Article I Section 8 Clause 15 Calling Militias
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
I have no idea how the Constitution, which is so clear about the use of militia, has morphed into this fucked up 2A gunfucker bullshit.
Read “insurrections” as slave revolts and you can get a real sense of what the 2a was for.
I actually know this one. Federalist no 46 by James Madison. Not arguing against or for it, I just probably know what your fucked up 2a gunfuckers are referring to. either that or John Locke.
“Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.”
Yes, because the middle east never happened.
Or Vietnam, post war Japan/Germany, the Philippines, the civil war & Wild West, any native American tribe etc.
The issue is about endurance. Are you okay with losing the majority of battles and having x10 the casualties? Not to mention all the left over bombs and chemicals causing deformations long after. A philosopher once said everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face.
First time I heard anyone call Mike a philosopher.
When he’s right he is right.
Are you okay with losing the majority of battles and having x10 the casualties?
The thing is that having 10x the casualties tends to create more fighters.
This is why Israel needs to commit total genocide in order to “win” in Gaza and the West Bank. Every time they kill a legitimate Palestinian fighter–versus an uninvolved civilian–they’re killing someone that had a family, and friends, people that knew the person, people that loved the person, had probably heard about the injustices (real or perceived; mostly real in the case of Palestinians) from them, and knew why they were taking up arms. These people don’t end up being cowed by the violence. Then you add in the people who have their whole families killed by indiscriminate bombing, and no longer feel like they have anything to lose except their shackles.
We know this already. We’ve known this since WWII. The Axis and Allies both through that bombing civilian population centers–London for the Axis, Dresden for the Allies–would break the will of the people, but instead it hardened them. The concept of total war and mass casualties simply Does. Not. Work.
You can’t win wars like this through military force alone, unless you’re willing to commit total genocide.
The thing is that having 10x the casualties tends to create more fighters.
Until it doesn’t. Case in point is that large empires exist. Greece has the 300 story, yet were part of Rome and The Ottomans. China has Tibet. US has native lands. I get your point but freedom fighters depend on sponsorship (Haiti bring an exception) and they do exhaust. Still my point is that super powers can be defeated, its just at a very high cost.
Now, try a swarm of armed drones.
Because if Ukraine has taught us anything, it’s that drones are definitely only limited to large and advanced military powers. There’s no way a civilian would ever be able to make something like that
Ukraine isn’t fighting the bulk of their war with drones, so it isn’t really an appropriate comparison. One of the main reasons they’re still in the fight is the plethora of highly advanced munitions that have been provided to them by NATO members. Lastly, drone warfare has become less and less effective over the last year against Russia. There are lots of countermeasures that can be implemented to take out drones. Hell, if you jam radio signals (which is easy to do), remote controlled drones become virtually useless outside of preprogrammed kamikaze tactics.
Just to clarify, I don’t say that to discredit them being a viable and deadly weapon in guerilla warfare. They’re very effective in certain situations and quite dangerous. Just pointing out they’re not the end-all-be-all of modern warfare.
I honestly don’t know how well the US military would actually defend against a civil war. If it’s guerilla then they can’t just bomb the enemy.
They got drones.
Lmao. “Can’t just bomb the enemy”. Someone hasn’t been paying attention.
The guy who lives next door might be that enemy…you would be collateral damage.
That’s an imperial war where local knowledge is extremely limited and your relying on sympathetic locals to let you know the terrain and who the enemy are. If that sympathetic population is low like in Afghanistan or Vietnam then you’ll walk into every ambush and never root out the enemy. In this environment guerilla war with small arms can work
If tyrrany comes to the u.s. though it’ll come with at least 30% support if not more, ironically most likely by the 2a nuts. They’ll happily point out every enemy of the state on there block and warn you about every ambush, hell they’ll probably shoot them for you.
No, no, see it was the right of private gun ownership in Afghanistan. Just the guns nothing else necessary. And, by the way, “we could be like Afghanistan “ is actually a very good argument and not at all an admission.
\s
What you just described makes it easier to control a country…they don’t look like us, they didn’t sound like us, and they didn’t dress like us…now try that shit with people who do. A civil war in the US would not end well for anyone.
and your relying on sympathetic locals
This would also be true of a guerilla civil war in the US though. You’d be relying on locals–people that had probably had friends and families killed by gov’t military operations and indiscriminate bombing–to help you root out insurrectionists.
Would a large number of 2A supporters be in favor of tyranny as long at it had an ® next to it? Sure. Certainly not all of us though.
Yeah this is similar to what I always tell these idiots. "You all know the government has tanks right. How many tanks y’all got? Three Broncos, an F-1f0, and a tractor? I’m sure those will hold up just fine to 120 mm cannon.
To play devil’s advocate, the US is enormous with over 330 million people. The current military strength is roughly a few million, including civilians and contractors. Additionally, there are roughly about 4,000 main battle tanks in service. There’s maybe a couple thousand fighter jets and bombers combined. Keep in mind, a lot of the US military is abroad, especially our combat ready equipment.
Now, try to spread all of that out over roughly 4 million square miles. Hell, LA itself is around 470 square miles with almost 10 million people. The military would be idiotic to just blindly carpet bomb everything, since y’know, soldiers have families living all over the US, too. Not great for morale. Not to mention, the economy is pretty essential to keeping the machines of war going. Also food. And fuel. And infrastructure for logistics. And medicine. Etc, etc.
A civil war would not be cut and dry, regardless of how well armed and trained the formal military is. It’s why China tries to keep an iron tight grip on its mass surveillance program to squash uprisings before/as soon as they start (and they periodically have them, think there’s been one or two in the last decade). That’s what the US is also trying to do. They call it antiterrorism precautions and other bullshit, but it’s to keep all of us underfoot so no one is able to start an effective movement against the State.
Considering the observed behaviour of the self designated militias in the US, the army would only need to say that there’s a gathering of whatever group the militia opposes on main street and then gun down anyone that shows up in tactical gear. Even without the hyperbole, 2A people are too damaged by their desire to be in their personal action movie to be effective in any kind of war.
That’s pretty funny, and it’d probably work the first few times, if not more lol. I agree with the last part for most of them. But, in a real civil war, it’d include people that aren’t completely idiotic. Like I said, there hasn’t been a quick, clean civil war ever fought in history. Those lessons are useful to take heed of.
What number of those people are of military age, though, fit, able, willing to upend their lives and would support whatever cause? A lot less than 330 million, I’d guess.
They don’t have to be fighters for it to be a headache. During a civil war you have to deal with feeding, securing, housing, etc. all of those people when areas inevitably collapse or are taken over for military operations and people evacuate (i.e. refugees).
Then there are people who do support whichever side and do small acts of sabotage, espionage, etc.
Try running tanks or planes without fuel, parts or ammo production. Covid was a little inconvenience compared to the supply chain nightmare a war could bring. It takes a TON of upkeep to keep a military rolling.
And to be fair the taliban never had conventional air support either. And Ukraine has proven that commercial drones can be just as lethal.
Try running tanks or planes without fuel, parts or ammo production. Covid was a little inconvenience compared to the supply chain nightmare a war could bring. It takes a TON of upkeep to keep a military rolling.
What does this even mean? That a private citizen is going to have better access to fuel, parts and ammo than the government?!?
So MAGA is not the side I would take in a civil war, even if I were an American, however: “Experience has shown that attacks against tanks with close combat weapons by a sufficiently determined man will basically always succeed.”
Look at the early stages of the Ukraine war Russia had in many heavy equipment categories a 5:1 superiority, Ukraine had comparitively few Tanks/AFVs/Aircrafts/Artillery/etc… yet still held it’s own in no small part due to trenchlines of conventional boot-on-floor infantry men, mines, cheap drones, shoulder launched atgms and good motivation/organisation.
You’re right, but bubba the gravy seal is not a sufficiently determined enemy. They tend to either bunker down and go out fighting or just get caught.
Are those conformal fuel tanks?
*Googling, looks like it.
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From left to right:
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AIM-120 AMRAAM
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AIM-9X Sidewinder
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2x GBU-54s
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Fuel tank
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Sniper pod (for targeting)
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Another fuel tank
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Not sure about that little thing, probably more targeting
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Fuel tank
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4x GBU-39 Small diameter bombs
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AIM-9X
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AIM-120
Sniper pod (for targeting)
I’m just imagining a sniper lying in there, trying to stay on target while flying with mach-fuckton in a tiny metal pod
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Asymetric war is a thing.
Because there had never been a coup with a country that has an air force
Huh?
Are you suuuuuure about that?
I’m pretty sure that most coups involve the military.
As far as civil wars go, oh, there’s at least one going on right now in Myanmar, and the gov’t def. has an air force there.
The actual government
Planes cant hold land
A-10 go BRRRRRRRRRRRRRT
Every time this fucking meme is made I’m reminded that the US military is currently being embarrassed in the red sea by a non-state actor with zero air superiority, which began itself with a thousand-or-so civilians with AK47s.
That or how Israel is currently struggling to achieve any kind of military victory against two groups of lightly-armed militias which rely on scavenged and hand-made explosives to defeat state-of-the-art tanks.
Let’s not even remind ourselves about the Taliban.
Or, y’know, Vietnam.
In fairness Israel isn’t struggling to beat Hamas. They could quite handily just carpet bomb the place to oblivion and kill 2 million people. It’s not really any bigger than Grozny, and we saw what even the Russians managed to do to that.
But that doesn’t tend to sit well with anyone, not even the US. Better to commit genocide by making the survivors leave and stealing their land, rather than going full holocaust on them.
Still, they’ve killed 2% of Gaza in a year. Give them 50 more and there won’t be a Gaza Strip.
Pretty much. The US military can take on any other nation state (China is trying to change this, but it’s not there yet). The initial fight against the organized militaries of both Afghanistan and Iraq didn’t last long, and was as much of a one sided curb stomp as you’ll ever see in history. It was the insurgency later on that was the problem.
So long as you have an endless stream of brain washed kids who are happy to die, as they paradise at the end of a barrel, and are happy the kinds of losses they do you’ll be fine
2A’ers are just mentally handicapped, there’s no other way to explain it.
exactly why we need ground to air missiles for civilian use.
Finally someone that gets it.
Okay, so what’s your idea? You’re going to give up your freedoms for some temporary safety?
What “freedoms” would they be giving up, exactly? The freedom to become a school shooter?
Every freedom. You’re giving the government a green light to do whatever they want to you. Two pure examples of this is China and Russia. How do you think tyrannical regimes come along? By taking away your ability to defend yourself. This has been shown in history multiple times.
Europe exists, has more freedom than your shithole country, and very few guns per capita.
No, Europe does not have more freedom than the usa. This is a silly take.
This is objectively true. I have the freedom to go to college without being in crippling debt, the freedom to take 5 weeks of paid vacation every year, the freedom to go to a doctor without fear of bankruptcy, the freedom to travel or move to another country at will…
Living in the US has literally no upside.
Haha and how much are you getting taxed up your arse for all the ‘free’ stuff exactly? Good luck with the third mortgage so you can keep up with tax payments while you freeze your arse off this winter and half your children die due to malnourishment.
Only on about every independent freedom index ever made. Although, im sure you’ll just declare the USA to be more free regardless.
Freedom comes with a price, more regulations do not necessarily make you more free. I’d love if we had a mix of European social safety nets.
And since you wanted to dig out some freedom indexes. Here’s just the first one from google.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/freedom-index-by-country
Like it or not. The USA is a very free country.
Do you think private individuals should also be able to own tanks, ground to air missiles, fighter jets, aircraft carriers and nukes? Why stop at rifles? What do you think rifles will do against a fighter jet?
If you think the people should be able to violently overthrow the government, then the people need to have appropriate armament for something like that. Yet i dont see many people advocating for the right to have tanks.
If more guns means more democracy, why all the places that have tons of guns are so undemocratic? The only exception to this is Switzerland but there people dont actually have guns. Technically they have guns but they have no ammo and their guns are locked and arent allowed to openly carry rifles around.
Everything has a price. And the price for your unrealistic “the government should be afraid of the people because the people have guns” position is the dead children. It’s the every time someone gets angry over something, they have a weapon that can easily end the life of someone else. Do you honestly trust the general public with that power?
Predators I’ve seen on my property: law enforcement, moose, elk, bison, cow, brown bear, black bear, wolf, wild dog
Number of times law enforcement has engaged me for existing while brown since I began to open carry: 0
Bonus: boomers, MAGA, and neolibs are all afraid to engage.
They’ll take my rifle and pistol when they pry them from my cold, dead hands.
Russians absolutely have guns. And their laws aren’t very strict. And you seriously think the majority of developed countries where gun laws are stricter than the US’s are in imminent danger of tyranny?
Sheesh. Tyranny absolutely doesn’t care about guns, and even appreciates them in some ways. Because before things are bad enough that government weaponry (which citizens can never hope to match if the government is serious enough) is used to enforce it, militias of extremists will absolutely start the process of turning the country to shit. And will not prevent actual tyrannical behaviour by the government.
Proud Boys standing at polling stations with military weapons to intimidate voters for “safety”. Extremist anti-abortion nutheads enforcing their point of view regardless of laws or basic logic. Police murdering citizens for minor offenses or unfounded suspicions, where a gun on the citizen’s person couldn’t possibly do anything but make the cops more afraid and more violent. (What you gonna do with your guns? Start a frickin’ war with the police? You know they’ll call for reinforcements and now have a perfectly valid reason to shoot, right?)
Those are all happening in the US. Guns aren’t helping with any of this tyrannical behaviour, and while I’m not willing to put my hand over the fire over this take, it would be reasonable to consider whether the popularity of gun laws and lax gun regulation have made things worse.
You know what is being used right now to fight against the coup in Myanmar? Small arms…and it’s working.
A plane cannot patrol a street corner or kick in doors.
Soap
Ballet
We are here, between these two…pray it does not make it to the last
Jury
Cartridge
A response from a 2A’er with a “tard” suffix that illustrates my point. Thank you.
Nice, can’t even explain why you disagree. Thanks for proving my point.
I would have went with a predator drone.
