Gasoline cars produce, on average, about ten times more lifetime pollution compared to manufacturing pollution. So even if electric car manufacturing pollutes a bit more, it more than makes up for it over its lifetime of driving.
Your other claim that batteries can’t be recycled is false. And that recycling pollutes more. More than 90% of battery materials by mass can and do get recycled - and the expectation is to reach 98+%. Recycling process is expected to produce less pollution and be cheaper than mining the equivalent amounts of material.
I don’t get how the “lithium batteries can’t be recycled” idea passes the sniff test.
Lithium mining requires moving insane amounts of earth to reach the ore: often a pit mine. Said ore contains around 1-2% Lithium Oxide by weight – which still needs to be refined and processed into Lithium metal.
Yes, we know all of that. It’s still better than driving fossil fuels. Something that is only partially better is still better. It doesn’t mean we just keep doing what we have been because “oh but it’s only partially better”.
There is no silver bullet solution right now. Batteries get better and easier every year. Alternatives will crop up. You’re not proving your point, you just come off as unwilling to change but hiding behind thin “eco” reasoning.
Again, to really drive it home. We know they’re not perfect. They’re just better than the alternative. Better does not mean perfect.
Hate to be that guy, but it takes 20 tons of carbon to make a sedan and 5 tons to make the ev battery to run it (8 if you use the cheap kind). So even before the difference in emissions between gas and electricity come into play the ev is five or six years of driving behind the gas car it’s supposed to replace.
For a huge number of people the greenest car they can own is the one they already have.
That was literally, like, my exact point. Yes we know all of that, how many times do I have to say that? We literally know what you’re talking about.
It’s still better, over the life of the car you will come out better than a fossil fuel car. Consumption of anything anywhere pollutes, and the best option is to not buy a car at all (hello public transit funding, we need you). However, over the entire life of the car you will come out ahead, and the more EVs that are sold the easier it will be to produce. This month alone there are two firms who are claiming they have alternatives to lithium for the battery base. One claims they can use salt. We will continue to see improvements with battery production as it scales.
Please stop with the “gotcha” style and try to instead try to see other people’s sides. Yes, I take public transit and walk whenever I can, but in my city I still need a car for a few things, and my old car is dying. So, faced with buying a new car, I would rather have one that doesn’t pollute while I’m sitting in traffic that encourages auto makers to not just give in but to push green initiatives. Will it work? I don’t know, but it’s better than just giving up and saying “well acksually it’s still ruining our planet just slower”
Despite the environmental footprint of manufacturing lithium-ion batteries, this technology is much more climate-friendly than the alternatives, Shao-Horn says.
That link says that the battery alone takes 4-16 tons of carbon to produce. It doesn’t say anything about the actual chassis and other stuff in the car. So somewhere between 24 and 36 tons of carbon for a new ev to start rolling down the street versus the yearly emissions of the gas car it’s supposed to replace. based on the link you posted that’s six to nine years of emissions before you can even start comparing them mile for mile.
I’m not saying this to suggest that there’s no point in trying or that somehow evs aren’t greener than comparable gas cars but to state that if the goal is to make tremendous reductions in carbon output then a gigantic bubble of carbon rich consumption isn’t the way to go.
We can’t reduce carbon output in the short to medium term by replacing a bunch of cars. We can reduce it by not driving as much.
None of this is a gotcha or an attack on you personally. It’s just stating the fact that keeping existing cars on the road and reducing the amount they’re driven is a really viable path that doesn’t require the insanity of lithium batteries or for some new technology to replace them.
I tried to make that point in a way that put production up front as the best place to turn the carbon spigot off, but in case that’s not clear: consumers can’t change what gets produced and by extension how it is produced.
Yes, we know, but the alternative isn’t “just don’t buy one because it doesn’t matter anyway”, it’s “Do the best we can as consumers to make smart, green choices”. Vote with our wallets that we do want greener alternatives rather than giving up. If a battery comes along that is more eco friendly than lithium I’ll probably buy that one.
A better way to phrase what you said to encourage people to go green is to say “Absolutely going electric is a smart choice, it’ll reduce your personal emissions by a substantial amount, but remember that to public transit/walking are still the greenest options. We can also always demand from the companies we buy from that they should use greener manufacturing as well.”
Don’t just point out the flaws in a way that comes off as “We shouldn’t even try because what’s the point”. We can both be better ourselves and demand companies hold themselves to even higher standards, it’s not one or the other.
Sorry, sometimes it’s hard to make myself understood. Consumption is not in any way a solution to climate change.
Boycotts don’t work, you can’t change the carbon impact of production at the point of consumption because the carbon has already been released. Voting with your wallet doesn’t work.
We should not spend even one iota of time concerned with how to make greener choices as individuals and instead work on stopping pollution at the point of production.
If it’s not clear: climate change comes from the release of greenhouse gasses and that doesn’t happen more or less depending on what I swipe my credit card to buy.
The ~90,000 shipping freighters that operate daily use twice the amount of fuel than all ~2.5 billion cars that are on the roads globally. We’re electrifying the wrong shit.
It’s way easier to electrify cars than cargo ships, because you can refuel/recharge cars every few kilometres. This is simply not possible with ships, other more expensive technologies like hydrogen or artificial fuels are needed. Electrifying cars also helps to reduce other emissions like nitrogen oxides and particulate matter, which is good for your health.
And how do you plan on electrifying such massive ships?
Electrifying cars is easy and electrified railways have existed for more than a century now, but good luck electrifying airplanes or cargo ships, they’re just too big and don’t run on tracks
Electric cars are certainly better. The climate crisis is extremely bad. A significant percentage of the Earth will no longer be livable without AC within decades. Much of our ecosystems depended on a temperature range we won’t see again within our lifetimes. It’s much more likely to be our great filter than batteries are.
Someday we’ll envy how popular the Baby Boomers were in their old age. They didn’t understand, we do. We should be rioting, everywhere.
(I understand busses and trains are better still, I’m just addressing their not knowing which is worse)
It’s always “ah ha but did you know it’s only 80% better for the planet? Gotcha, idiot!” Like yeah, we know.
The best solution is not to drive at all, but if we’re forced to in this backwards country that has been mislead to believe public transport is a bad thing then we might as well take the option that’s 80% better rather than 0% better
deleted by creator
Gasoline cars produce, on average, about ten times more lifetime pollution compared to manufacturing pollution. So even if electric car manufacturing pollutes a bit more, it more than makes up for it over its lifetime of driving.
Your other claim that batteries can’t be recycled is false. And that recycling pollutes more. More than 90% of battery materials by mass can and do get recycled - and the expectation is to reach 98+%. Recycling process is expected to produce less pollution and be cheaper than mining the equivalent amounts of material.
I don’t get how the “lithium batteries can’t be recycled” idea passes the sniff test.
Lithium mining requires moving insane amounts of earth to reach the ore: often a pit mine. Said ore contains around 1-2% Lithium Oxide by weight – which still needs to be refined and processed into Lithium metal.
A battery is around 11% Lithium by weight.
There’s money to be made, and people are already on it.
deleted by creator
Yes, we know all of that. It’s still better than driving fossil fuels. Something that is only partially better is still better. It doesn’t mean we just keep doing what we have been because “oh but it’s only partially better”.
There is no silver bullet solution right now. Batteries get better and easier every year. Alternatives will crop up. You’re not proving your point, you just come off as unwilling to change but hiding behind thin “eco” reasoning.
Again, to really drive it home. We know they’re not perfect. They’re just better than the alternative. Better does not mean perfect.
Hate to be that guy, but it takes 20 tons of carbon to make a sedan and 5 tons to make the ev battery to run it (8 if you use the cheap kind). So even before the difference in emissions between gas and electricity come into play the ev is five or six years of driving behind the gas car it’s supposed to replace.
For a huge number of people the greenest car they can own is the one they already have.
That was literally, like, my exact point. Yes we know all of that, how many times do I have to say that? We literally know what you’re talking about.
It’s still better, over the life of the car you will come out better than a fossil fuel car. Consumption of anything anywhere pollutes, and the best option is to not buy a car at all (hello public transit funding, we need you). However, over the entire life of the car you will come out ahead, and the more EVs that are sold the easier it will be to produce. This month alone there are two firms who are claiming they have alternatives to lithium for the battery base. One claims they can use salt. We will continue to see improvements with battery production as it scales.
Please stop with the “gotcha” style and try to instead try to see other people’s sides. Yes, I take public transit and walk whenever I can, but in my city I still need a car for a few things, and my old car is dying. So, faced with buying a new car, I would rather have one that doesn’t pollute while I’m sitting in traffic that encourages auto makers to not just give in but to push green initiatives. Will it work? I don’t know, but it’s better than just giving up and saying “well acksually it’s still ruining our planet just slower”
Oh and by the way, your numbers are wrong.
That link says that the battery alone takes 4-16 tons of carbon to produce. It doesn’t say anything about the actual chassis and other stuff in the car. So somewhere between 24 and 36 tons of carbon for a new ev to start rolling down the street versus the yearly emissions of the gas car it’s supposed to replace. based on the link you posted that’s six to nine years of emissions before you can even start comparing them mile for mile.
I’m not saying this to suggest that there’s no point in trying or that somehow evs aren’t greener than comparable gas cars but to state that if the goal is to make tremendous reductions in carbon output then a gigantic bubble of carbon rich consumption isn’t the way to go.
We can’t reduce carbon output in the short to medium term by replacing a bunch of cars. We can reduce it by not driving as much.
None of this is a gotcha or an attack on you personally. It’s just stating the fact that keeping existing cars on the road and reducing the amount they’re driven is a really viable path that doesn’t require the insanity of lithium batteries or for some new technology to replace them.
I tried to make that point in a way that put production up front as the best place to turn the carbon spigot off, but in case that’s not clear: consumers can’t change what gets produced and by extension how it is produced.
Yes, we know, but the alternative isn’t “just don’t buy one because it doesn’t matter anyway”, it’s “Do the best we can as consumers to make smart, green choices”. Vote with our wallets that we do want greener alternatives rather than giving up. If a battery comes along that is more eco friendly than lithium I’ll probably buy that one.
A better way to phrase what you said to encourage people to go green is to say “Absolutely going electric is a smart choice, it’ll reduce your personal emissions by a substantial amount, but remember that to public transit/walking are still the greenest options. We can also always demand from the companies we buy from that they should use greener manufacturing as well.”
Don’t just point out the flaws in a way that comes off as “We shouldn’t even try because what’s the point”. We can both be better ourselves and demand companies hold themselves to even higher standards, it’s not one or the other.
Sorry, sometimes it’s hard to make myself understood. Consumption is not in any way a solution to climate change.
Boycotts don’t work, you can’t change the carbon impact of production at the point of consumption because the carbon has already been released. Voting with your wallet doesn’t work.
We should not spend even one iota of time concerned with how to make greener choices as individuals and instead work on stopping pollution at the point of production.
If it’s not clear: climate change comes from the release of greenhouse gasses and that doesn’t happen more or less depending on what I swipe my credit card to buy.
The ~90,000 shipping freighters that operate daily use twice the amount of fuel than all ~2.5 billion cars that are on the roads globally. We’re electrifying the wrong shit.
It’s way easier to electrify cars than cargo ships, because you can refuel/recharge cars every few kilometres. This is simply not possible with ships, other more expensive technologies like hydrogen or artificial fuels are needed. Electrifying cars also helps to reduce other emissions like nitrogen oxides and particulate matter, which is good for your health.
And how do you plan on electrifying such massive ships?
Electrifying cars is easy and electrified railways have existed for more than a century now, but good luck electrifying airplanes or cargo ships, they’re just too big and don’t run on tracks
Start with banning nonessentials such as cruise ships and get rid of private jets while we’re at it, to start at least.
Electric cars are certainly better. The climate crisis is extremely bad. A significant percentage of the Earth will no longer be livable without AC within decades. Much of our ecosystems depended on a temperature range we won’t see again within our lifetimes. It’s much more likely to be our great filter than batteries are.
Someday we’ll envy how popular the Baby Boomers were in their old age. They didn’t understand, we do. We should be rioting, everywhere.
(I understand busses and trains are better still, I’m just addressing their not knowing which is worse)
People love this “gotcha”, but really it just shows how terrible cars are on a fundamental level.
The solution isn’t electric cars, it’s electric micromobility and public transport.
It’s always “ah ha but did you know it’s only 80% better for the planet? Gotcha, idiot!” Like yeah, we know.
The best solution is not to drive at all, but if we’re forced to in this backwards country that has been mislead to believe public transport is a bad thing then we might as well take the option that’s 80% better rather than 0% better