply have to be…TADA – IN RUSSIA.
If I hopped over the border into Russia, I’d agree with not being able to access this stuff – Oh now, I’m being racist against myself! But hey, can’t logic someone out of a position that they didn’t logic themselves into in the first place.
What’s next, islamophobia is okay too?
Of course not.
But I sure as hell might start asking questions like “yo, where you from” on PRs… because Linus made that OK, so… IDK, I don’t really like US citizens and Israelis, so… oh why the hell not 🤷. /s
Individual random people are not mentioned in the sanctions and have little to nothing to do with the state, just like the US. The foundation kicking out US maintainers during the Iraq war when the US was indiscriminately killing over a million Iraqi civilians would have been equally ridiculous.
So no, they don’t and shouldn’t have assumed this is due to sanctions. It’s free software they volunteering to help. There is no profit motive. They are not state actors. And most importantly to you,not all Russians are bad evil whatever slur you want to call them, you racist.
Linux has a lot of cryptography related to it, so yeah - it’s sanctions related. And these maintainers were all people who were contributing from within Russia or have ties to Russia.
The Russian troll tactic of calling someone racist to get them to back down from an argument is hilarious so I’m gonna just go ahead and agree with you. I’m racist against war. I’m racist against human suffering. Oh no, I’m such a racist. Oh no whatever will I do?
Oh that’s right, I’m gonna live my life and be happy about opposing Russian aggression against the Ukrainian people! Slava Ukraini
The Russian troll tactic of calling someone racist
Oh, are you an expert on Russian troll tactics? No, you are not. What you are is a conspiracy theorist.
Frankly I’m losing my patience with this lazy, bullshit, thought-terminating cliché.
I’m racist against war. I’m racist against human suffering. Oh no, I’m such a racist. Oh no whatever will I do?
It would be nice to also be racist against the Israel/Palestine conflict as well… or any other conflict, wouldn’t you agree?
It’s weird how you somehow managed to single that one thing out, even though my comments already included it. That’s so silly. It’s almost like you have some sort of agenda or something…
Pretty sure what I said was CRYSTAL clear.
I may not have noticed all of your comments, I was only quoting from this one, which doesn’t mention anything else but Russia/Ukraine conflict. On the other hand, I mentioned “conflicts in general”.
And cryptographic data has nothing to do with the sanctions, the sanctions are purely monetary investment related, which also has nothing to do with intellectual investment, but LF decided to include that anyway, just so that they be “good little soldiers” and not get in any legal problems.
Good for you, these people, like yourself, have nothing to do with the Russian state, assuming so because of their race and nationality is racist.
Thanks for playing, conservative.
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Wow, good job mods! I linked the proof that he was in Russia and you guys delete it, niiiiiice.
Living in a place does not mean you have anything to do with the Russian state, assuming otherwise due to someone’s race is racist.
Later in that thread:
Please accept all of our apologies for the way this was handled. A summary of the legal advice the kernel is operating under is
If your company is on the U.S. OFAC SDN lists, subject to an OFAC sanctions program, or owned/controlled by a company on the list, our ability to collaborate with you will be subject to restrictions, and you cannot be in the MAINTAINERS file.
Anyone who wishes to can query the list here: https://sanctionssearch.ofac.treas.gov/
Which is exactly what anyone who wasn’t wanting to just snort some concentrated outrage knew was the case.
And you can argue as to if OFAC list should apply to things like this or not, but the problem is that the enforcement options for OFAC violations include ‘stomp you into the ground until you’re powder’, most people are just going to comply.
Oh hey, a reasonable comment here that actually has a decent score… These comments are wild. But given the recent… I’ll just say, conspicuously pro-Russian, turn this site seems to have taken in the run up to the election, it’s not exactly a surprise.
Also from that thread.
Again, we’re really sorry it’s come to this, but all of the Linux infrastructure and a lot of its maintainers are in the US and we can’t ignore the requirements of US law. We are hoping that this action alone will be sufficient to satisfy the US Treasury department in charge of sanctions and we won’t also have to remove any existing patches.
US law CAN’T apply on foreign ground, period. Nothing can. Just because they can bully their way around that, doesn’t mean they are right.
And it should be only fair that Israeli maintainers be removed as well.
They should also rethink their infrastructure policy and whether they still want it on US soil.
This is all wishful thinking, I know, but this just goes to show you how they have absolutely no backbone whatsoever. As if anybody is gonna touch the Linux kernel and jeopardize the safety of millions of systems. We all know that is never going to happen, but they still bent over for the US… so typical… just goes to show you how little backbone everyone has, including Linus.
Oh, and don’t get me started on the Russia/Finland history comment…
Does everyone here just not understand how international sanctions work?
As someone with a STEM degree in a STEM field, I’m consistently bummed out by how clearly silo’d my colleagues’ educations were. It is so plainly obvious as soon as you try to have a conversation with them about anything outside of their area of expertise.
And don’t bother trying to correct or teach them anything, because in their minds, they’re smarter than you, and you have nothing worthwhile to teach them.
This thread is full of software engineers with just no concept of how society functions, or even a basic understanding of the geopolitical context of any of this.
I mean, if you’re in a STEM field you really should understand how sanctions work because they matter to your work and, thus, to you.
Yeah, well… Look around
If the company is in the USA they can restrict who you colloborate with. They also can control what you export as a oftware product under ITAR/EAR rules. It is why when some encryotion work had to be done the devs crossed the border into Canada to work on development, because under USA law encryption code is a controlled export product even if opensource
But folks who work for US companies building weapons for Israel are totes okay?
It’s honestly fucking wild that an internationally developed open source project has to play by the US government’s rules when the US government is out here helping commit genocide right the fuck now.
Like, look in the fucking mirror on this why don’t you.
Maybe the better rule is that if you work for a company that produces weaponry for war you shouldn’t be allowed to contribute, period.
You want the World Bank to bail out your economy post-pandemic, you gotta accede to some tough demands
But folks who work for US companies building weapons for Israel are totes okay?
Who here said this?
Nobody directly just them pointing out the optics of the situation.
No, you are making strawman arguments and using whataboutism in an attempt to deflect.
You a bot or something? I’m not the OP.
Yes. I am a bot for not paying attention to user names and assuming that the commentor who defended the comment I replied to, was the same person that made the original comment.
Maybe the better rule is that if you work for a company that produces weaponry for war you shouldn’t be allowed to contribute, period.
This is something I can actually get behind on.
But, you, there is just one teeency weeency tiny problem with that. They spend trucks of cash on whatever they deem will give them what they want, including funding organizations that they profit from.
Wow, I didn’t know that being a Linux/open source contributor meant you don’t have to follow your country’s laws.
It’s developed internationally but devs still reside somewhere and have to abide by the rules at that place. Linux in this case being represented by an US entity means they have to follow the gov’s sanctions. If you want more or less of those, that’s where (the government) you act.
You may be amazed to learn that there aren’t many international sanctions against the USA at this time, but I imagine you could probably get into legal trouble for collaborating with Americans if you’re in, I don’t know, North Korea maybe.
What are you even trying to say here?
Do you think you’ve unraveled some massive conspiracy simply by learning about the existence of Western hegemony?
It’s crazy how the US Treasury isn’t sanctioning companies for working on US government approved contracts. /s
It would be if Blinken weren’t burying government reports proving that it legally must.
Then it would be sanctioning Israel, not defense contractors.
The genocide has such wide support in the USA community and defense companies ( irregardless of the louder minority of people protesting it)
That if there were justice, then many other people and organizations would have similar treatment and be kicked
We can’t get away from politics, or limits, but if I will point out the hypocrisy
U.S. law requires the government to cut off weapons shipments to countries that prevent the delivery of U.S.-backed humanitarian aid. Israel has been largely dependent on American bombs and other weapons in Gaza since Hamas’ Oct. 7 attacks.
Yes and? You keep arguing against things I’m not saying.
I’d be perfectly happy if we told Bibi to fuck off. But the US government isn’t going to impose sanctions on itself.
You may be amazed to learn that the reason there aren’t many international sanctions against the USA at this time is not because the USA is a beacon of peace, freedom, democracy, and national sovereignty. Because the US is very much not that.
US isn’t helping fund a genocide in Israel or anything.
Address your complaints to the government of the USA. Or, if you have the right to do so, cast a vote in the upcoming election there to prevent it taking a big step in the opposite direction from a world in which it might consider anything like similar sanctions against Israel.
“Write a stern letter to a foreign government” and “Vote against ‘very probable 101% genocide’ and for ‘proven 100% genocide’” are some weak tea, and beside the point being made.
Oh look, a bad faith argument about the upcoming election from someone who I’ve tagged for making bad faith arguments about the upcoming election. Fun.
Your particular complaints are better addressed to almighty God I suppose. So long as you don’t blame linux kernel devs for them it’s all the same to me.
You’re welcome to fork Linux at any time 👋 see ya!
It still boggles my mind why Israeli maintainers are still in the kernel 🤯.
Next up, maintainers with red pubic hair.
byeeeeeeee
What pisses me off the most about NAFOids is the absolute and constant pettiness.
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The brutal cognitive dissonance you manage to encapsulated in this comment is impressive.
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