The Tesla and SpaceX tycoon has claimed that his daughter’s transition had driven him towards the political right. Now three trans people tell Io Dodds how their own loved ones went down the rabbit hole
This is some guilt-tripping, gaslighting, deflecting DARVO bullshit, and I won’t have it.
Bigots do not become bigots because of their exposure to “others”. When those of us who are “others” [refuse to tolerate the intolerance of others] (out of principle or justifiable self-defense) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance), their frustration and their lashing-out as a result is not our fault. Nobody can be held responsible for another individual’s lack of emotional self-control.
When people act out with violence, motivated by hate, fear, and ignorance, they are to blame— never the victims.
Someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another, are two separate things.
Family members going down toxic rabbit holes as a response to someone close to them coming out, is just that - a response to someone close to them coming out. It is quite literally cause and effect.
That doesn’t mean that the family member’s bigotry is the person’s problem though, nor should they feel any sense of blame whatsoever.
I’m not talking about causing effect. What I’m saying is that one family members decision to embrace hatred and bigotry is not the fault or the responsibility of the family member who came out of the closet. The family member who decided and made the choice to become a hateful bigot did so of their own accord, and the family member who bravely chose to live as their own self is not to blame for that.
One thing may have led to the other, but that does not mean that one thing inherits responsibility or blame for the other.
t’s not so simple as an assumed reaction as you imply: it’s not one object striking another, transferring energy, and causing the next object to move. This other family member chooses hate and bigotry and then to act on those ideologies and feelings. That is not the same as the simple thing you reference.
What I’m saying is that one family members decision to embrace hatred and bigotry is not the fault or the responsibility of the family member who came out of the closet
Like I said, I completely agree with this. And,
The family member who decided and made the choice to become a hateful bigot did so of their own accord
while true, that chain of events was started when they, bravely, came out. It’s not their problem, nor should they feel any guilt whatsoever, as there’s nothing that they did wrong. But the fact is that the toxic path the family member went down only happened because of that coming out. Literally just cause and effect, it’s factually what happened.
That’s why I say that there’s a difference between someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another. The article simply states that she saw his radicalism start when she came out. Not that her coming out was somehow wrong. She’s literally just stating her truth. Her coming out started him on this path. And, that’s not her fault.
But the fact is that the toxic path the family member went down only happened because of that coming out. Literally just cause and effect, it’s factually what happened.
“The husband wouldn’t have beaten his wife if she didn’t burn dinner.”
Saying that the husband wouldn’t have beaten her if they hadn’t gotten married is a fact tho.
That doesn’t make it her fault for marrying him, she’s not responsible for his abuse. But the fact that it’s happening due to previous events is simply how the world works.
You replied to my post while missing the point of the post. I pointed that out.
Also, your point was meaningless and irrelevant other than trying to excuse away victim blaming. A wife burning dinner might be the catalyst for the husband to respond, but reasonable husbands wouldn’t beat her. They would react in some other way.
Burning dinner didn’t cause a beating any more than Musk’s daughter being trans caused him to be conservative. He was just a piece of shit and his daughter being trans highlighted that shittiness. She didn’t cause it.
I would argue it isn’t direct cause and effect as most likely that member has always harbored those feelings but being confronted with their beliefs is the catalyst that makes them veer into openly bigoted territory.
I think what OP is trying to say is that by claiming LGBTQ+ people coming out is the cause of people’s bigotry it will only make them less likely to come out but wouldn’t actually reduce the number of bigots in the world. (I know that’s probably not the argument you were trying to make, but it’s what it sounded like from the outside)
That’s entirely possible, but more than once I’ve seen genuinely great, kind-hearted people get sucked down toxic rabbit holes. Extremely liberal, open people getting slowly warped over time.
Hell, most of the time they don’t even realize it’s happening. I used the example in another comment, but it’s like someone indoctrinated into a cult. They didn’t exit the womb a cultist, this wasn’t always who they were. This happened to them at some point.
No no no no NO!
This is some guilt-tripping, gaslighting, deflecting DARVO bullshit, and I won’t have it.
Bigots do not become bigots because of their exposure to “others”. When those of us who are “others” [refuse to tolerate the intolerance of others] (out of principle or justifiable self-defense) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance), their frustration and their lashing-out as a result is not our fault. Nobody can be held responsible for another individual’s lack of emotional self-control.
When people act out with violence, motivated by hate, fear, and ignorance, they are to blame— never the victims.
Someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another, are two separate things.
Family members going down toxic rabbit holes as a response to someone close to them coming out, is just that - a response to someone close to them coming out. It is quite literally cause and effect.
That doesn’t mean that the family member’s bigotry is the person’s problem though, nor should they feel any sense of blame whatsoever.
I’m not talking about causing effect. What I’m saying is that one family members decision to embrace hatred and bigotry is not the fault or the responsibility of the family member who came out of the closet. The family member who decided and made the choice to become a hateful bigot did so of their own accord, and the family member who bravely chose to live as their own self is not to blame for that.
One thing may have led to the other, but that does not mean that one thing inherits responsibility or blame for the other.
t’s not so simple as an assumed reaction as you imply: it’s not one object striking another, transferring energy, and causing the next object to move. This other family member chooses hate and bigotry and then to act on those ideologies and feelings. That is not the same as the simple thing you reference.
Like I said, I completely agree with this. And,
while true, that chain of events was started when they, bravely, came out. It’s not their problem, nor should they feel any guilt whatsoever, as there’s nothing that they did wrong. But the fact is that the toxic path the family member went down only happened because of that coming out. Literally just cause and effect, it’s factually what happened.
That’s why I say that there’s a difference between someone being at fault for something, and someone unintentionally influencing another. The article simply states that she saw his radicalism start when she came out. Not that her coming out was somehow wrong. She’s literally just stating her truth. Her coming out started him on this path. And, that’s not her fault.
“The husband wouldn’t have beaten his wife if she didn’t burn dinner.”
Saying that the husband wouldn’t have beaten her if they hadn’t gotten married is a fact tho.
That doesn’t make it her fault for marrying him, she’s not responsible for his abuse. But the fact that it’s happening due to previous events is simply how the world works.
I was making a point about violence, not a fucking wedding.
So you were making a point that had zero to do with my comment?
My comment was about how events inherently lead to other events. But that it doesn’t mean that anyone is to blame.
I can’t tell if you’re purposefully being obtuse or genuinely don’t understand what my comment was saying, or what my reply to yours implied.
You replied to my post while missing the point of the post. I pointed that out.
Also, your point was meaningless and irrelevant other than trying to excuse away victim blaming. A wife burning dinner might be the catalyst for the husband to respond, but reasonable husbands wouldn’t beat her. They would react in some other way.
Burning dinner didn’t cause a beating any more than Musk’s daughter being trans caused him to be conservative. He was just a piece of shit and his daughter being trans highlighted that shittiness. She didn’t cause it.
I would argue it isn’t direct cause and effect as most likely that member has always harbored those feelings but being confronted with their beliefs is the catalyst that makes them veer into openly bigoted territory.
I think what OP is trying to say is that by claiming LGBTQ+ people coming out is the cause of people’s bigotry it will only make them less likely to come out but wouldn’t actually reduce the number of bigots in the world. (I know that’s probably not the argument you were trying to make, but it’s what it sounded like from the outside)
That’s entirely possible, but more than once I’ve seen genuinely great, kind-hearted people get sucked down toxic rabbit holes. Extremely liberal, open people getting slowly warped over time.
Hell, most of the time they don’t even realize it’s happening. I used the example in another comment, but it’s like someone indoctrinated into a cult. They didn’t exit the womb a cultist, this wasn’t always who they were. This happened to them at some point.