Found it being posted in this forum
https://knockout.chat/thread/83608
Of course the “terminally left” Knockout forum would think that Russia is only talking about Banderites to misdirect others from their “collaborationist” history. Completely taking away any and all credits that USSR have done and sacrificed to liberate Europe from actual fucking Nazis.
So what does the channel have?
Racism (but it’s not if it’s against Russians!)
Even in Ukraine, the number of Banderites was tiny compared to the number of Ukrainians in the Red Army/Communist partisans. The problem is which group is getting boosted by the current military and government.
Tells me Russia collaborated with Nazi Germany
looks inside
It’s the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact
Every. Time.
It REALLY is the only thing they know* about
*know but not the context or history or that the entirety of Europe had favourable views of Nazi Germany and made pacts with them way before USSR even did lmao
Of course, USA never collaborated with Nazis. By the time things like Operation Paperclip and Gladio rolled around the Third Reich was already over so all the people they worked with weren’t Nazis anymore!kicking IBM et al under the couch
Didn’t the US pay for damages whenever a Ford factory got bombed in Nazi Germany during the war?
The collaborators were rather noisily forgotten actually. The noise in question being from a dozen Mosin-Nagants firing.
I have only heard of this knockout platform one other time and it was the most Nazi mask off shit I had ever seen.
If you mention China there, you’ll get very liberal replies. If you mention DPRK, you’re now talking to Hitler.
You know ghosts are fake because the souls of the millions of red army dead arent haunting the shit out of euros
Russia did had its share of real nazi collaborators, like ROA (Vlasov), RONA, and the usual collaborators, but if you see at the liberal narrations, libs always defend them.
It’s genuinely a difficult one to unpick, because at a surface take, M-R and the partition of Poland looks pretty bad! Then when part of the explanation is the purge of red army officers, it starts to almost look worse. You have to really dig into the fifth column developing in the USSR, Nazi ideology, how facts developed during the war and the escape of so many potential holocaust victims through soviet territory, among other things, before it starts to be comprehensible. And even after all that it’s still tempting at such a far remove to blame it on the purge! (Although I understand why that’s not realistic, it’s still difficult to sell to people with little historical knowledge or interest).
Stalin and the USSR were in an incredibly difficult position at the beginning of the war. We should honestly just be glad they won, but people are people (and libs are libs…)
because at a surface take, M-R and the partition of Poland looks pretty bad!
Only completely devoid of extremely pertinent information like the USSR contacting both Britain and France offering a million troops to pre-emptively invade Germany to stop it.
Like, that information is just as much “surface” information too but is entirely left out of every attempt to spin this as something the Soviets wanted and were pleased about.
Sure, but I feel like most people are that devoid of context. I’m not talking about my own understanding to be clear, just the difficulty of discussing it with the general public.
They are but similarly it also makes breaking it down childs play with anyone who isn’t a toolbag because raising just this highlights how misleading the information they have been given is. When the other side so obviously misleads people it is very easy to cast doubt on everything else that side ever said.
What we lack is simply the scale and repetition that they have.
I think a basic timeline helps, long before the Nazis invaded Poland. The many overtures by the USSR to build an antifascist alliance that were rebuked by the eventual NATO powers. The various capitulations to Nazis. The French and British were just surprised that the Nazis went West rather than East after invading Poland. WWII only begins with the invasion of Poland because of technicality (a diplomatic obligation to declare war despite not actually doing anything for months and months after) and because the Nazis’ next step was to rapidly defeat everyone on the mainland to the West (through France) in like five minutes. The USSR then bides its time, gaining industrial, agricultural, and military strength for the fight they know is coming - just a question of how soon. Only the Nazis are surprised when the Eastern front starts and it doesn’t go as smoothly as their Western front.
In the middle of that is the agreement to divide Poland if the Nazis invaded. Isolated and alone, with the other European powers betting against it’s the USSR tries to place itself in the strongest possible position for the later fight. The other Euros do nothing for Poland before, during, or after the war. The USSR “crimes” in Poland are executions of fascists, cops, antisemites (but I repeat myself eh?). The Polish government and military fall quite rapidly, become a government in exile only. Rather than all of Poland, Nazis temporarily get half, the USSR gets a buffer. Various surrounding states restore land recently stolen by Poland. Nobody really cares about the date of Poles and Poland except for the USSR that is rapidly collectivising and organizing them for both themselves and against Nazi occupation. When Nazis invaded, there were mass evacuations, evacuations impossible in Western Poland when the Nazis invaded and then later as well.
Yeah, I’m fairly well informed on the topic (but thanks for the more detailed breakdown! Definitely some stuff here for me!), I just find it difficult to discuss things like the winter war and the partition with, like, family members and stuff. Everyone is so propagandized!
It’s challenging to discuss with others because a liberal just needs 4 false narratives and the ability to Google their biases and we have to know a monthly breakdown of the whole period along with a countering narrative that’s drawn from stuff like the Soviet archives written about by 1 historian.
Sure, that’s pretty much my point. It’s a tough sell because the naive understanding of the situation that most people have, while completely incorrect, makes the soviets look incredibly bad. Not only that, but to properly describe the situation you have to describe events that also look pretty bad from a naive liberal perspective.
Yeah no doubt. And one of the challenges with having an expanded view of violence is that we can easily acknowledge many of the lesser (but still significant) violences listed for official bad guy socialist states but this is also the only thing liberals hear. Like I can describe the British-caused Bengal Famine as much as I’d like but mainstream liberals don’t think of brown people as human and it wasn’t literally shooting them so it doesn’t really register.
Yes, perhaps the most difficult part is fitting into the gap between “denying” violence done by AES states, which discredits you, and “confirming” their “atrocities”, which discredits the AES state in question, and you by extension. The soviet famine is a great example. You obviously can’t say it never happened (because it did!) but the moment you acknowledge it, people’s brains switch off. Never mind that historians at large don’t accept that a man made famine is even possible.
Someone more knowledgeable than me should make an infographic highlighting the “overtures” you mention
The soviets certainly don’t have to apologise for liberating western belarus and ukraine from just under two decades of polish occupation. Even without M-R they should have done that anyway to prevent Poland’s ethnocide.
the partition of Poland looks pretty bad
Look at the modern day borders of Poland and compare them to the regions occupied by the USSR in 1939.
Also look at the regions Poland took in the 1920s.
Look at a linguistic and ethnic map of these areas.
Poland in the 1930s was engaged in a ruthless Polonization campaign to settle their own Lebensraum with Polish aristocrats and land-owners, reducing the Belorussians and Ukrainians who lived in those territories to a serf caste.
The fact that Poland was a fascist state before Germany was is just swept under the rug. What Poland was doing in Belorussia and Ukraine is completely ignored. They were “wronged” by the USSR in 1939 because the USSR denied them their lebensraum.
And don’t forget that in the 1938 Munich crisis, Poland was right beside Hitler in partitioning Czechoslovakia.
It was a militaristic expansionist fascistic state and the British plan at Munich was to strengthen an anti-Soviet alliance between Germany and Poland.
The USSR was agitating to go in and fight germany in 1938. Just like the USSR was the only state actually willing to fight fascism in Spain in 1936.
The M-R pact was the USSR realizing far too late what game they were actually playing and the partition of Poland in 1939… that territory was not “Polish”, except Lviv.
Lmao they’re a nebulite as well
Another day another Knockout banger.
Most infuriating lib site on the planet.
