To be completely fair they lived in a world where there actually were real differences between the races. In our world racism is silly because there aren’t any actually relevant differences between the races, but the differences between elves, men, and dwarves are very real in middle earth. Not enough to pull everyone over a comb (to use a swedish proverb), but at least there’s some substance to it.
I thought the latest research was pointing more toward homogenisation of the species through interbreeding rather than strictly competition or other factors.
Not necessarily. Elves and Humans would be classified as being part of the same genus of species, in this case homo, and members of the same genus can sometimes breed together under abnormal circumstances.
This is how you get ligers, a cross between a lion and a tiger. Both different species, but part of the panthera genus. Or mules, also a cross between two species, but part of the equus genus.
Would you still say that if you knew Tolkien based elves on early “true” Christians, dwarves on Jews, Western men on Europe as a whole and their decline a metaphor for growing secularism, and the Eastern/Southern men given to evil on brown people who, even worse, aren’t Christian?
I am quite sure he based them on stereotypical views that were prevalent during his times and not actual people. Still he showed that these perceived differences come from their internal worst traits manifesting in their views on others and can be overcome for the good of all.
You are not wrong but nuance in reading is important.
Those are some nice claims, got any sources for them?
If your claims are true, it would be a quite kind depiction of stereotypical jews for the times. Dwarves were a very hardy and highly skilled people, who were quite generous with their craft. Almost the only bad traits they had were because of the incredibly powerful magic rings Sauron gave them, which were designed corrupt them and make them his slaves. They almost fully resisted that corruption, just becoming greedy and isolationist instead.
The story transpires in a world where there are actually good gods that help people and an evil god (Morgoth, and later demigod-ish Sauron) that is trying to corrupt and rule the world. I don’t think the decline of Men is a metaphor for growing secularism (Tolkien was famously a BIG hater of metaphor and allegory as story telling devices) as much as it is a direct consequence of their in-universe growing secularism and the same happening earlier in the world.
“Eastern/Southern men given to evil on brown people” What do you mean? The Eastern/Southern men are the brown people. The reality of it is that the story is one of war, and we’re seeing it told from people on one side of the war. That means we’re gonna get mainly negative views on the other side. Even so, the first time we see a Man of Harad in the books, the first thought we’re given from one of the characters is Sam thinking this about him:
He was glad that he could not see the dead face. He wondered what the man’s name was and where he came from; and if he was really evil of heart, or what lies or threats had led him on the long march from his home; and if he would not really rather have stayed there in peace.”
This is to me a nod towards the Men of Harad (at least, likely all the easterlings) not actually being evil but only being decieved by Sauron (the Deciever).
In general, Tolkien was born in 1892. He likely wasn’t a paragon of equality, but i also don’t think he portrays any kind of racism or xenophobia if you look past the very surface level of his writings.
“No, in fact Tolkien said the exact opposite. Jews are based on dwarves.”
See how that works when you don’t actually provide a source? To be honest, I have no idea if Tolkien based the races of Middle Earth on human peoples, and would’ve liked to learn if he did. But instead of actually teaching me something, I’m left here with intellectual blue balls, so thank you for a wonderful start to Locktober.
Read a book, dork. Or spend five seconds on Google or your search engine of choice researching something there is quite a lot of commentary on, especially in regards to Jewish stereotypes and the Dwarven language.
To be completely fair they lived in a world where there actually were real differences between the races. In our world racism is silly because there aren’t any actually relevant differences between the races, but the differences between elves, men, and dwarves are very real in middle earth. Not enough to pull everyone over a comb (to use a swedish proverb), but at least there’s some substance to it.
There used to be different types of people on earth but we likely killed them all cause of racism 😞
Imagine if we still had other humanoids walking around
I thought the latest research was pointing more toward homogenisation of the species through interbreeding rather than strictly competition or other factors.
OK so I was way off. This has info I was thinking of.
It’d be more accurate to call them species. Elves are specist.
But they can still produce offspring with humans (e.g. Elrond is half-elven), which is usually what defines a species.
Not necessarily. Elves and Humans would be classified as being part of the same genus of species, in this case homo, and members of the same genus can sometimes breed together under abnormal circumstances.
This is how you get ligers, a cross between a lion and a tiger. Both different species, but part of the panthera genus. Or mules, also a cross between two species, but part of the equus genus.
Would you still say that if you knew Tolkien based elves on early “true” Christians, dwarves on Jews, Western men on Europe as a whole and their decline a metaphor for growing secularism, and the Eastern/Southern men given to evil on brown people who, even worse, aren’t Christian?
Because he did.
I am quite sure he based them on stereotypical views that were prevalent during his times and not actual people. Still he showed that these perceived differences come from their internal worst traits manifesting in their views on others and can be overcome for the good of all.
You are not wrong but nuance in reading is important.
Those are some nice claims, got any sources for them?
If your claims are true, it would be a quite kind depiction of stereotypical jews for the times. Dwarves were a very hardy and highly skilled people, who were quite generous with their craft. Almost the only bad traits they had were because of the incredibly powerful magic rings Sauron gave them, which were designed corrupt them and make them his slaves. They almost fully resisted that corruption, just becoming greedy and isolationist instead.
The story transpires in a world where there are actually good gods that help people and an evil god (Morgoth, and later demigod-ish Sauron) that is trying to corrupt and rule the world. I don’t think the decline of Men is a metaphor for growing secularism (Tolkien was famously a BIG hater of metaphor and allegory as story telling devices) as much as it is a direct consequence of their in-universe growing secularism and the same happening earlier in the world.
“Eastern/Southern men given to evil on brown people” What do you mean? The Eastern/Southern men are the brown people. The reality of it is that the story is one of war, and we’re seeing it told from people on one side of the war. That means we’re gonna get mainly negative views on the other side. Even so, the first time we see a Man of Harad in the books, the first thought we’re given from one of the characters is Sam thinking this about him:
This is to me a nod towards the Men of Harad (at least, likely all the easterlings) not actually being evil but only being decieved by Sauron (the Deciever).
In general, Tolkien was born in 1892. He likely wasn’t a paragon of equality, but i also don’t think he portrays any kind of racism or xenophobia if you look past the very surface level of his writings.
Sure bud.
Source: LotR, Tolkien’s statements on the matter, basic literacy.
“No, in fact Tolkien said the exact opposite. Jews are based on dwarves.”
See how that works when you don’t actually provide a source? To be honest, I have no idea if Tolkien based the races of Middle Earth on human peoples, and would’ve liked to learn if he did. But instead of actually teaching me something, I’m left here with intellectual blue balls, so thank you for a wonderful start to Locktober.
Read a book, dork. Or spend five seconds on Google or your search engine of choice researching something there is quite a lot of commentary on, especially in regards to Jewish stereotypes and the Dwarven language.
Which book?