• BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Let’s run through the recent story so people have it:

    (First on FDR, that was before 45 years of anti-communist rhetoric, which frankly turned into anti-government-policy rhetoric.)

    Jimmy Carter: Told people to conserve and got voted the fuck out.

    Bill Clinton: After successive losses Bill figured out “it’s the economy stupid”. And when you run against an incumbent (Bush senior) you have to run from the center. So that’s what he did. And he won.

    Gore: After the population hopefully warmed up with Bill Clinton, he stuck his head out left with climate change. And bam he lost the election. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!

    Obama: So guess what Obama learned? Don’t stick your head out. He ran on broad “hope”, hoping the ambiguity would be enough considering Bush’s disastrous wars. And he won.

    Hillary Clinton: After the population hopefully warmed up with Obama, she stuck her head out just a tiny itty little bit left with the Map Room to fight climate change. And guess what happened? Bam she lost. Thanks protest non-voters!

    Biden: Just like Obama learned from Gore, Biden learned from Hillary that you don’t stick your head out left. And he was running against an incumbent, so once again when you do that you run center. He’s actually been governing more from the left, but he ran center.

    And people are amazed that they don’t run an extreme left platform? Every time they stick their head out a little itsy bitsy tiny bit left they lose. And the next guy learns to go to the center to win.

    So how do you get them to move left? By giving them victories. Consistent and overwhelming victories. Because when they lose, like they’ve lost 20 years out of the last 24 years, they will go to the centre to find votes. You don’t get big steps without the small steps.

    • Tinidril@midwest.social
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      9 months ago

      Let’s try the more recent history again.

      Obama ran on “hope” but, more importantly ,“change” and won in a landslide. Then he governed from the center as a status quo technocrat. He lost a Democratic super majority and almost the presidency to a slice of white bread.

      Hillary Clinton was the most establishment centrist candidate the Democrats could have possibly run. Her campaign thought they could sweep the country by choosing a radical clown for the Republican opponent. They helped the Trump campaign get free media attention to win the primary, then they lost to the clown.

      After 4 years of the clown, the country would have elected a ham sandwich. Even so, it was looking a bit close, so Biden did what most Democrats do in a close election and leaned left, almost sounding like Bernie lite at times. You can chart his popularity through his presidency and every uptick coincides with a move to the left, and every downtick with a move to the right.

      • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Biden did what most Democrats do in a close election and leaned left

        In a close election, and when running against an incumbent, Dems go to the center. Because that’s where the voters are.

        You’re the first person I’ve ever heard say Biden leaned left.

        • AhismaMiasma@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          He certainly paid lip service to the left.

          Still waiting on any semblance of substantive policy regarding healthcare, student debt, income inequality, or labour rights.

          Remember when the rail workers tried to strike and R̶e̶a̶g̶a̶n̶ Biden told them to get back to work?

          Of course, this all pales in comparison to the giant genocide elephant in the room…

          • Tinidril@midwest.social
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            9 months ago

            If you are unaware of the massive changes the department of labor has made under Biden, then you don’t care all that much about unions. Biden has been great on labor issues.

            He has been forgiving student debt piecemeal to get around Republican obstruction, so far forgiving around 10%. It’s not what we want, but it’s also targeted to the people needing it most.

            Biden isn’t the leftist firebrand I want him to be, but he’s been way better than I anticipated. He is easily the furthest left president since at least Carter, though that’s a low bar.

            Unfortunately the most I can say on Palestine is that Trump would be a whole lot worse. Biden has been putting a lot more pressure on Netanyaho than he gets credit for, but that’s understandable given the rhetoric he uses publicly.

    • blazera@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Holy shit trying to blame hillarys loss on being too progressive. Somehow more progressive than Obama.

      • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I said itsy tiny little bit left with the map room. How many adjectives do you need? No one is saying she was far left, again see adjectives. That’s what she ran on and bam she lost the election. Thanks protest no voters!

        • treefrog@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          You really drank the Hillary/DNC kool aid if you’re still blaming protest voters in 2024.

          And the double think in your post is glaring by the way. She went a tiny bit to the left and bam she loses the election because protest voters refused to vote for her? How does this even add up?

          No she lost because she was an establishment candidate out of touch with the will of the people who ran on her privilege rather than her policies. So out of touch that she had to manipulate the primary to even get into the general. And so out of touch that rather than accepting the loss and taking responsibility for it, she shamed voters.

          • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            It was two fold why Hilary lost. Trump appealed to manufacturing class. And the left wing protest no voted.

            because protest voters refused to vote for her? How does this even add up?

            Well since you had a fun tone I’ll take a fun tone. JFC because left voters did not show up. Instead of showing up, the left voters protest no voted. She stuck her head a tiny bit left with the map room and climate change, and the left wing did not show up to vote and instead did a no vote protest.

            • treefrog@lemm.ee
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              9 months ago

              Right but the way your framing it you’re acting like she moved a little bit to the left and that was the reason that left voters didn’t vote for her.

              At least that’s the way I’m understanding what you are saying which is why I asked. I wasn’t having fun. It was an honest question so I could hope to understand your position better.

              I was having fun with my Kool-Aid comment. But that was a different paragraph.

              A whole other way to frame this is that Hillary’s nepotism and the DNC lost that election by assuming that the left owes them their vote. Rather than thinking that politicians should earn our votes, and that the DNC should listen to the their base if they want voter turn out.

              • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                You can get into whatever psychological analysis you want (and I’ll do mine), at the end of it left voters don’t show up. She moved a little bit left with map room to fight climate change, a policy that should have been important to left voters, and left voters did not show up.

                So the next candidate Biden learns he has to go to the center to find voters. This is what happens every single time. Every time. Happened with Carter & Bill Clinton, happened with Gore & Obama, happened with Hilary & Biden.

                If you or any other voter want things to go left, you have to give dems consistent and overwhelming victories.

                • treefrog@lemm.ee
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                  9 months ago

                  Right, because she didn’t move far enough to the left. That’s what I was saying about she needed to turn out her base too.

                  And as I said in my other comment I think protest voting is petty and stupid. But I think Hillary’s sense of entitlement was a huge fucking turn off to lots of people including voters on the left but also centrists.

                  So this is a situation of mutual responsibility. And blaming voters for not showing up when Hillary didn’t do her part to encourage them to show up I don’t think it’s helpful either.

                  • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    Sigh. You take small steps before big steps. You walk before you run. You stick your toes in before a big plunge. And when they do, the voters never come out. They. Never. Show. Up.

                    Never, not for Carter, not for Gore, not for Hilary.

                    What do they learn from this? The left voters never show up. Don’t bother trying to court them because they never show up. Or even stronger, you’d be an absolute fool to try to court them because they. Never. Show. Up.

                    They learn to go to the center to find voters. And guess fucking what? Those voters show up. So guess fucking what? That’s where they go. Every. Single. Time.

                    Mutual responsibility? Dems have tried. And they’ve paid with losses. Every. Single. Time. So they go to the center to find votes. Waiting for some big left platform is not going to work. Because dems stick their toes left and lose. See all the phrases again, walk before you run. Non-voters holding out like it’s a Mexican standoff when it’s not, the Dems see they just have to go to the center instead every time they lose.

    • ramble81@lemm.ee
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      9 months ago

      And you end up with the stupid idealist 3rd party voters that think “we’ll send a message with how we vote!” (Or don’t vote) not realizing the true impact they’re causing and the message it sends by having to go back to the center (which inches right more and more each time).

      3rd party does have a place, but not right now with how screwed up things are.

      • blazera@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Its forever going to be “not right now” for you, so we’re not waiting anymore, its only going to happen if we make it right now.

        • ramble81@lemm.ee
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          9 months ago

          No, no it’s not. And if Trump is elected again, it’s on anyone who things as much.

          • blazera@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Its on people pushing a candidate they dont even like. Happened with hillary, its happening again with genocide joe. Let us support progressive candidates we like

        • Neato@ttrpg.network
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          9 months ago

          And by “make it happen” you mean help get Trump elected and usher in a fascist dictatorship.

          • blazera@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            Maybe one day you’ll entertain the notion that disregarding progressive voters and pushing a candidate you dont like could be to blame for trump winning, like in 2016.

            • Neato@ttrpg.network
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              9 months ago

              I’m sorry our bloc is too small to be properly represented on the national stage.

    • Phegan@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Revisionist history. To pretend like Hillary went slightly left and Gore didn’t have the election stolen from him is disingenuous at best.

      • doctordevice@lemmy.ca
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        9 months ago

        They claim Hillary lost because she went a little left and it is the fault of… left wing voters? Hmm.

        • Got_Bent@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          I’m of the opinion that Hillary lost because of the blatant super delegate shenanigans within the DNC. I know I was LIVID. However, I wasn’t one of the folks who were so livid that they protest voted third party. I held my nose, suppressed my gag reflex, and voted for Hillary, though I really didn’t want to.

      • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        I said Hilary went an itsy bitsy teeny weeny bit left with the map room to fight climate change. That’s what she did. And she lost. Thanks protest non voters!

        Did we have President Gore? No we did not. We can talk all day about this or that, but we did not have President Gore. Thanks 3rd party protest voters!

        • Refurbished Refurbisher@lemmy.sdf.org
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          9 months ago

          Hillary lost because she was a corrupt, out of touch (Pokemon go to the polls), unlikable piece of shit who stole the primary from Bernie (as shown by the John Podesta email leaks). She also used the “pied piper” strategy to help Trump win the RNC primary because she thought he was the most beatable candidate. Voters didn’t even know she wanted to fight climate change because she never talked about it. She also participated hardcore in voter shaming (which is also what you’re doing) and ran a pro-corporate, right wing campaign against Trump in the general. No shit, she lost, especially in the Rust Belt, which Bernie was doing well in according to polls.

          Al Gore lost because the Republican party refused to count several votes in Florida, claiming that hanging and dented chads were not valid. It was later found with a recount that Gore won that election.

          When leftist voters have to choose between corporate right and corporate right, they will sit out, protest vote, or begrudgingly vote for the Democrat due to a lack of a better option. Voter shaming is extremely toxic and will actively repel leftist voters.

          Voters need something to vote for, not against.

          • HakFoo@lemmy.sdf.org
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            9 months ago

            Whatever else you can say, Hillary was not channeling a lot of enthusiasm outside of a very narrow group.

            It felt like there were weeks in peak campaign season where she wasn’t touring or making speeches. What even was her signature issue? (Considering how she was associated with the abortive attempts towards universal health care during Bill’s term, that would have been a sensible focus, but I don’t recall it mentioned once)

            The whole campaign reeked of “play to not lose” rather than “play to win”. She assumed she was the annointed favourite, guaranteed the win, and that’s not really going to excite uncommitted voters. Bernie, at least, generated buzz.

        • Num10ck@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          i see how it fits your theory but her leftness wasnt why people didn’t vote for her. she didnt bother campaigning in the states that mattered and she acted entitled, and Bernie Sanders stole hearts while she stole DNC. etc etc.

          • Tinidril@midwest.social
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            9 months ago

            She did do some campaigning early in those states. It turned out that the more they saw of her, the less they liked her. Her campaign kept her out of those states because she was a liability to her own campaign. Trump ran on fighting for average Americans. (Bullshit of course). Hillary ran on scolding the candidate offering change.

    • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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      9 months ago

      The DNC pursued a policy of progressive policy to counter Bush.

      Obama won and the party immediately began shifting right. Eight years of pulling away from progressive policy.

      And then Trump won, at which point you saw a leftist presence being entertained again by his midterms.

      So to answer your final question: The record shows victories appear to cause the Democratic Party to move right. Often argued as a result or consequence of any implemented leftist policy. Backlash, if you will, but still.

      • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Obama won and the party immediately began shifting right. Eight years of pulling away from progressive policy.

        Guess how many years Obama had a Dem House of Representatives and Dem Senate? 2 years. Not 8. Only 2. That’s when we got the ACA though.

        Contrary to how many people talk the president is not a King. The president does not pass laws, Congress does. And Dems need control of all 3 (presidency, house of reps, and Senate) to pass much of anything. So when the lose control, like they lost control for 6 years of Obama’s presidency, they have to reach across the aisle. Do you remember what happened? The GOP shut down the government under Obama.

        Obama had 1 victory and then 3 losses. 1 victory for 2 years and then 3 losses for 6 of his years.

        You want them to not reach across the aisle? Then give Dems victories in all 3 of house of reps, Senate, and presidency.

        (Btw guess how much the Dems have had all 3. They have had it for 4 years out of the last 24 years. That’s right. They basically never have it. Want to include Bill Clinton? Then it’s 6 years of the last 32 years. What to go back further? Then it’s 6 years of the last 44 years. Read that again: 6 years out of the last 44 fucking years. And if you want filibuster proof majority, them it’s 4 MONTHS of the last 44 years. Not 4 years, 4 MONTHS of the last 44 years. You need to readjust what you think are victories.)

      • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Take that one however far center or right you want to, the point is that’s what he had to do to find votes (after successive Dem losses).

          • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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            9 months ago

            At the end of the day, votes is what wins elections. He had to go to the center (or as the other guy thinks, the right) to find votes.

            • treefrog@lemm.ee
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              9 months ago

              To find funding from oligarchs for campaigning in order to get votes.

              Nothing has a single cause and condition.

              Another way to look at it is that Clinton sold out. A third is that he was being pragmatic.

              Either way moving to the center didn’t win him votes with centrist voters as much as it allowed him to campaign effectively against an incumbent that was heavily backed by corporate finances.

              It wasn’t being centrist that won over voters in other words. It was being cenrist that won over oligarchs.

              • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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                9 months ago

                We’re going to have to disagree.

                I think it was to find voters. At the end of the election they count votes, not donations. If all these left wing voters people that I see on this platform were to actually vote, then wow that would have an effect. But instead they think protest 3rd party or protest no-voting works, when it doesn’t. All these supposed informed, logical voters people that are just waiting in the wind for that left platform and then they’ll vote. Donations don’t sway these people, they want the big left platform, which won’t appear because they don’t show up and vote.

                So what can voters do? Vote for the dems. If you want things to go left, then vote and give dems consistent and overwhelming victories.

                • treefrog@lemm.ee
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                  9 months ago

                  I mean I’m voting for Biden Don’t get me wrong. And I think protest voting is a petty act of rebellion that doesn’t really help.

                  But I also think acting like your entitled to votes rather than needing to spend effort turning out your base, is also a wrong view.

                  I guess I’m saying both Hillary and protest voters caused what happened in 2016. As well as the DNC betting on an establishment candidate when the pulse of the country was obviously sick of that shit.

                  • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
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                    9 months ago

                    Entitled? They try to move a little bit left and they fucking lose. They aren’t going to go further left lol. What’s that definition of insanity? Doing the same thing and expecting different results lol. In this case it’s doubling down and expecting different results - not going to happen. They’re going to go to the center to get those votes.