• lectricleopard@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    The mechanism behind metal whisker growth is not well understood, but seems to be encouraged by compressive mechanical stresses. According to Wikipedia.

    Electrons in metal always move the same speed, and potential differences in modern high perf applications are never above 3.3V. There are mechanical stresses in ICs introduced during manufacturing. So these cases aren’t as different as you let on.

    Anyway, point is, metal moves, we have some ideas why and can model some of them. From an engineering perspective these are both tin whiskers. We call whiskers made of copper and aluminum tin whiskers. You’re describing a distinction without a difference.

    • glizzyguzzler@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      2 months ago

      The metal moves due to very different reasons. I would not say whiskers due to mechanical/residual stresses are due to “electromigration” - electromigration isn’t even there since the wiki definition is “transport of material caused by the gradual movement of the ions in a conductor due to the momentum transfer between conducting electrons and diffusing metal atoms”. You build stresses and strains into semiconductors for better mobility profiles, and I’m sure that can cause whiskers - but again, it’s not electromigration.

      Electromigration, as noted, plays a role in the form of encouraging stress whiskers to grow in a direction (with a very relaxed definition).

      But in ICs, with their very unique extremely small scales, electromigration can directly form whiskers by moving individual ions via electron collisions. But the generation mechanism for those whiskers shares nothing with Big Whiskers generation mechanism. That’s my point.

      Electrons in metal do not always move at the same speed; they move at v=mu*E where v is the velocity, mu is the electron mobility, and E is the electric field. Crank the E, you go faster. At very high E fields you reach the electron saturation velocity where slowing factors limit the maximum speed - I assume in your IC world you’re basically always there due to the extremely small regions (E = V/m; any V with m at nanometers is big E) which is why you claim that. But even then the electrons are accelerating due to the E field, smashing into ions and losing their momentum (mass static, so it’s just velocity), and then re-accelerating. The saturation velocity is the average bulk motion of electrons but it’s not a smooth highway, it’s LA traffic (constant crashes).

      Electrons can gain significant momentum, which is just their static mass times their velocity. Limited at velocity by the saturation velocity, current density is important for significant momentum exchange. Luckily ICs are so tiny that the currents they drive are massive current densities.

      What you said originally is correct; it’s just in ICs electromigration can cause whiskers. In the Big World it can’t. But it can influence Big Whiskers to grow to the worst places and fuck up things optimally if you take an extremely relaxed view of electromigration that defines it as “movement of ions encouraged by an electric field”.

      • lectricleopard@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        You’re misunderstanding me.

        For instance, electrons always move the same speed in a given metal. Which of couse isn’t even ‘true’ because temperature affects mobility.

        There are multiple mechanisms for metal to migrate, grow whiskers, or whatever you like to call the individual growth on an object. I mentioned that in the case if ICs, we are concerned with one we call electromigration. I’m not saying all metal migration is due to electromigration.

        You’re being pedantic when all I’m saying is, I deal with these sorts of concerns in my job.

        • glizzyguzzler@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          2 months ago

          Tiger I think you’re being pedantic, they linked to Whiskers (metallurgy) not Whiskers (electromigration). There is a difference! But it’s not super clear cut, which is why I took the time to write about it.

          Electrons do not always move at the same speed in a given metal. A lot of things affects mobility, but the E field is very important too. Both things combine so that electrons do not always move at the same speed in a given metal. But you can simplify in an IC world because there you’re riding the saturation velocity basically always, which is why I assume you keep claiming that.

          I want you to know that your experiences from your education and job are valid - you do deal with whiskers in ICs, not denying that; the fact is that whiskers due to stresses and strains aren’t called electromigration which is what the original comment says.

          “A similar thing also called whiskers can happen inside ICs and has been a known failure mode for high frequency processors for many years. I work in chip design, and we use software tools to simulate it. It’s due to electromigration and doesn’t rely on stresses but instead high current densities.”