I’ve been thinking about martial arts and how really it is useful these days since a lot of places will have criminals hiding firearms or in the U.S. some states have conceal carry.
Whilst it contains discipline and it is enjoyable to train in a club for, say Karate, I just think it might not be that useful in places where firearms are commonly held, all it really takes is for someone to take safety off, aim, pew pew and that’s it.
I suppose I probably get this thinking from kung fu where it’s seen more of an art form then actually being a serious bone breaking form of combat
When faced with a firearm or a knife, any self respecting martial artist will tell you the one technique that will save your life.
Running the fuck away and or taking cover.
When it comes to hand to hand combat, understanding the dynamics of how to protect yourself and control the opposer like in Jiu Jitsu is very useful and can also potentially save your life.
But no, if they have a weapon of any kind, get the fuck out of there.
Agreed. Good instructors tell you to run if you can, and teach you to fight if you have to.
If you want something that could actually be useful in real-life situations, pick up running.
The science on how humans survived through some seriously apex predators tags this as the reason. We evolved to run, the Usain Bolts of the world not being rare back in the day, which is why we are even here, and now we’ve de-volved into a sedentary society where Usain Bolt is the only one.
It was never about our speed, it was about our endurance and persistence. There’s no point in history where we were the fastest creature in the local food chain, a deer or Buffalo was going to sprint faster than us, but when they had to stop to cool off or recover from the fast burn of energy, we were right there, right behind them, still coming.
It’s true we’re more like the T1000 from T2 than usain bolt. Iirc our endurance on land is unsurpassed by any other mammal
Usain Bolt was faster than the hundreds of billions of people that came before him. He set a world record that still hasn’t been broken.
I begun judo a few weeks ago. The teacher was clear: it may not be useful in actual fight, but we don’t fight often in the real life. But it’s great for your body, spirit and it will teach you how to fall without hurting yourself. And these things are way more useful than self defense.
Useful for what?
As a kind of joke, look at these senior citizen doing tai chi in the park, while many 80 years old can’t walk without a cane. Looks like pretty useful.
Judo or Aïkido will teach you how to fall, which may save you a visit to the ER if you slip on the street, and pretty useful again.
It’s also a fun way to exercise and stay in shape, so again, it’s useful
tai chi in the park, while many 80 years old can’t walk without a cane.
As an aside, get someone to show you what they’re really doing when they’re doing Tai Chi. The muscle memory they learn is - when sped up - brutal and painful to others. It’s great how they hide it in a dancy movement class for blue-haired park-goers.
I’ve also met Fumio Demura at a seminar, and he comes across as just an old guy who wants to go fishing when he’s not teaching us to be damaging – so while they may look old and slow, there’s more going on.
Yeah people who don’t practice Tai Chi usually don’t realize that most of those movements they’re doing out there are slowed and exaggerated joint locks and throws. It is a combat training routine used as exercise.
op mentioned the context is situations where firearms are used. so pretty sure they meant useful as a self defense method and not useful as a way of exercise
Get good enough and just dodge the bullets
That was some hilarious bullet dodging
Aside from how problematic the film is, I loved this as a kid!
Yes, but not for what you may think. Ritualized shouting and flailing is cathartic and great cardio. And when you’re doing it in a regular group, you don’t look as dorky (see: Line Dancing) and peer pressure will influence you to stick with it – and that’s the biggest failure mode of any workout plan.
Also, stretching is neat. Sometimes there’s meditation. Always there’s making noise and angry faces.
Somewhere, in there, you may learn two things: how to dodge something coming at you; and that you should always try to flee if you can, flee if you almost can, or negatively reinforce the person hurting you until they stop and then you can flee. The cardio helps with the fleeing.
And I can’t under-state the utility in fleeing. I’ve done the hi-ya, twirled a stick, played shooty-pow-pow and rat-a-tat; and, still, fleeing is the option with the best outcome.
all of the “real” Martial arts from back before guns were about using weapons. those aren’t really practiced as much anymore because they’re all useless in the face of firearms anyway. why spend years training with a knife when the same time could be spent training with a gun. if combat effectiveness is your goal then you need to learn modern combat techniques.
that said, there’s plenty to be learned from it, and it’s not like it can’t help you in a fight. but as another commenter said, the real way to win every fight is by avoiding them. so really the best thing to learn is de-escalation and recognizing danger.
If you have a history of getting into fights, then yes it’s useful. Otherwise you’ll basically never use it. However there are plenty of benefits even if you never use it.
- Strength
- Flexibility
- Knowing that you’re going to get hurt even if you win the fight
- Etc
Exactly. Martial arts will make you live longer, not because you can kick ass in a fight, but because it is generally a great way to maintain cardiovascular health.
If need to train for an unarmed fight, I’d personally suggest the 400m sprint.
What is the “meme” of the 400m sprint (best MA discipline btw), I’ve seen it popping up everywhere the past couple of weeks haha
I think it has applications, none of them involving a street fight or confrontation. I dodged a fist coming my way from a partner once. Most of the time I use it to take blows properly and redirect aggressive people with whom I work. I want to add with all of my knowledge, almost everything I know would be useless against someone much larger than me.
Define useful.
Will any martial art make it a good idea to engage in a street fight, ever? Will any martial art prevent you from getting shot, stabbed, or ganged up on and beaten? No. Your best bet is situational awareness and a keen sense of GTFO.
However, martial arts are physical activities. They involve precise movements, and allow you a safe space to build conditioning. All of that means that, even if the techniques of the specific art you practice are fundamentally useless in the situation, you’re going to be just better able to use your body effectively. Hopefully to run.
I’d say the biggest thing a martial art has over a traditional sport is conditioning yourself to take a proper hit. Beyond any technique, the first hit is usually the deciding hit in a street fight. Knowing what it’s like to be hit, and being able to not immediately crumble, go further than any technique.
My trainer always told me, even after years of training, that the first choice should always be running away instead of engaging.
Useful for what?
You address a couple of things, so I’ll try to cover them in the order your post does.
Firearms and concealed carry don’t really have anything to do with hand to hand. You aren’t going to do much training in martial arts that specifically addresses firearms just because it’s not necessary. If you’re close enough to engage someone with a firearm, you’d use the same methodology to attempt to negate the firearm as you would any weapon of a similar size. If you aren’t inside ten feet and a gun is already pointed at you, you’re fucked. If you’re inside about 20 feet, and the firearm isn’t drawn, they’re fucked if you can apply any control to it at all because they won’t get drawn and fire in the time you can close distance as long as you’re in decent shape.
Doesn’t matter if it’s concealed or open carry tbh. If anything, a gun is easier to control than a knife, but that’s a tangent that’s not applicable here.
For me, and I’ve been shooting since I was maybe elevenish, I’m still not going to draw, remove safety and shoot fast enough to ensure a stop on someone inside of about twenty feet if they’re already primed to move. You might get the fast draw trick shooters that could, but they won’t be doing it from concealed carry.
Besides, you see a weapon of any kind, number one goal is escape, not fighting. The only reason you’d engage with a firearm user is if you can’t escape. Same with a knife, a stick, whatever. Fighting isn’t the goal, you don’t want to be fucking around trying to “win”. You do the bare minimum to gtfo.
Seriously, it’s not a factor in the practicality of martial arts.
Where martial arts is useful for the average person that’s maybe gong to use the training in self defense once or twice in their entire life is in being prepared for trouble. You train, and it’s good exercise. You develop a sense of how your body works in motion related to another person. You learn how to react to pressure (with a caveat I’ll cover in a bit). You learn how to take hits, how to judge distance and how to close distance. And that is true for any training that isn’t just katas, even systems like aikido or judo that aren’t meant to be self defense as a primary focus.
Now, the caveat to that is sparring. If you never, ever do any training with a partner that’s resisting your effort, it’s just fun exercise. That’s where aikido usually fails, the near total lack of actual resistance while training with a partner. But the basic techniques if you do resistant training and toss the stuff that doesn’t work are literally bone breaking even with aikido, and it’s as gentle as it gets.
The problem with kung fu, karate, or any traditional martial art is the training not including live, resistant sparring. Even systems like mma that’s had the ineffective stuff removed, if you don’t train against someone that’s working against you in a realistic way, it’s just fun exercise. But there are “styles” of pretty much all of the name checked systems that feature live sparring.
But, in real world scenarios, if you do that training, if you spend the time repeating a technique against a resistive partner, you won’t have to try and use it. You’ll just react. And that’s how martial arts are useful in self defense scenarios. Instead of having to see an attack, decide what to do against it, then make the attempt, you detect the incoming attack, and you’re responding without any conscious decision. You basically taught yourself a trick the same way Pavlov taught the dogs to drool to a bell. That’s a gross oversimplification, but it’s good enough for this.
Now, it takes time to reach that automatical response. That time also takes money most of the time (unless you know someone willing to train you for free, and good luck with that). So whether or not you want to invest that time solely for the chance you might need it, that’s another tangent.
But, if you do choose to train, that’s why it helps to get something other than just the fighting out of it. The fitness, the fun, the camaraderie, the self discipline, the self awareness, the pain tolerance, there’s so much you can get out of it, if you’re willing to put in the resources.
Now, the post references specific “arts”. But it doesn’t have to be traditional arts at all, or even eastern traditional arts. You can get all the same benefits from boxing, wrestling, HEMA, or any of the arts that developed outside of asia. And we’ve got mma now that focuses on full contact fighting, and has whittled away at the stuff that’s not effective for full contact sport fighting, which makes it pretty damn good for self defense overall.
Again, guns just aren’t a relevant factor in choosing to learn martial arts or not. Even melee weapons aren’t. The primary advice you get, even when training to counter weapons, is to not let yourself get into that fight in the first place. You run first, you try to deescalate, you keep situational awareness to hopefully never even need to run, any of the things that could avoid being close enough to the weapon to have to control it at all.
But, all of that is helped by training. Situational awareness itself takes time to develop.
And, yes, I’m kinda enthusiastic about the subject lol. But, as much as I love/loved martial arts, it isn’t for everyone. It isn’t necessary for daily life for the average person. It’s like an insurance policy where you pay in now, in the hope that if something happens later, you’ll have it covered.
As an example, me and my best friend are the same age. He has never been in a fight as an adult, never been mugged, attacked, or even threatened with something like that. Me? I can’t actually remember how many fights I’ve been in, but I was a bouncer for a little over a decade, and worked some really bad areas as a nurse’s assistant. If I hadn’t been doing those jobs, and I discount any violence because of them, I would only have maybe a dozen fights have happened.
Is that range of self defense occurrence worth the resources? It was for me, but it might not be for someone else.
Military, police, security and intelligence operatives train in it for a reason. You’re right that it’s not very practical or necessary for the average person. And for those who do need it, it’s an option of absolute last resort and desperation. Running away, if possible, is the wiser choice. But, it can make the difference in a life or death situation. Someone who knows how to fight and has practice doing it has a big advantage over someone who doesn’t.
Exercise: And if you find martial arts fun and a really good workout, more power to you. I think for many people, however, there are less injury-prone ways to get a good workout.
incorrect. we train in combatives.
Similar. but different. the differences are subtle and yet also very important. Like don’t-fucking-die important.
Settle down, Dwight. Combatives are based on martial arts. You’re being pedantic over semantics. I also already mentioned how important they are for some folks.
Actually, what you call Martial Arts came from what would be called today “Combatives”.
Martial was another way of saying “Military”. We call it “combatives” so nobody confuses what we’re teaching you to do with “Sport” or “competition” Martial arts- where the goal isn’t to kill your opponent in the most efficient means possible.
While there are only so many ways to move the human body, that distinction is rather important. Because you fight like you train.
As a rule of thumb 5 years of martial arts is equal to a knief. If the knief user gets 30 minutes of knief fight training that goes up to 10 years. you can train for years on a kneif. if you expect to be in a weabons free fight martial arts are better than nothing but you should be looking to not be in a fight, or if you must get yourself an advantage. If you worry about a gun fight than guns and training to use them is relatively cheap. Or as others say it isn’t hard for most people to not get in a fight.
The media plays up gun violence but it isn’t that common. You should worry about cars or cancer not guns.
Yes, it is useful because it make your body better.
Let’s give an example: Assume you are in the shootout. You have the gun, so they are. You are quick reflect because you are trained, which make you moving and shoting better than those weeb on high.
Another example: You hear a gun shot. You run for 2km without breaking the sweat. Because you are training to enduring and stamia daily, you can run for a while without tired.
But I think, reflexing, enduring and stamia are most useful when you are in danger. Just act fast, and run the hell out of danger.
I had a stroke while reading this
Maybe you need to learn martial arts
This is a difficult question.
If you’re a bouncer, then yeah, mixed martial arts is definitely useful (e…g., something like both muay thai and Brazilian juijitsu). For a typical person that’s unlikely to ever need to defend their life, probably not.
As far as which martial art you should take, if you’re going to take one… It depends on what you want. If you want a physical activity that doesn’t have to be practical, then take up something like kyudo, kenjutsu, or aikido. If you want something that’s practical, then look into juijitsu and things based more in grappling. If you seriously worry about getting into a confrontation with someone that’s armed, then look up Shiv Works, and see what they have in your area.
A concealed carry permit can be useful, yes, but it’s very, very situational, and requires practice. Moreover, ever single bullet you fire outside of a range has to be accounted for.
I second Cabbage. RUNNING will more reliably save your life than any amount of combat training. But also, situational awareness. Most incidents can be easily avoided simply by paying attention to what’s around you and not putting yourself in that sketchy situation to begin with.
If you’re a bouncer, then yeah, mixed martial arts is definitely useful (e…g., something like both muay thai and Brazilian juijitsu). For a typical person that’s unlikely to ever need to defend their life, probably not.
NO.*
competition martial arts have rules. Rules that you abide by and train to follow. and inevetibably, training to fight inside these rules will invariably leave you open to certain kinds of attack, and to miss exploiting openings in the other guy. Yes. This includes MMA. You can tell that people in MMA follow these rules because nobody is biting the other dude’s balls off. or twisting them off, or generally kicking to the groin. (groin strikes were originally allowed, but then banned in UFC, for example. Too many crushed testes)
and for the record, if it’s you or them… yeah. get nibbly. You also don’t see people snapping necks or stomping skulls after a toss. It’s very rare for any kind of combat sport organization to allow things that will, you know, kill their competitors.
If you want to train for self defense… train for self defense.
*Disclaimer: Muay Thai wasn’t always a competition thing. the OG Muay Thai will absolutely fuck an asshole up. most martial arts were originally military training, and if you can get training on THAT, yeah, that’ll be fine. in the US, you’re never gonna see that, though.
Again. just to reiterate. You’re best off not getting in the situation, and that’s best avoided by maintaining awareness of what’s around you. You’re second-best off running the fuck away. Constructive Cowardice is nothing to be ashamed of- it will save your life. but, if it comes to it, and it’s you or them, don’t fight fair. Fair is how you die.
A bouncer isn’t usually going to be fighting to survive; they’re throwing some dude the fuck out of a venue, or subduing them until cops show up.
As far as my comment about Shiv Works - I stand by that 100%. Look them up. They train with bare hands, knives, and guns (firing non-lethal training munitions), and in awkward spaces (such as you might experience in a car jacking).
Any discipline that forces you to act while under pressure is going to improve your odds if you end up in a situation where fighting is your only real option. If you get sucked-punched on a subway, experience in e.g. boxing is going to be far, far better than nothing at all, despite the fact that boxing has rules. IDPA/USPSA will not, contrary to claims, get you kilt in da streets, because practice moving and shooting is better than not.
The idea that there’s a real distinction between self-defense and martial arts in general is nonsense. If you’re good in MMA, this is going to translate almost 1:1 to self defense. Here’s the blunt truth: most of the people that are going to attack a person have a LOT of experience fighting. If you want to defend yourself, you’re going to need to give yourself a lot of the same experiences, even if it’s in a more controlled setting, and “self-defense” classes aren’t going to do that.
And, BTW, I know a guy that teaches wu shu (Eagle Claw, I think?) that also works as a bouncer. He is very, very effective, and uses the things he teaches as a bouncer. He’s small–like, 5’5", 150#–and he punches well above his weight.
So, Road House isn’t realistic. bouncers (and security guards in general,) have already lost once they go hands on.
And yes, you bet your ass they’re fighting to survive.
Nobody fucks around when one mistake sends you to the ER or worse, fucking dead. Every time you go hands on, there’s always a chance some one pulls a knife or gun and ends you, maybe also everyone around you.
By the time you’re in a fight, you’ve lost control, you’ve already lost. Bouncers and guards are generally not armed in any capacity and rely instead on soft skills to descalate, and again, reacting before it gets to that point.
Further, that’s not self defense. the most useful self defense skill you can have is paying attention and not getting into a situation. The second most useful self defense skill is running away.
Uh. I know a whole bunch of people that have bounced at multiple clubs in Chicago. I know one guy that was loss prevention at a store in Chicago that used to love chasing people down, because he enjoys that shit.
Tell yourself that if you want to, but the truth is that bouncers are going to have to know how to fight to at least some degree, because they’re going to end up in fights.
I know a whole bunch of people that have bounced at multiple clubs in Chicago
that used to love chasing people down
Did you ask them if they got fired for being a liability nightmare? Or for driving customers away?
Cuz, I don’t know any corporate LP that would tolerate that behavior, neither do I know any owners/managers of bars, strip clubs or whatever, that would tolerate aggressive behavior.
Liability is a bitch, and the cost of one fuck up getting someone hurt is way more expensive than the loss due to shoplifting.
In a bar, you’re interacting with patrons, people you want to come back, and spend loads of money. Fights breaking out is not conducive to that; and one of the great ways to lose your liquor license is to have too many calls to police. And yes, they will be calling the police any time they have to go hands on- otherwise the subject could come back and ding your staff for assault. Remember, liability is a bitch.
Oh. By the way, this is my job. I’m a manager for contract security.
Tell yourself that if you want to, but the truth is that bouncers are going to have to know how to fight to at least some degree, because they’re going to end up in fights.
Knowing how to fight is one thing. And you’re right, it’s almost inevitable, at least across a long career.
Doesn’t change the fact that when a fight breaks out it’s almost always avoidable, and in every single interaction I’ve studied (over thousands, this is my job.) there were critical points where things could have been done differently, where a fight could have been averted.
It’s not easy and people make mistakes, but the kinds of guys that go looking for fights? Yeah. Liability is a bitch and even if the manager likes it, their insurance company will drop them like a sack of rancid potatoes.
The managers almost certainly don’t like it, though, because usually they’re interacting with paying customers, and ruining other customer’s nights. Everyone is better off handling the situation through soft skills rather than hard skills.
Yes, absolutely! Mostly for exercise and mental health though.
For more practical styles, look at jiu jitsu, Muay Thai, MMA, and/or krav maga. Look for a teacher who has fought professionally or otherwise has practical experience. There are a lot of bullshitters out there who will happily take your money.
Also, keep in mind you get out of it what you put into it effort wise.
