I’ve been trying to find a good Marxist instance, but Lemmygrad and Hexbear are widely hated. Why is that? Are there any good leftist instances?
I’ve been trying to find a good Marxist instance, but Lemmygrad and Hexbear are widely hated. Why is that? Are there any good leftist instances?
Lemmygrad and Hexbear aren’t “leftist” in the confused sense that Americans usually mean “leftist.” They’re actually leftist in the original sense, meaning that they want to abolish private ownership of the means of production. To the extent they’re “widely hated,” it’s largely because the Anglosphere has been indoctrinated against real, actual socialism their entire lives.
More often than not, when Americans say leftist they really mean left-liberalism a la Bernie Sanders, which is really center-left at most, and not actually leftist in the original sense, a sense which Americans have forgotten thanks to two Red Scares and the first Cold War.
True, but leninists are not leftist in any significant sense either. They are more authoritarian/ totalitarian than they are left or right.
Totalitarian is an invented term, and every single government and governance structure is “authoritarian” by definition. These words mean hubris, and are dogwhistles for anti-communists.
If Leninists are not leftists according to you, you might as well start to claim Hitler was not a fascist, and Bush, Obama, Clinton, Churchill were all great homies.
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That’s not the part people have an issue with, the part where their users deny genocides, call everyone that has a less extreme left opinion of politics Nazis, end up being so “anti-racism” that they’re racists themselves and take all critics as personal attacks, that’s what people have an issue with.
Wild how much footage is coming out of Gaza right now showing an actual ongoing genocide, yet Zionists and their water-carriers will harp on and on about how Israel is merely defending itself.
Nothing of the sort from Xinjiang. At all.
I’d like to see ONE verifiable image or video depicting this supposed Uyghur genocide we’re denying. ONE. Apparently it’s one of the worst human atrocities occuring right now. One of the worst in HISTORY.
So… show me a single picture. Fetish porn doesn’t count. Where are the dead bodies? Where are these supposed mass graves?
Love to break it to ya, they don’t fucking exist and they never did. You’ve been lied to.
The US state department lawyers and the British House of Lords have evidence. That’s why they’re pursuing convictions of the Chinese leaders involved. No, wait— sorry, I misremembered. They both concluded there is insufficient evidence.
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So you agree that there is a strong argument for Russia seeking genocide in Ukraine as well, right?
Israel has killed more civilians (mostly children and women) in a month of war than Russia has killed in almost two years. The Russians actually target almost exclusively military infrastructure, they have preserved electrical grids, water stations, communications infrastructure, etc… Not because they are “good guys”, obviously, but it’s a part of their strategy. But it shows genocide is not a part of this strategy.
That was easy.
The article was written by Timofei Sergeitsev, a Russian “philosopher” with no direct link to the government. The article in the website you linked was written in early April 2022, very early after the war, when no one knew what to expect. It was claimed it was “proof” the Russians was intending to genocide Ukrainians.
More than a year later, have we seen anything like it? Have we seen active actions from the Russians to consistently destroy civilian buildings and systematically cause civilian casualties on purpose? I at least haven’t, unless we are talking about a completely different war which I’m not aware. I don’t excuse the Russians of anything, I’m sticking with the facts. The Russians have been very careful not to cause non-military casualties, which is extremely odd for a genocidal regime.
So, in short, it’s your article written by a guy with no links to the government vs. what the actual war itself shows in practice. I prefer to see what practice shows us.
Feels like ad hominem. The point is that you are unwilling to even engage with the idea that Russia seeks to eliminate Ukrainian identity, an idea which is reported by a number of primary Russian sources in a variety of media. Putin himself expresses frequent open skepticism of Ukrainian nationality. Not to even mention the internationally recognized mass deportation of children.
I won’t argue that Israel isn’t an apartheid state engaging in collective punishment. Meanwhile you will turn yourself in circles to defend Russian aggression, and for the life of me I can figure out what that has to do with liberating workers. It just feels less like intellectual honesty and more like campism. But then somehow I’m the brainwashed goon for actually attempting to maintain something resembling ideological consistency.
Camarada Forte did engage with this argument. The person who created this supposed dossier dictating Russia’s desire to destroy the Ukrainian identity has no direct link to the Russian government.
You need evidence we can engage with. We cannot meaningfully engage with empty platitudes.
Do you know what was going on in eastern Ukraine, beginning in 2014? Pretty similar to what’s going on in Gaza right now. Hint: it was not Russian artillery leveling homes, schools, and hospitals.
Awfully defensive there, bud. Speaking of ad hominem. 🙄
Is that like a litmus test? Next time I’m ordering pizza I’ll ask the restaurant if they are willing to engage with the idea that Russia seeks to eliminate Ukrainian identity.
Literally no idea why you brought that up again lol
To be fair, inside the Russia itself some Putin’s words about Ukrainian history are criticized. Therefore, I would not speak for all of Russia. Most of the russian people have an extremely negative attitude towards the Ukrainian right-wing radical government and a positive attitude towards the ukrainian people. And the media is not trying to change these opinions with the exception of a few of the dumbest loudmouths. So your words about genocide are nonsense.
Oh so it’s not a “Kremlin paper”, it’s just what some guy thinks. If there are “no more Nazis in Ukraine than anywhere else” then there are no more nazis in Russia than anywhere else 🙃
If you are referring to the Xinjiang issue, then it just reaffirms what @davel@lemmy.ml just said:
Because the “Uyghur genocide” in Xinjiang is another example of propaganda. Or do you really think the West cares about Muslims and want to protect their “freedom”?
I don’t see anyone in Lemmygrad calling other people “Nazis” because they disagree with someone in a discussion. I usually see them criticizing others as “liberals.” This is either a misrepresentation of leftists in general, very common among conservatives, or you are frequently being called a Nazi. I don’t know, maybe that’s on you? 🤔
That’s so specific you should give at least one example of this. We have very strict moderation against any bigotry, so I challenge you to link any “racist” attitude or comment you have seen in Lemmygrad. I will give you 24 hours, and if you don’t reply with an example, I will edit this comment saying you chickened out.
EDIT: They chickened out, as expected.
And 24 hours have passed with no evidence! No sources! No citations! Typical unsubstantiated settler horseshit.
Another repeating problem is the vast generalizations. Treating “the West” as if they’re all Bush Jr. or Reagan.
If “the west” isn’t voting for Bush or Reagan then they’re hailing people like Obama, who destroyed Libya and brought back open air slave markets - or Clinton who destroyed Belgrade and undermined social protections for workers. To think you are somehow better because you support(ed?) Genocide Joe is just delusion.
I’m not even American yet still in “the west”, and refuse to be identified by American subpar ways of determining people in power.
Americrackers and their vassals
being in the west may as well mean you’re american, they tell you what to do, try saying no.
What’s your view on Trump?
Just as bad as Biden, Obama, Bush Jr., and both Clintons; deserving of the same International Criminal Court convictions as the five I just listed.
Fun fact: did you know the ICC has only ever prosecuted African nationals since its inception in 2002?
I hadn’t done that much research into it, but I’d figured most of them were. Of course the ICC’s just a Western white body to keep the mother continent under the settlers’ thumb.
Critical support to Donald Trump in his mission to undermine the amerikkkan state, bless him for not hiring people to the state department and congratulations for his negotiation of capitulation to the Taliban
Ok, Stalin
This is not quite the insult you think it is.
The West ≠ Western citizens
North Atlantic imperialist countries is what we refer as “the West”. They have shared interests and in terms of foreign policy act almost in unison, so much so that a single term to describe North American and Western European countries is not a generalization, it’s quite appropriate actually.
Don’t act Reagan-adjacent and you won’t get pilloried for it. Considering you wanna throw around allegations of genocide denial with zero investigation and zero evidence, you sound less Reagan and a lot more Bush-- and subsequently deserve no right to serious speech.
lmao shut up
; settler tears are abundant in supply and abysmally low in both demand and quality
I love you and how you take the time to call out all of these comments.
I’m on break and I don’t celebrate Amerikan Genocide Day; I got nothin but time today homie
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There is no need to “deny genocide” which exist only in american propaganda and in your brain that’s been poisoned by it. “The Holodomor”, is a fringe conspiracy theory, just like the US media chauvinistic campaign about the Uighurs in China. No one takes either the first or second seriously outside the US. Not to mention it’s anti-communism used to reinforce the dictate of the ruling class over society. And by supporting these conspiracy theories, this anti-communism, you are literally speaking out against the working class.
So, uh, yeah. The lemmygrad guys are right. You’re a fascist, dearie.
Don’t forget the rest of the International CommunityTM
Did you mean “the Crackerverse™”?
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This is the common refrain. It’s easier to believe we’re bots or shills than believe socialists walk among us
Given the comment you’re just responding to, that’s a level of not-self-reflection that’s usually reserved to /r/selfawarewolfs or the like.
Well, yours lack of elementary logic and exposure to propaganda, it’s the level of /r/shitliberalsay or the like. The burden of proof is on the assertor. Neither the American propaganda nor the fools fooled by it have proved any genocide, but they are already accusing us of denying it. A typical mind manipulation tactic where a thesis is taken as immutable truth without any basis for it.
Can you point to genocide denial before you make sweeping accusations?
Nope. Comment threads don’t work like that.
Okay so no evidence Hexbear or Lemmygrad have denied genocides?
Oh there certainly is. You gotta read those comment threads yourself.
It’s popped up in this one, too. It’s really curious how you can read and write enough to answer here, but not see that.
I’m not asking to see the comments for myself, I’m asking if you can point to evidence of this happening; it’s not the same question.
I understand. You refuse to accept something that is fairly obvious for many Lemmy users and want to put a burden of proof on me, and because I don’t want to take on additional work for someone I neither know nor agree with, you are happy to keep your opinion, as am I to keep mine.
anyone complaining about “reverse racism” or “anti white racism” is a complete joke. like boo fucking hoo, someone called you a cracker on the internet, get over it.
That isn’t what they are talking about, hopefully. But if it is, I agree, a hearty “lol” is in order.
they replied confirming to me that what they were complaining about was in fact racism against white people, given that it seems to be a pretty common bit on lemmygrad to call people crackers and compare them to that kid who went onto fox news to complain about his face being photoshopped onto a picture of a ritz cracker by left wing students at his university that seems to be what they were complaining about
edit: i found a picture of the guy
Bad interpretation is bad
Racism has a definition that’s fairly easy to understand and yes people of all colors can be victims and even people of the same skin colour can be racists against one another because racism isn’t necessarily about the color of your skin, it can be about your ethnicity.
Racism:
prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism by an individual, community, or institution against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.Ethnicity:
the quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent.If you had taken a crowd of anonymous Germans all dressed the same in 1935, how would you have told who was a Jew and who wasn’t? You wouldn’t have been able to because they were all just white people.
What do you call it when 100 years ago in a first world white country the population that speaks one official language has an infant mortality rate comparable to that of colonial Africa while the population that speaks the other official language and lives in the same cities has an infant mortality rate comparable to any other first world nation?
Was the Rwanda genocide not racism because it was two groups with the same skin colour? What about what happened in Yugoslavia?
My white friend who went to China to study had to sit through multiple explanations by many Chinese student of the levels of intelligence being affected by skin colour and ethnicity and guess what, whites weren’t at the top! “All white people are dumber than Indians who are dumber than Koreans who are dumber than Chinese.” Are you telling me that isn’t racism against white people (and anyone that isn’t Chinese)? Because I sure would hope someone would call me a racist if I was saying the same thing about people of another skin colour or ethnicity!
you see i have pulled out the dictionary definition of racism and also an annecdote about how a country colonized by white people for centuries can actually be racist against my white friend for calling him a ‘cracker’, defeating your arguement
lmao shut up
Racism is not easy to understand and you’re definitely not going to get a clear understanding of it from reading a definition especially if you’re white. I suggest you read some books. Good heavens maybe your racist Chinese friend is right.
Edit I hear this is a good book
White fragility by Robin diangelo
Racism against white people would be a problem if white people were not the perpetrators of racism against the entire world for centuries, whilst looting and genociding and dehumanising other races. Except the fact that they have and do it in unison and cheerfully, in the name of “white man’s burden” bullshit. And people like you defend it and carry water for them.
You know which country “inspired” and taught racial segregation policies to Hitler? USA. The country that defected Europeans colonised by genociding Native American indigenous people. I swear this whole shit has to be some kind of grand project, because Albert Pike (most famous Freemason leader) spoke of 3 world wars that West invents, 2 of which have been exactly invented the way he described, and he uses terms like Nazism, a term or ideology which did not even exist in 1891.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m581aW5AH4M
The game is over for Anglos.
So you’re saying that what the Jews were victim of during WW2 wasn’t racism? Because they certainly were white!
How about the Irish? The deportation of Acadians? French Canadians seeing their language becoming illegal to teach in Manitoba? The Yugoslav wars?
By your logic it’s also impossible to be racist towards Chinese and Japanese because man, let me tell you, they can be racist as fuck towards everyone else and they were the ones in power on their side of the world for centuries!
Racism has a definition and it’s a bad thing no matter who the victim is.
European Jews were not considered white before and during WW2. Whiteness has always changed with whatever we needed it to be for political reasons. The Irish were not considered white. In South Africa during Apartheid, a Japanese national was forbidden by a bus driver from entering a whites-only bus because the driver thought he was Chinese. The man sued and won against the driver as the Japanese were considered white and allowed to board segregated buses.
Cry more, cracker. You crack me up with that hubris of yours.
It’s funny how it’s always the same whenever you’re confronted to arguments. You just insult the other party and leave the scene like you were a hero.
Also very funny you should call me a cracker when you don’t know what’s my origin, you just assume I’m white because you would be unable to accept that someone not white could realize that racism goes all ways.
lmao shut up
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Ok shitlord, please deny racism exists
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sh.itsfulla.nazis being a nazi bar? Perish the thought!
Thanks for providing an example of what I was talking about :)
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Extremely accurate
I literally netted a 2 week sitewide-ban on one of my alts in this thread for a softer worded take than this
Don’t know how I managed to escape consequences so far 😂
Holy shit you got them to brigade your comment. They might as well be bots, I think Chat GPT’s “intelligence” outpaces them.
I believe it says far more about your own reading comprehension skills if you can’t tell us - human beings sick and tired of Empire apologia - apart from the usually incomprehensible shit salad that language models currently like to present as coherent.
Maybe if you actually read more, you’d be able to discern the difference. 🤷♂️
As is tradition! What’s funny is that they’re supposed to be defederated from my instance so I don’t know why they even see my comments… Their admin even called my instance “sh.itsfullof.nazis” in their defederation message because they were angry that they were confronted to people who disagreed with them when they brigaded our administration communities…
They have a community dedicated to organizing brigades so it’s no surprise that they are brigading their comment
!the_dunk_tank@hexbear.net
The rules in the side bar are very telling
Of course the last time I mentioned it’s existence with one of my alts I got a 2 week sitewide-ban so this comment probably won’t last long
Edit: Spleling
The “Uyghur genocide” is bullshit Atlanticist propaganda, and English-language Wikipedia is basically NATOpedia in its slant on the topic, so yes we will deny it. It’s a product of the new Cold War propaganda campaign against China.
I get why people would believe it like a decade ago when the facts were still kind of up in the air, but now even west media is like “yeaaah we looked into it and all of it is complete and utter bullshit” and yet you still have people confidently going on like it’s still a thing.
Eventually you have to come to the grips with the fact that the only reason you believe in the Uyghur genocide is because you’re racist.
Atlanticist crackers are exactly why I’m a third-worldist; I genuinely care more about my community’s diaspora than I’d ever care about these genocidal neocolonist crackers
Here are some properties of any conspiracy theory worth it’s name:
It matches for QAnon and the MAGA crowd as well as the lemmygrad crowd.
not having the self awareness to realize this applies to anti-communists, not communists/MLs as they use scientific reasoning.
Just to understand what you are saying, do you say communists apply scientific reasoning?
Yes, the foundation of most communists reasoning is based on sociology.
That’s very abstract and doesn’t mean much. With as many words you can say capitalism is based on scientific reasoning.
Its not abstract at all, ‘Marxism’ is an entire field in sociology and is recongised + fundemental to understanding sociology.
Yes, Marxism is based on a scientific methodology called historical materialism. It’s too complex to be explained in a single comment, but it has an internal logic and methodology which proposes to analyze social systems in general, but especially capitalist societies in particular.
You can’t use the scientific method used in the natural sciences because you can’t put a society in a lab to study it. Social sciences require a methodology apart from the natural sciences, and Marxism has proposed historical materialism, which is very consistent and coherent approach, based on the Hegelian dialectical logic with materialism as a principle.
How ironic! Let’s see if it fits for the “genocide” position:
Closed Ideological Systems: Whether those who defend the idea of “genocide” in Xinjiang are aware or not, the sources used to claim there is a genocide in Xinjiang is usually Adrian Zenz, a German white supremacist and Christian fundamentalist who claimed in his book Worthy to Escape that “other belief systems are ultimately inspired by Satan” and justifies “eternal punishment” for those who refuse to believe in Jesus.
Immunity to Facts: Every time one tries to argue that Xinjiang faced a policy of de-radicalization of terrorists who led many attacks against the province, those who claim there is a genocide there say they are “genocide deniers.” I’ve even seen people saying those who don’t agree with the “genocide” position are paid by the Chinese.
Enemy Construction: I can’t even count the number of times people have called those who don’t promote the “genocide” propaganda “tankies” and dismissing them instead of engaging with arguments.
Adaptability: The “genocide” propaganda claims there is a genocide there, and then when presented with the fact that even those who were put in the re-education facilities were allowed to express their culture with dances and art on video, the “genocide” conspiracy theorists say that it was a fake, an act, that it was a spectacle organized by the Chinese to hide the genocide. Just to give you an example.
It does match the “genocide” position very well. I’ve yet to see a genocide which preserves the language, the culture, the customs and the places of worship of a people. Another thing, notice the reaction of Muslim countries to the actual genocide being perpetrated by Israel. They are firmly condemning it through all channels. In contrast, the policies of de-radicalization by the Chinese were unanimously well-received by Muslim countries.
Very generous of you to assume that many of these folk believe Muslims and Arabs are human beings capable of forming their own opinions and international policy. The opinions of actual Muslims are similarly handwaved akin to any communist’s opinion.
These states’ international defense of China’s de-radicalization program is stated to merely be because they are money-hungry opportunists, buddying up with China while ignoring a politically and economically inconvenient genocide. 🙄 How… adaptable this narrative is.
The seemingly unending wave of videos of Uyghurs in China recording themselves in their homes and making it clear they are not undergoing genocide have to be ignored. In fact, they have to be deleted by the platforms hosting them. How utterly immune to facts this narrative is.
If these countries care about Palestine, oh… I don’t know. Russia is making them care. Iran, maybe? Maybe North Korea or China are forcing these Muslims to hate Israel. Who else are we being directed to hate right now? Afghanistan? Just throw a dart at the “Axis of Evil” board and pick an “uncivilized” nation. It’s their fault. Why not?
That’s a liberal with no framework. No one denies genocides (pro-tip just because the western media says it’s a genocide doesn’t make it a genocide.) Being so anti-racist you are the real racist is the Liberal Democratic party who elected a hard-core segregationist as president, not a Marxist Leninist. No one except people like you give a fuck about personal attacks. lol.
Any politically focused space on the Internet, left or right, is a cesspool of toxic lies and hatred of anyone outside their sphere
British. Immediately discarded.
The OG colonizer scum? DEFINITELY discarded. Into the woodchipper with TERF island scumbags.
I guess this answers OPs question!
That’s what we call racism
L M F A O
Motherfuck the Brits and any expectation they’re owed ANY kind of respect lmfao lmfao lmfao
im british and i give them the g-word pass (gammon) to refer to british people in a derogatory way
Oh so y’all got a pig(derogatory) equivalent too! Baller.