Growing the population is just kicking the can down the road because you can’t grow it forever anyway… We already have a over strained biosphere; pollution, resource depletion, climate change, accelerated species extinction etc

This entire thing is a nothing burger.

you’re right

It is technically Zionism. If you are anti-Zionist, at this point in time, you think Israel should not exist. If you are a Zionist, you think Israel should exist.

Incidentally, I have similar views as yours regarding the ICC and war crimes, and was called “horrible” and “proud” and “shit” among other things.

I’m deleting my account tomorrow. I don’t know if I would be banned for my views, but I don’t feel welcome here. It feels like if I am against war crimes and want ICC prosecutions, but am not actively advocating for Israel to be destroyed, it’s not enough to be here… or even if it were enough, enough people said terrible things to me that I really don’t want to be a part of this community anymore.

Never again will I donate to Palestinian causes, post any articles supporting the movement, support a 2 state solution.

You’re right. I’ll be a horrible Zionist who simply doesn’t give a fuck. Keeping kicking all the impure people out of your movement who don’t pass your tests. I’m sure it will help.

Who says I want favors? Full stop, fuck you.

It is an emotional response because I’ve also been called a horrible person, and proud, and all this other really insulting stuff.

If I say it’s a genocide and I’m in favor of ICC prosecutions, I don’t know how that it’s enough. Am I not allowed to care about Jewish safety or trans suicides unless my language is more staunchly condemnatory? I linked to a bbc article about Israeli guards fucking prisoners of war with dogs. Multiple people are insulting me, while I’m pretty clearly condemning war crimes, and I’m not allowed to have opinions about other things, apparently, because my condemnation isn’t strong enough.

I really don’t care, fuck all of you, I’m out. My new thing is to not comment on this situation at all, not donate anything, not advocate for anything. I can’t have a position that involves Israel existing without being attacked. I’ll find a new instance and avoid this topic. I expect to be banned at the rate of my replies, but I don’t care, I don’t want to be a part of this. The fediverse is great. I’ll find somewhere else to be that doesn’t want to be mean to me.

It’s not one mean comment. I’ve had a hard life, I’ve had about 4 people say mean shit on here today to me, including one person calling me a horrible person. I am depressed enough, I am suicidal enough, yes I haven’t lost my whole family in a genocide, but my life is awful enough. If this is the movement and my views exclude me and make me “horrible” then fuck all of you. I am also poor, I am housing insecure… I don’t need this. Really, fuck all of you. I mean it.

You think you’re helping Palestinians? I previously donated to Palestinian causes. But why?

You know what? Forget it. You’re right, I’m a racist bully. You can fight this shit on your own. No more donating anything, no more advocating for ICC prosecutions. You have convinced me not to be a part of any advocacy.

You win.

Seriously, if this is the ethos of the movement, I want no part of it, no donating anything to help Palestinians, no supporting ICC prosecutions and a Palestinian state. If this is the hate that this position gets me, if you people all hate me so much, I’m going back to indifference… and my views were far more liberal on this topic than those of the average person. But you’ve convinced me, I should not support Palestinians in any way, I am bad and evil and not wanted.

Peace the fuck out asshole.

Where the fuck did you get that from what I said?

I do not support genocide, I want there to be ICC prosecutions and am against war crimes.

Just because Israel exists does not mean war crimes must occur. This is a specific choice by a specific conservative leadership of Israel. Where are you getting that I am in favor of war crimes from what I said?

Honestly, fuck all of you. I say specifically, multiple times, that I support the ICC, that war crimes have occurred, even listing some of them, and that I support the Palestinians having a place to live that is safe and free of bizarre regulations and cruelty.

But apparently, my comment about protecting Jewish people’s safety means that I must support war crimes? What the fuck?

Full stop, go back to Grok or wherever you learned that shit diction. I am someone who was in favor of ICC prosecutions, in favor of a two state solution, agreed with the International community, and you’re all coming down on me like a bunch of hornets. So you know what? Kick me out, ban me, fuck you, and I won’t express being in support of ICC prosecutions, I won’t do any support of Palestinians… I am a “proud” and “horrible” person and this isn’t “the place for me.” So, go ahead, have your small tent party. I won’t be doing any activism on this at all, apparently I’m not liberal enough and I’m tired of being insulted.

I support Israel’s right to exist. I also support the ICC, I support Palestinians having a homeland, a state, and support the international community’s characterizations of various acts as war crimes.

Apparently, this makes me a “horrible” person and “proud.”

You know, I deal with enough depression as it is, enough people have been mean to me during my lifetime for being gay, if supporting Palestinian people in any way (ie, being on the side of ICC prosecutions, among other things, which, in my area is a somewhat controversial position) requires some staunch anti-Israel-existence position, that it should not even exist as a state, then count me out. I think I’m probably going to delete my account. I have enough misery in my life and I’d rather be apolitical, despite the genocide really bothering me, if having multifaceted views is going to have people insulting me like this.

I really question whether alienating moderate liberals will help you get what you want. I am much more likely to be more apoltiical regarding liberal issues after being treated this way for not being liberal enough.

Literal things I have typed prior your response above:

“International organizations have correctly labeled what has occurred a genocide and these organizations are not biased and are telling the truth.”

“My belief that Israel protects Jewish people does not mean that I support conservative Jewish people in Israel committing war crimes. I support the ICC and I support Israel existing and I support Palestinians having a safe and nice place to live without being treated horribly.”

“There are also Palestinian people who died as heroes documenting the genocide.”

Thanks for labeling me as a horrible person! As an LGBT+ person who has received a lot of hate in my lifetime, it’s always nice to get more. If you read through my post history, you would know I’ve dealt with a lot of depression, so just thanks for adding onto things!

Also, you may want to ask yourself if alienating someone slightly moderate (someone in favor of the ICC, in favor of a Palestinian safe and nice homeland, and in favor of international characterizations that certain acts constitute war crimes) is good for your movement… or if you are making your tent and your movement smaller and weaker? I don’t actually like being called a horrible person and am probably less likely to advocate for Palestinian restitution and rights and ICC prosecutions after this, not because I don’t support it, but because I’ve experienced enough hate in my life, and don’t like being called a horrible person. If the movement to support Palestinians has no place for me because I think Israel should exist, or if the movement has a place for me but I’m going to be called horrible, I am unfortunately already depressed and miserable enough and will engage less… and will be alienated. Do you realize you’re having that effect? Do you care?

your justification for supporting a genocide

Honestly, fuck you you illiterate moron. If I’m a horrible person, you’re a damn idiot who can’t read. I am someone who actively wanted ICC prosecutions, who considered doing activism work supporting the ICC regarding this, but you know what? Fuck you, fuck this movement, fuck this instance, I don’t want to be treated this way, ban me, kick me out of the movement, keep your political movement nice and exclusive. I am way less likely to do anything regarding this movement at all, including supporting the ICC in any way. If I’m so horrible, then fuck you, I won’t advocate for ICC prosecutions or support this cause at all, apparently I’m not welcome and want genocide… that’s literally what I am saying, right?

Yes, that was literally what I said. I literally typed “Oh, won’t someone please think of the children… so we can bomb innocent children.” It’s what I wrote… LITERALLY. Good job, reading comprehension A+

Thanks! I thought I was more afraid of trans kids committing suicide… but you’re right… I actually did mean that “subhuman” language! Who cares about trans kids dying as the population becomes more conservative? Thanks for correcting me!

After many Muslims were let into Canada, they protested against trans people, calling it gender ideology. (https://www.trtworld.com/article/13562350). Huge numbers of trans people successfully complete suicide because of bullying, trans people who can’t get hormone treatments when they are young have less successful transitions and are more likely to commit suicide, and religious protesting against gender ideology in Canada literally is more straw on the backs of transgender youths and likely was the tipping point that did in fact lead to some young trans people to kill themselves. You can call it xenophobia or whatever, but it’s reality, and trans suicides are not just theoretical.

It is also not as though most Muslims throughout the world protested against these Canadians, saying they had gone too far. Yes, there are trans Muslims and liberal Muslims, but were trans kids in Canada more likely to commit suicide because of these protests? Yes.

I can simultaneously want Palestinian people to not be genocided and subject to war crimes and want to protect trans people. If we are truly anti-colonialism, it would also be requesting abolishment of the USA and abolishment of even some South American countries and I do not genuinely believe that if the states that exist were to somehow go away and borders were to go away, that the result would be more liberalism. I don’t even see how the idea of any borders is somehow fair; why should some people be allowed to roam earth freely in some areas and other people not? But it’s not logistically clear how it would work right now if all borders were abolished, if people just did whatever they want. It is also not logistically clear how Jewish people would be protected when you have rising far right European parties and rising US neo-Nazism. My belief that Israel protects Jewish people does not mean that I support conservative Jewish people in Israel committing war crimes. I support the ICC and I support Israel existing and I support Palestinians having a safe and nice place to live without being treated horribly. But on a technical level, anyone who supports Israel even existing is a Zionist. So, that’s what I am then. Even if colloquially Zionism has come to represent apologists for a war crime regime in Israel, Zionism technically means someone who wants Israel to exist, so… then I am a Zionist.

When Biden left Iraq, ISIS filled the vaccum and now women are not allowed to read. And yes, the US should have never gone into Iraq, but my point is that in a vaccum or void left from the absence of a state, it’s not as though educated and enlightened liberalism is the first thing to swoop in and expand and fill that void, instead it was ISIS. I am xenophobic toward transphobic people and misogynistic people and if that makes me inherently xenophobic, so be it. If there were a way to allow for immigration as long as people weren’t transphobic, then great, but it doesn’t seem like there are “liberalism values” tests given to people who immigrate. There are Middle Eastern women out there, heroes, who are protesting against cruel treatment, women like Mahsa Amini and Hadis Najafi. I am not scared of heroes like this. I wish I had all the integrity and bravery of Hadis who died a hero to all people. I wish I could have met her and talked to her. I look at her, and AOC, and Geta Thunberg as so pure and ethical… but Hadis, she was something else, a different kind of Warrior. There are also Palestinian people who died as heroes documenting the genocide. I also do not claim to be a good person who has stood up to injustice and cruelty the way others have.

It seems like I am the sort of person you all want to ban, so I should just go. It’s just an instance and I don’t want to be where I am not wanted. It’s clearly the best instance for various reasons, but I’ll be okay. That’s what’s great about the fediverse!

How are you defining Zionism?

I am a Zionist based on a literal definition. In a better society, people could go anywhere they wanted, use electronic currency and have UBI, and do what they want.

So I’m a gay person. If there were no borders, I would be concerned that religious conservatives (of any faith) would move to my area and have tons of conservative kids, and then it would be harder for me to be gay without being killed and to marry. 100 years from now, I would hope that religions are less hostile to people who are different.

I also think if there were no Israel, Jewish people would be more likely to be killed. Elon Musk recently did a Nazi salute in America, many conservatives are openly embracing racists like Nick Fuentes, and it’s very hard to predict if these are random flukes or if it’s a harbinger of neo-Nazism growing in America. And although Europe has become more tolerant of Jewish people since WWII, I can understand some Jewish people wanting to not live there post-Holocaust.

I’m also not okay with war crimes. Many war crimes have impacted Palestinians: starvation of civilian Palestinians as a method of war negotiation, having dogs fuck Palestinians in prison to rape sexually assault and degrade and humiliate them (https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c8dy8r7lq0go), etc. International organizations have correctly labeled what has occurred a genocide and these organizations are not biased and are telling the truth. I would like Israel to exist and Palestinians to be treated well and have a place to live (that isn’t subject to bizarre blockades or harsh unfair rules).

However, based on the technical meaning of Zionist, since I support Israel existing, that makes me a Zionist. I’m willing to leave voluntarily (or you can just ban me).

I completely agree. This is all about people not enjoying life because they work too much. Regulate the problem as an externality and this problem would go away. But government leaders in Japan would never have the guts to radically regulate the problem, such as requiring double the pay for overtime after 28 hours of work per person in a week (and this would need to be per person, not per job, to avoid people then just doubling up on jobs to get more hours; the externality could only be brought under control by having it apply to everyone with no way to circumvent it).

If Japan capped working at 28 hours a week and anything after that required double the pay (for overtime), this problem would taken care of.

Working all the time makes people miserable. It’s an externality that impacts society in all sorts of horrible ways. It would be proper for the government to institute a rule like this.

It would definitely lower GDP of Japan and cause some economic issues, but the alternative (living in a world where people are so miserable that they don’t fall in love as much and want to reproduce) is worse for their economy.

Will they do this? No, because it would require thinking outside of the box too much and would be seen as too extreme.