Schoolgirls who refused to change out of the loose-fitting robes have been sent home with a letter to parents on secularism.
French public schools have sent dozens of girls home for refusing to remove their abayas – long, loose-fitting robes worn by some Muslim women and girls – on the first day of the school year, according to Education Minister Gabriel Attal.
Defying a ban on the garment seen as a religious symbol, nearly 300 girls showed up on Monday morning wearing abayas, Attal told the BFM broadcaster on Tuesday.
Most agreed to change out of the robe, but 67 refused and were sent home, he said.
The government announced last month it was banning the abaya in schools, saying it broke the rules on secularism in education that have already seen headscarves forbidden on the grounds they constitute a display of religious affiliation.
The move gladdened the political right but the hard left argued it represented an affront to civil liberties.
The 34-year-old minister said the girls refused entry on Monday were given a letter addressed to their families saying that “secularism is not a constraint, it is a liberty”.
If they showed up at school again wearing the gown there would be a “new dialogue”.
He added that he was in favour of trialling school uniforms or a dress code amid the debate over the ban.
Uniforms have not been obligatory in French schools since 1968 but have regularly come back on the political agenda, often pushed by conservative and far-right politicians.
Attal said he would provide a timetable later this year for carrying out a trial run of uniforms with any schools that agree to participate.
“I don’t think that the school uniform is a miracle solution that solves all problems related to harassment, social inequalities or secularism,” he said.
But he added: “We must go through experiments, try things out” in order to promote debate, he said.
‘Worst consequences’
Al Jazeera’s Natacha Butler, reporting from Paris before the ban came into force said Attal deemed the abaya a religious symbol which violates French secularism.
“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,” she said.
“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”
On Monday, President Emmanuel Macron defended the controversial measure, saying there was a “minority” in France who “hijack a religion and challenge the republic and secularism”.
He said it leads to the “worst consequences” such as the murder three years ago of teacher Samuel Paty for showing Prophet Muhammad caricatures during a civics education class.
“We cannot act as if the terrorist attack, the murder of Samuel Paty, had not happened,” he said in an interview with the YouTube channel, HugoDecrypte.
An association representing Muslims has filed a motion with the State Council, France’s highest court for complaints against state authorities, for an injunction against the ban on the abaya and the qamis, its equivalent dress for men.
The Action for the Rights of Muslims (ADM) motion is to be examined later on Tuesday.
For those who don’t get this, ‘Laïcité’ is what the French call the secularism which is part of their constitution.
Plenty are as serious about it, as many in the US are about free speech or the right to own a gun.
Obviously this is also in part a more recent phenomenon. France has a large Muslim population and laïcité is arguably interpreted more strictly by those who wish to combat the influence of Islam on French mainstream culture.
In Quebec we usually have to explain the difference between secularism and laïcité by mentioning that secularism is the separation of church and State by accommodating all religions equally while laïcité is the separation of church and State by excluding religion from the public domain. Quebec’s take on laïcité is more relaxed than France’s.
I think what’s so annoying about these laws is that they go à contresens, by strengthening religion in civic life. These girls are now forced to go to religious schools if they want to continue wearing their harmless cultural dress. In fact, religious schools have exploded in population since the laws on laïcité have passed in France. Many of those girls would have otherwise integrated into French society and become bored of religion, just like Catholic children do, if they went to a normal school. I remember listening to a French philosopher on a debate program say “Seuls les pays qui ont interdit le port du voile ont fini par l’imposer”. I don’t know if that’s literally true, but I think banning makes many muslims feel defiant and more passionate about their religious identity.
It’s especially galling in Canada, which has one of the most well-integrated and moderate Muslim minority populations in the world. A law like this is actively harmful to the goal of lessening “la pertinence de la religion dans la vie civile”. It goes against its own goals, to solve a problem that doesn’t exist.
Since you’re mentioning Canada, at the same time in Quebec (the only place with a similar law) it’s only for government employees in a position of authority so I don’t think it’s really an issue considering we already impose restrictions on the same employees when it comes to displaying political signs and it received support from many people that are part of the groups most affected because they don’t want to have left a country where religion is part of politics only to go live somewhere where it’s trying to do the same thing. Creating a barrier between the two where we say “If your religion is so important to you that you can’t accept to remove the sign you’re wearing while at work, it might mean you are not ready to represent a laïc State” isn’t a bad thing. I wouldn’t support a ban for students or all government employees and so on (like France is doing).
I’ve heard this argument that it’s “not so bad” in Quebec, but I don’t know why we need to accept any “badness” at all. What countervailing benefit justifies the cost? Students will not convert to Sikhism or Islam because they’re taught by a Sikh or Muslim teacher. It’s a non-issue.
Contrary to what you say, the affected groups are far from supportive. In fact, I would not be surprised one bit if, like in France, Muslims in Quebec have hardened their views, becoming more devout, in response to la loi 21.
I said it’s not an issue and that it’s not a bad thing, not that it’s “not so bad” and that we’re tolerating “badness”.
It’s not about conversion, it’s about discrimination or the appearance of discrimination by an employee of the State.
How does a Jewish defendant feel when a judge that’s visibly Muslim makes a decision against them? Well that judge represents the State and the State needs to be neutral and to have the appearance of neutrality in front of the people it has authority over.
And again, that judge couldn’t have a hammer and sickle pin on their robe even though the freedom of political opinion and of expressing it is as protected as the freedom of religious expression. Can you imagine a visibly communist judge making a decision against a private business suing the government? Yeah, that wouldn’t fly.
How does a non-white defendant feel when a visibly white judge, which are most judges, makes a decision against them? Or a man rules against a woman who is a rape victim? Such things happen all the time. People seem perfectly happy with state representatives being white, without quotas or positive discrimination to improve diversity. Why all this concern for “social justice” only when it comes to these minority religions?
Do you really think there is no “badness” at all… for anyone? Some people have had to make a difficult decision between career and identity. You might be blasé about that decision, but for some people it would be as difficult as being forbidden from speaking your native language, or forbidden from being openly gay.
The difference here is that skin color and gender aren’t a choice, whereas wearing a religious sign, just like wearing a sign of your political allegiance, is a choice.
Unless you tell me that wearing a kippah isn’t a choice for the wearer, which would be in direct violation of our charter or rights and freedom…
The people concerned also get affected if their religious sign can’t be worn because of uniforms, they don’t go and sue employers that tell them they can’t wear a safety hat over a turban or that they can’t drive a transport van while wearing a burqa that hinders their view. If their sign is so important that they can’t satisfy the criterias for the job they just go work in another field and that’s it.
The State doesn’t have to guarantee access to jobs to people who don’t fit the criterias for the job, including the responsibility to appear neutral. The perfect State employee in a position of authority would be a robot that looks nothing like a human with a gender neutral voice, since we can’t have that we’re stuck telling people that they need to adopt a neutral appearance to work certain jobs or they can go do the equivalent job in the private sector if it exists or they can take other tasks which don’t put them in a position of authority, including some very good jobs for the State!
Laïcité should be the accommodation of all religion. Laïcité is tolerance. But the fascists are turning it into bullying religions.
That’s secularism. It’s as if you just didn’t read what I wrote.
So what is the rebuilding of Notre-dame de Paris ? Secularism too ?
Fascism it is.
Is it getting rebuilt for it’s religious importance or historical importance? Do they rebuild all churches that burn down?
Hint: Answers start with h and n
Actually the State does pay for a big part of church maintenance: link.
That’s just hypocrisy here. The building is used for religious ceremonies. There’s nothing more religious than this church.
Now mind you I’m not against rebuilding it, because I’m not an anti religion zealot. I’m merely pointing out the hypocrisy of hunting Muslims out of schools in the name of laicity while rebuilding a church with state money.
Funny how you skipped both questions
Definitely shouldn’t be accommodating to ancient cults. I don’t want people who never grew out of believing in Santa to decide how to educate children
That’s Quebec’s take, government employees in a position of authority (including teachers) can’t wear religious signs, the rest is free to do what they want (unlike France’s version where students can’t wear religious signs either).
good summary
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To be fair, it is more correct to say « France is a racist country hiding behind laïcité and feminism to justify their Islamophobia. »
All other religious symbols are also banned (in schools), so this argument seems pretty weak. One can agree or disagree, but considering religion a private matter that should stay out of the public buildings is a perfectly legitimate stance, in my opinion.
As you said, religion is a private matter.
While the school institution should absolutely avoid anything that has to do with religion, the students are still private entities. Taking away their freedom to express themselves in any way is one of the worst things to do to a young person and will only have the opposite effect.
Twist or turn it as you want, this law is just racism they wrapped up nicely.
I believe there are a huge number of ways we want to avoid young people express themselves in school. I am thinking for example about Nazi simbols, but the examples are countless. It’s just that according to you religion is not “one of those things”. I bet you wouldn’t defend someone to express himself by coming to school in full KKK outfit in the same way, would you?
Also, given the fact that the law applies to everyone, I don’t find it racist, and not even discriminatory. Again, Muslim people are disproportionally affected just because Islam has many of such symbols and garments, not because the law targets them specifically.Christians’s veils are banned as well (like the one nuns wear),the difference is that only few people in specific contexts wear them.
No one ever was removed from school for wearing a Christian cross.
Banning religion from public space is actually against the French constitution, and it’s not a fair fight against religion, it’s racism against Muslim.
Christian crosses are actually forbidden in French school (from what I read). I don’t know if anybody ever got removed from school from it, but the rule is there. I can’t talk on what is against or not French constitution as I am not qualified to do so (not even for my own country), but I trust that if that’s the case, courts will determine that.
A final remark, being Muslim is a choice, is not a birth condition nor a race (or ethnicity). This means that at most you can talk of religious discrimination, not racism. Coincidentally religious discrimination is very common in very religious countries (including Muslim countries), both towards other religions and even more against atheists or apostates.
No. The crosses banned are the big ones that the teacher would put on the wall. People are free to wear any pendant they like.
The teacher need to not show any religious sign because it represent the state.
Forbidding people to dress how they like or even show that they have a religion is fascism. It’s like forbidding same sex couple to show that they love eachother.
And I can’t care less about Muslim theocracies, they are fascists and that is the problem. What I care about is that France is becoming fascist too, and I am ashamed of it. Becoming fascist to fight fascism is an irony that doesn’t make it better.
Accprding to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools you seem incorrect. The point is exactly that of preventing religious displays in schools, and I wouldn’t call it fascism. In fact, fascist regimes have done exactly the opposite, giving huge visibility to religion and (the case in Italy) making Christianity religion of the state.
The comparison with same sex couple showing displays of affection seems completely ridiculous to me, especially because Muslims are disproportionally affected only because Islam is a religion in which there are more symbols, but it is not targeted specifically against then.
What is important is that people can, if they choose to do so, freely profess their own religion, or the lack thereof. This does not mean that this can be done in any space, and I am personally a big supporter for schools being very neutral spaces.
When a school ban children because of their religion it’s not really neutral.
Let’s not pretend children have a choice how they dress.
The alienation that children feel when they are forced to look different from their peers is a strong point for school provided uniforms.
Hey! Another fascist classical idea!
Its funny that Islamists use the term “Islamophobia” considering they teach an homophobic culture themselves. Dont ask for tolerance if you are not willing to be tolerant yourself.
Fuck all zealots, especially the fascist ones.
Fuck all zealots
Exactly. Also muslim.
I wish we would put half as much energy into fighting racism and fascism.
And homophobia
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That is far closer from the truth indeed.
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Yes, let’s exempt them from proper education. That’ll solve the problem.
“Since 2004, in France, religious signs and symbols have been banned in schools, including headscarves, kippas and crosses,”
I agree with it, not in the “hah, we are dunking on minorities” way, but just because I’m personally so sick of religion being a part of every waking moment of life and being used as a cudgel to influence public policy, media, and what choices people can make when it comes to important personal choices, such as healthcare. Of course, this is being viewed through my American lens, but we’ve seen similar erosions in public institutions due to so-called “religious rights” despite being a secular country. While France’s version is fairly blunt, it seeks to normalize and equalize everyone, which I think is a decent goal.
If it wasn’t religion, I’m positive it would be something else. But I think it’s very healthy to maintain separation of religion while at public institutions, particularly in a world where religious extremism is on the rise.
France is fairly blunt in most ways.
When you come to live in France, you are french. If you don’t consider yourself french, you are just a tourist.
This is my interpretation of the attitude my French friends have.
When you come to live in France, you are french.
I don’t think that’s how most of the immigrants feel.
Then they should move elsewhere. When you immigrate to a country it’s on you to conform. I as a gay man would never consider moving to a Muslim country where my lifestyle is rejected. If otters feel their values don’t align with secularism then don’t come here.
Yes, they should but relocating is expensive and after couple of decades of discrimination most of them are not very rich. France brought them from their colonies (not literally of course they they put their immigration policy in place because they actually wanted immigrants) and then bocked all opportunities from them. Now they are shocked that migrants are not happy living as second class citizens…
I am glad other gay men think the same way I am.
I am all for tolerance and acceptance, but not of opposition, religion extremists and sexism.
lol no. Youre french when they can put you on a pedestal for how becoming french has helped you achieve something. But god forbid you do something that is not considered favorable by the french. Then you are an immigrant and you being an immigrant is the cause of all
The people this affects the most aren’t the people using religion as a cudgel.
Which isn’t to say that e.g. orthodox Jews and Muslims don’t wield religion as a cudgel when they have the opportunity - just look at East Ramapo NY or Israel. But they don’t have any kind of broad institutional power in the US or France.
In the US, the big problem is dominionist Christianity, and there’s no religious requirement for them to wear something in particular.
Laicity is tolerance. What’s happening currently is the opposite of tolerance. It’s extremism the same as the most zealous fanatics, it’s merely fascist zeal instead of religious zeal.
In EVIL CEE CEE PEE CHYNA, Muslim children are denied education if they wear their cultural attire to school.
bit idea:
shove this in libs’ faces and say “China has already annexed France, it’s over”
Okay colonialism is bad but think of how good the food would be.
pls Xi come and liberate us
Racism against children must be one of these “western values” I’ve been hearing so much about.
“Gabriel Attal, the education minister, says that no one should walk into a classroom wearing something which could suggest what their religion is.”
I was initially torn on this, but as long as it’s for all religions, I support it. I firmly believe that I shouldn’t know your religion unless I ask. Religion is toxic.
I do think you should have the freedom to wear religious signifiers as an adult. I just don’t approve. But I don’t want to stop you. Children in school? This is the same (to me) as requiring them to leave their phones at home.
In the Americas there were schools for native American children where they forced them to dress, eat, speak, and behave “properly” and not practice their religion. The goal was to eliminate their culture and make them homogeneously American or Canadian. (They also killed a fucking ton) This sort of nationalism has generally been looked back on as a mistake and a horrible atrocity. Why should it be acceptable towards other religious groups?
These kids aren’t being taken from their families. They aren’t being forced to give up their religion in their homes. These are not the same. This isn’t about “other religious groups.” It’s all religions while at school, and I’m fine with that.
The goal is to replace religion with nationalism, which isn’t an admirable goal. They may not literally say it out loud, but it’s pretty obvious.
The goal is to replace religion with nationalism
It really isn’t, though?
I’m not in support of nationalism. I don’t know if what you said is accurate or not. I simply approve of keeping religion out of schools.
This is like the democrats who applaud gun control even when it is used with surgical precision to prevent black communities from defending themselves from police violence. “I don’t support police violence, I simply approve of gun control”.
As much as you wish, I don’t think you can because it is a part of one’s life. Whether you are Atheist or practice a religion, the beliefs and practices you have are in my opinion fundamental for you. Let’s take the reverse, would you as an Atheist pretend to believe in a certain religion for 4-6 hours a day just so you could learn? You can take this and experiment with all kinds of situations. Sure, religion shouldn’t be taught in schools, religion has nothing to do with schools but while we shouldn’t teach religion we shouldn’t also take religion out of the human. Your beliefs are fundamental to you. I think there is a certain level of tolerance we should have towards other people as long as they don’t interfere and infringe on the freedoms and liberties of others. Having the freedom to wear what you want and act the way you want while you don’t bother others should be allowed.
If you want to have a private school where everyone follows a specific rule set, regulation, specific formal clothing etc. Go ahead, make your own.
But I do feel public schools as a public good should allow everyone to learn while also not requiring one to remove parts of things that form one’s identity.
would you as an Atheist pretend to believe in a certain religion for 4-6 hours a day
France wants people to not show their religion in school. That’s different from pretending to have another, or no religion.
Like in moments when I don’t wear my favorite sports team’s insignias, I’m not pretending to be fan of another team instead.
I generally wish to respect others. But I can’t help but note that mass shooters are frequently deeply Christian. I’m not advocating for someone to pretend that they believe in another religion or that they don’t believe in their own. I’m mildly offended by people who advertise their religion by wearing a cross above their clothing. I think they should tuck it below so that I don’t know what their religion is because frankly, I find their faith offensive. It’s unfortunate that some religions require that their faithful observe traditions that make it obvious that they are faithful.
Religion is, at its root, a system of control and an excuse for bad behavior. At it’s worst it is a grift and a shortcut to genocide. I know that there are many religious people who are good and descent (my mother, for example), but I still resent that her religion guides her politics in ways that are illogical. I had a friend who believed in 1999 that the earth was ~5000 years old and that dinosaurs were a test of his faith by god. Religion is holding us back.
Okay, so how is this different from saying “I don’t care if they’re gay, as long as it’s in the privacy of their own homes”? It’s the same sentiment about what is (to some) also an immutable characteristic about their personality
This is a strong argument and initially left me speechless. However, religion is something you choose. I don’t think people choose to be gay.
I was initially torn on this, but as long as it’s for all religions, I support it.
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread
Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.
Would you also support a policy that nobody named @some_guy should be allowed to talk, no matter who they are.
Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief
there are multiple such as Islam and Sikhism to give two examples. This law is just an example of religious persecution against religions that don’t fit in with the French idea of which religions a French person should have
Your right should have said there’s multiple religions it was discriminating against just highlighting how it lines up with Frances history of Islamophobia.
Yea they made it so nobody could wear religious cultural clothes but there’s only one religion that includes wearing those clothes as a belief.
One, this is not true. Two, this includes other symbols like pendants
Presumably if a bunch of Mormons or Mennonites or whatever else set up in France and all their kids dressed the same way, the school would step in on that too. Maybe they wouldn’t, but then the problem isn’t the policy it’s biased enforcement.
The first is a good argument. And I support breaking that law.
The second is a good argument in that I wasn’t factoring the requirement (which I kinda don’t care about because I reject religion, so I know that I’m wrong even though I reject religion, fuck religion). Were religion not so toxic, I would have more sympathy. In this case, I’m gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.
The third is just silly.
I’m gonna sound like a real fuckwad, but assimilate.
can’t believe you just said “facing persecution for your religious faith simply don’t be a member of the religious minority being persecuted”
Being religious is a choice, not a birth defect
It’s not a choice when they indoctrinate kids in it, which all religions do.
At which point it becomes child abuse. And the state should step in. Let’s not forget that France also doesn’t permit the display of any religious symbolism instate institutions including Christian. Either these kids are free to choose a different item of clothing, or they’re being abused by their family. Simple.
Every kid of belivers is being rased in their faith, worldwide. It is religious indoctrination and frankly i agree that this is child abuse, but it’s not illegal anywhere. People refraining from this and allowing the children to choose are very rare. And even then it might still not exactly be the choice, in basically all societies there is considerable peer and social pressure to conform to its values.
“Just assimilate to Christian culture, Muslims. I’m anti-religion of all kinds, btw.”
You are too caught up in liberal abstraction to allow yourself to understand the material reality.
The kids aren’t being made to attend church on Sunday. They’re being made to be part of a secular society, one that takes its secularism more seriously than many other countries do.
Pure reactionary sophistry. They are not made to go to church, but they still get the Christian Sabbath off but not Muslim Jumu’ah (their equivalent, midday prayer) on Fridays. France is “secular” but it just so happens that the laws of its “secularism” cut in a direction that wildly favors Christianity.
You claim to be a communist, don’t you? You should know this quote:
The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.
– Anatole France
As I said, liberal abstraction that obscures the deliberate material impact of the laws.
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I was taking an opportunity to demonstrate a point with what you said, not suggesting that all bread stealing should be legalized.
Your ideology is a joke. “Surely, some girl wearing too baggy a dress will hamper education and heighten religious differences. No, we must teach these children tolerance by socializing them in an environment where we have eliminated any visible deviations from the dominant (liberal Christian) culture. Then, when they go out on the street and see people who look different, they will in fact be more tolerant of people with traits alien to how they were socialized.”
Every word you say is just laundering reactionary bullshit under a veil of virtue.
Christian Sabbath off but not Muslim Jumu’ah
hear me out: that just might be, really far stretch I know, but it just might be because the western weekend formed out of the Jewish Sabbath, which was adopted by Christianity. However it is not anymore the justification for having it. The only reason Saturday and Sunday are the weekend is because nobody bothered moving the date after the religious meaning was largely lost on the general population. Religion in Europe is in steep decline, unlike in certain other parts of the western world.
France has a population of ~40% Atheist/Agnostics. If you seriously think Christianity dictates the laws in France you are delusional.
Lmao conflating Christian culture with Secularism, classic blunder
Wow. So literally saying they should just assimilate, so much for that whole “they have to respect our culture because we respect theirs”
Also yea the third point was stupid, it was to illustrate how dumb your argument was.
Bit then you just came out and admitted to being a bigot and leapfrogging my point.
I am bigoted against religion. I otherwise accept everyone for who they are. I have no shame in taking this stance.
The point people are trying to make is that it’s not the religion that’s being targeted, but the minority non white culture, and it’s being done in a way to hide its true intent, which you are supporting based on its appearance.
This has nothing to do with secularism and everything to do with punishing and invalidating nonwhite culture
I suspect that you’re right and if that’s the case, that’s terrible. I would support removal of religion from schools simply on the basis that it’s the source of most of the world’s wars. In the US, I think we should take the gloves off and churches should pay taxes. I detest that it causes people to vote and behave irrationally and is used as a smoke screen to excuse bad behavior. My support for kicking religion out of schools is based in that and does not apply as a tool to suppress non-western peoples.
It’s unfortunate that what you’re suggesting is probably the real reason. Put me in charge and it really will be because I’m sick of religion in a completely colorblind fashion.
world’s wars
You may have a leg to stand on in terms of premodern history, but for the last 150 years most wars have been due to capitalism, not religion. You are not exactly incorrect, but you are in my view taking symptoms as the disease, when we really need to zoom out, religion itself isn’t the base level problem, its authoritative structures not derived from the consent and for the betterment of the people, religion is but a powerful historical tool
Well if we look at the Romans, Assyrians, British, French, and Germans and their wars it’s abundantly clear that most of their wars were for the aquisition of wealth. The vast majority of wars even in the middle ages were openly about arguments between noble families over land
I would support removal of religion from schools simply on the basis that it’s the source of most of the world’s wars.
This is false. It was used as the pretext for most of the world’s wars, just as secular equality is used as the pretext for this law, but the actual cause of those and virtually all wars lies in material motivations (land, resources, etc), just as the true objective of the law is to forcibly assimilate minorities.
Yea bigots generally aren’t shameful about their bigotry they just usually try to tap dance around the word bigot, good for you for being honest I guess.
LOL
What the fuck I thought Christopher Hitchens died
Dawkins and Harris yet live, unfortunately
My North African grandfather lost a leg to untreated necrosis defending that gallic shithole from nazism, they can go assimilate his rotted leg
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An Abaya is just a flowing robe.
This ban is like an American school saying you’re allowed to wear cowboy hats but not sombreros because sombreros are associated with catholicism, in that they are mostly associated with the culture of a predominately catholic country.
This is like banning kids from wearing rainbows because it signifies their values.
I support a ban on cowboy boots, too.
I disagree, the Abaya is not just a flowing robe.
It is a garment that is required by the Sharia law (see Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries where women are not allowed to choose what they wear).
Allowing this is the first step in letting religion in the public schools in France, where it has always been explicitly banned.
And it is very unlike banning rainbows, those are a symbol used to promote acceptance of the diversity of others, something religions struggle with (ever notice how religion is closely tied with extremism?)
Another factor to take into account is that these young girl may be forced by their family to wear such a garment, imposing upon them something they may not be old enough to refuse.
Also, look up the paradox of intolerance, as allowing anyone to do as they please causes the rise of extremism.
This is a very hyperbolic take on that paradox.
An article of clothing can’t be religious on its own. Saudi Arabia may have done the wrong thing by requiring this specific article of clothing but banning it is also bad.
A girl may want to wear a loose fitting dress for any number of reasons. Some people are just more modest than others and that shouldn’t be punished.
Looking at abaya online, and as a westerner I actually kinda like the style of them as well. I could see them being work as a strictly fashionable article of clothing.
An article of clothing can’t be religious on its own
Really? What about a kippa ? Or a priest’s robes ?
The kippa is forbidden in french schools for this very same reason, it signals religion.
Loose fitting dresses are not forbidden, abayas are. They are a specific kind of loose fitting dresses. One that signals religion.
I don’t see them working as a fashion article, but that may just be my taste.
I really appreciate you engaging in more than just one liners.
I disagree, the Abaya is not just a flowing robe.
It is a garment that is required by the Sharia law (see Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries where women are not allowed to choose what they wear).
From le Monde
[Saudi Arabia] Since 2022 (…) has outlawed the wearing of abaya for women during examinations.
It is not a religious garment. It is a cultural garment. You’re right that it is often worn by Muslim women/girls to achieve islamic notions of modesty. But it’s predominately worn by people strongly influenced by Arab culture, not muslims everywhere.
I agree that countries should not generally be dictating what people are allowed to wear.
Allowing this is the first step in letting religion in the public schools in France, where it has always been explicitly banned.
Except it’s not the first step in letting religion in schools. It was already allowed and then was banned. The pendulum is swinging away from religious tolerance. It would be more accurate to view the ban as the next step in a series of measures further disembracing France’s ethnic minorities.
And it is very unlike banning rainbows, those are a symbol used to promote acceptance of the diversity of others
So you support symbols of the acceptance of the diversity of others. But you do not support actual acceptance of cultural diversity.
ever notice how religion is closely tied with extremism?
Yes. Too many religions have dark histories/presents.
Another factor to take into account is that these young girl may be forced by their family to wear such a garment, imposing upon them something they may not be old enough to refuse.
I think the best way to help people in situations like this is to get them into environments where they can make strong relationships with people outside their family’s religion. Like public schools.
Also, look up the paradox of intolerance, as allowing anyone to do as they please causes the rise of extremism.
I’m familiar with the concept and agree that limitations to freedom are necessary to protect freedom. But is it intolerance to wear an Abaya or is it intolerance to forbid unfamiliar styles of clothing?
I applaud France’s goal of a secular society. But I think this policy is a misstep.
Look at images of abaya compared to duster cardigans and maybe you’ll see what I mean.
Then what’s the big deal? No hats.
The rule isn’t no flowing robes.
The rule is “no flowing robes on kids suspected of being muslim”.
So let the french kids who are not muslim, wear these robes and see what happens.
Dont compare an Abaya to a rainbow. They are nothing a like.
as requiring them to leave their phones at home
you can’t just leave religion and culture at the door and freedom of conscience isn’t a right only adults are entitled to nor is it comparable to playing on your phone
Are kids meaningfully capable of exercising their freedom of conscience though? I’m not suggesting that every religious parent would kick their children out of the house for not dressing a certain way, but I am saying that every religious parent puts their finger on the scale of their kids’ decision. Schools can and should seek to eliminate these kinds of cultural differences within the student body because it teaches kids to segregate themselves, that’s why school uniforms are generally a good thing.
Are kids meaningfully capable of exercising their freedom of conscience though
arguably not but you could also make that argument in favour of all children being forced to wear islamic dress.
yes religious parents put their finger on the scale of the kids decision but so do non-religious parents with regards to their kids religious views that’s just how raising children within a culture works. It’s not a lifetime commitment the same freedom of conscience that means they have a right to practice their faith also means they have a right to abandon it if once they are older they change their minds.
ols can and should seek to eliminate these kinds of cultural differences within the student body because it teaches kids to segregate themselves, that’s why school uniforms are generally a good thing.
school uniforms are a good thing but exemptions to uniform rules on religious grounds have been a long recorded tradition. When the British forced sepoys to use cartridges that meant they had to partially consume beef and pork fat were the Indians wrong to compain or were the British merely removing cultural differences between the Muslims, Hindus, and British.
It’s France they’re very xenophobic. Just look at how they treat the Corsicans, Brentons, Basques and Catalans.
Night and day to even a few hundred metres across the road in Spain or Andorra.
People should be allowed to wear what they want. That said, nobody should voluntarily wear these terrible symbols of sexism and oppression. The literal religious purpose of the abaya and even the hijab is to promote modesty, with the rationale that men can’t control themselves and it’s women’s responsibility to do that for them. Fuck that message and fuck the ideology that it perpetuates.
New criminal offense: Learning while Muslim.
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abuse their children
Its a dress.
literally lmao
Like the school year started three days ago here in
and there have now been several examples of “abaya” dresses being stopped despite not “being abayas”; and the reverse as well (and of course there would be; they’re fucking casual dresses, I’m fairly certain you’d get a different answer on whether one is or isn’t even from fucking textile experts or something). Often with the deciding factor being the color of the skin of the person wearing it.The whole thing is a racist trip; along with a sadly common recurrent theme in french politics to divert the national attention when other shit is going on
It’s a religious garment women are forced to wear because men can’t control themselves. It’s literally the definition of “oppression”
Let me, a smart white man, tell you dumb brown people what your religious garments actually represent
I think its more opresive to force someone to undress in public when they dont want to.
undress in public
That seems like a dishonest wording, suggesting they would be publicly visible while undressing.
The article talks about “change out of”. I assume this is done with the normal level of privacy: In a separate room, or a cabin.
Unless the girl in question puts on a similar garment before leaving, the end result is that she ends up undressed in public.
also the french had soldiers on beaches ripping off islamic garments there is no reason to trust they would handle this with any sensitivity whatsoever
Why did you immediately jump to the conclusion that these kids aren’t wearing their abayas voluntarily?
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I don’t want religion in schools, outside that, you’re still free to practice what you want, but keep religion out of education. France got this one right
An abaya isn’t religious, they’re just worn in places that are usually Muslim and often worn by Muslims. This is racist discrimination.
even if it was religious (which it partially is) muslims have a right to practice their faith. Keep religion out of education is a slogan that means don’t let religious groups control the content of educational content but has been coopted in this thread to mean “don’t allow children the right to practice their parents faith”
I agree with the first point, and I think if they want to promote secularism (which is good) they should go about it by educating people in philosophy and logical reasoning as an additional class. Although, I still feel saying ‘practice their parents’ faith’ is problematic. I don’t think any kid should be taught that one religion is true since they can’t really logically think or reason and are very emotionally immature, at least before being a teenager. The indoctrination of young children is very damaging and much harder to get out of. This goes for any ideology, but religion especially since belief is based only on faith. They can wear what they want ofc, but there is also a problem with acting like religion can’t be criticised. However, here the way they went about it is just unproductive.
if they want to promote secularism (which is good)
you mean athiesm. Secularism is when you don’t take any stance about what people should believe.
and you can’t just have parents not involve their children in their religious belief even athiest parents involve their children in their beliefs on religion
Bullshit. Abaya is a religious garment. The equivalent for men is the qamis, however you don’t see muslim boys using it.
Do they ban other forms of religious expression? Crosses/crucifixes? Yarmulke/kippah?
Or is it just Islamic symbols?From what I’ve read they ban all of it. Granted I don’t live there nor do I see it in practice, but they’ve mentioned it in a few articles.
I read up on it a bit more.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_law_on_secularity_and_conspicuous_religious_symbols_in_schools
It seems like regulations on religious attire are selectively applied. Small crosses and stars of David, some variations of Sikh turbans, Fatima’s hands are acceptable and the final decision is left up to school headmasters.
It also sounds like the legislators who created it specifically intended to target Muslim headdress.
It’s one thing to keep religion out of education. It seems that they’re disproportionately concerned about suprsesssing Islam in their schools.
Ah, thanks for the link. Yes, they’re definitely in the wrong if there’s even an iota of selective enforcement.
I want to be very careful around judging the intentions of people who live 5000 miles away and speak a language I don’t understand. There’s a lot of room to misunderstand people’s intentions.
But from what I can see, it’s looking like there’s an intentional bias.
so let girls bring small muslim symbol in their necklaces? that seems fair to me.
I could see that as fair as long as everyone agrees that a small symbol on their neck is an appropriate expression of their religion.
If I were to think of a Muslim country that officially embraces secularism in government what would that look like? What if they said that everyone can wear a discreet head covering. Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Daoists, Jains, etc are also allowed to wear small headscarves appropriate to their religion.
The problem is that headscarves just aren’t generally meaningful to those other religions.
I’m even more suspicious of the intent of the French law since they apparently went out of their way to create an exemption for non-Muslim head scarves. The law seems to be constructed and interpreted as, “If we can tell that its related to Islam, it’s out.” The case where a girl was sent home for wearing a skirt that was too long really just looks like they want to make Muslims (and Muslim girls, in particular) more uncomfortable.
The difference here is that headscarves is a symbol of opression, you have to understand that.
The thing with symbols is that they don’t have have objective meanings. Their meanings are entirely a matter of interpretation and they’re incredibly fluid.
Necklaces can also be symbols of oppression. Chains, in general are far more commonly used as symbols of oppression than any article of clothing. There’s the obvious association with collars that are used to control slaves and livestock. There is also slavery symbolism associated with ankle and wrist bracelets, largely due to their similarity to shackles.
The ultimate test is what the individual thinks of it. If we’re forbidding a girl from wearing some article of clothing that she wants to wear, we’re the oppressors. If we’re truly worried about some situation where parents are forcing their children to wear some clothing a more appropriate response would be to either ban all religious clothing or to adopt a policy of clothing choice being a protected privacy matter and barring schools from discussing a student’s clothing choices with their parents.
From the evidence I’ve seen, this policy is less about protecting the rights of girls and more about using that as a rationalization to marginalize Muslims.
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I really can’t stress enough that schools enforcing dress codes isn’t related to counter-terrorism just because the girls were Muslim
What
Edit: these are right wing talking points coming from a hexbear user cool cool
These are not right-wing talking points, right-wingers love Islam because it’s a religion that oppresses women and openly attacks LGBT folks
Yes famously pro-immigrant, especially Muslim immigrant, right wing political parties
Web be fucked if they ever figure out that Islam is a right wing ideology but absolutely fucking not do republicans support Muslims.
The only time they’ve ever pretended to care about lgbtq people is when they could use it to attack Islam (while conveniently giving Christianity a pass)
“Religion is the opium of the people.” (Karl Marx, you might have heard of him)
“while france has many instances of islamophobia, i’m going ignore it and make a case for why france should actually force women to dress in this or that way”
segregate themselves
It happens anyway because of the color of the skin or the accent or whatever. You make it sound like a solution when it isn’t, really.
wiping away those distinctions at the door is an extremely valuable part of social education.
no the role of education is not to erase minority cultures that is not only on the face of it terrible it’s also directly and extremely counter to China’s policy on ethnic minority cultures within China which is based on Stalin’s policy on Russian ethnic minorities specifically that they should be enabled to practice their culture without the state getting in the way. It’s much more in line with the Tsar’s attitude towards ethnic minorities and russification. Stop making China look bad by attributing this terrible idea China wouldn’t do to China
I worded it poorly, but my point was that France’s enforcement of a dress code is far less extreme than the cultural intervention in Xinjiang. Furthermore I think that all of the people in this thread who’ve compared it to Native American residential schooling are themselves engaging in genocide denial by way of minimization.
#jesuisxinjiang
#jesuisabaya
Uniforms in school don’t wipe distinctions, they make them less visible to outsiders, every kid still knows who is rich, who is poor, who is religious and who is not. Uniforms serve as a security theater, and limit considerably the freedom of every child who wears one while augmenting the parents expectations of how safe a place the school is.
