Idk, how much information is enough to make a determination on whether Israel is committing war crimes? Certainly not much more, if the ICC is already pursuing arrest warrants
Let’s take it as a given. You’re saying you know all the reasons the US administration has to still support Israel. Don’t even need to look.
You Do. Not. Know. I’m not saying I know, I’m not saying they’re good reasons. I’m saying it’s such a dense and complex political issue that people study it for their whole lives, entire consultancies exist to support it, and a server full of recent graduates who want to support trump saying they know it all are full of shit.
If only someone was pushing them to articulate their reasons for defending the war crimes that are objectively happening
You understand it’s not a good idea to do that for some of the reasons right? What reasons might those be? Can you think of any?
Not doing so is doing nothing to address the suspicion that they might be allowing them to happen because they have imperial interests in the region
“Address the suspicion”? To have a democratic western-friendly foothold in the heart of the oil countries? You need to hear that reason that is so public it’s a cliche? What other ‘imperial interests’ are there? Exploiting labor or something? Setting up cotton plantations in Israel? I’m not suspecting those, but hey surprise me.
It’s only complicated if you think neocolonialism is a valid means to an imperialist end. If you reject those outright it gets pretty simple
I think you know you’re reaching with this one but ok. Let’s use “1. The policy or practice of a wealthy or powerful nation in extending its influence into a less developed one, especially in exploiting that nation’s resources.” unless you want to argue some finer nuance with ‘neocolonialism’. Why do you think Israel is ‘less developed’? What resources is the US exploiting that isn’t the ‘democratic foothold in the middle east’?
An “imperialist end” huh boy that does sound bad, what end would that be? Preventing eternal war between eternally sworn enemies in a gas station the rest of the world uses? Probably not what you were going for - yours probably has the word genocide in it I bet.
So if it’s so simple - you write the check. What’s your simple solution? Lemme save you the time complaining about it; you’ll say cut off all aid to Israel, I’ll point out Bibi has specifically promised that won’t stop him and then I’ll point out that russia would love to buy some more Israel and you’ll either love that idea or pretend it doesn’t matter or - hey maybe you have the answer, you’re the super genius person the world has been waiting for to solve this problem. But I doubt it.
And as far as some “Fake nuance to arguments”, I’m not saying that’s not a thing, I’m saying prove it. Gimme the simple version you’ve got all printed up on colorful paper. What is it? Is it genius? Is it feasible? Is it even coherent?
What other ‘imperial interests’ are there? Exploiting labor or something? Setting up cotton plantations in Israel? I’m not suspecting those, but hey surprise me.
Idk, you kind of already nailed it with the oil. Exploiting the natural resources of sovereign nations by regional military dominance is definitionally imperialist.
I think you know you’re reaching with this one but ok. Let’s use “1. The policy or practice of a wealthy or powerful nation in extending its influence into a less developed one, especially in exploiting that nation’s resources.” unless you want to argue some finer nuance with ‘neocolonialism’. Why do you think Israel is ‘less developed’? What resources is the US exploiting that isn’t the ‘democratic foothold in the middle east’?
Lmao, Palestine is the less developed nation, and Isreal is the colony. I didn’t think that one needed to be explained. The resource is oil and trade routes, the foothold is the control over them.
Preventing eternal war between eternally sworn enemies in a gas station the rest of the world uses?
Even at my most angry, I don’t think i’ve ever had this much contempt for another nation/people/continent. That is the wildest show of arogance I have so far seen on lemmy. But if you think the US has been an actor that is keeping the peace and not fomenting conflict in the middle east, then holy fuck I don’t know what I could possibly tell you to convince you otherwise. I mean for fucks sake, the last three decades of american foreign activity has been primarily defined by active military conflict there. Go ahead and convince me those were peacekeeping missions.
So if it’s so simple - you write the check. What’s your simple solution?
Get the fuck out of the middle east and let the people there decide what they want to do with the natural resources. It would be hard to imagine that whatever conflict that erupts there in the vacuum could possibly be worse than the millions of people the US and their partners have killed there over the last three decades.
Gimme the simple version you’ve got all printed up on colorful paper. What is it? Is it genius? Is it feasible? Is it even coherent?
If your only ideological concern is freedom and democracy, then there are no interests the US has in the middle east that come close to meeting them. It’s as easy as “i oppose colonial and imperialist activities no matter what form they take”.
Exploiting the natural resources of sovereign nations by regional military dominance is definitionally imperialist.
Fair. Except Israel doesn’t have oil. And they don’t dominate the nations that do. Your move.
Lmao, Palestine is the less developed nation, and Isreal is the colony.
Israel is the colony huh. Interesting. How do we get oil and - ?? “trade routes” ? from “our colony”, Israel? And - just to put a fine point on it then, Israel is not a sovereign nation under your ‘definition’, right, it’s a US colony? Okay. You don’t think that’s - of course you don’t.
Even at my most angry, I don’t think i’ve ever had this muchcontempt for another nation/people/continent.
What nation/people/continent? The middle east, so-called, has many. You’ve taken great offense on behalf of one of them - which one?
That is the wildestshow of arogance I have so far seen on lemmy.
Yeah cause you don’t hear yourself.
I mean for fucks sake, the last three decades of american foreign activity has been primarily defined by active military conflict there. Go ahead and convince me those were peacekeeping missions.
Wouldn’t dream of it. I protested them all. And all of them - get this straight, because this is where you’re fucking up - ALL OF THEM were specifically republican led. Actual war criminals Bush & Cheney still wandering around out here not worried at all by your biden genocide wankery. You’re specifically calling to hurt the electability of the party that fought for you against all those wars and for the party that will 100% create more of them.
That you don’t see that is the most arrogant idiocy I’ve ever seen on lemmy plus infinity plus one!. Or- or did you want nuance. I dunno, kinda mixed signals there really.
So if it’s so simple - you write the check. What’s your simple solution?
Get the fuck out of the middle east and let the people there decide what they want to do with the natural resources. It would be hard to imagine that whatever conflict that erupts there in the vacuum could possibly be worse than the millions of people the US and their partners have killed there over the last three decades.
Yeah that’s fucking brilliant. And exactly what we expected you’d say. Are you familiar with nuclear weapons? You know North Korea or maybe Pakistan (or, hell - russia!) will sell you one pretty cheap. You hate Israel so much, badda-bing, problem solved it’s all a party now. You think that’s unlikely? Goddamn. How can you miss that. You think the Wahabbists are interested in maybe opening a dialogue? Yeah? Mr. Bone Saw’s gonna look over at newly-russia’d Israel and say hey buddy ol pals ain’t it great the imperialist pig dogs are gone? Wanna play videogames and drink sodas together?
Do nothing. Well shit you are the super genius we’ve been missing. If only those warmongering (checks notes) Democrats would get out of power we could really get things done.
It’s as easy as “i oppose colonial and imperialist activities no matter what form they take”.
Absolutist positions are a trap. At best. At worst they create terrible outcomes. And you’ll have a 100% chance of losing this election. So - since your genius foreign policy is literally nothing, and since your klaxon teeth-grinding that biden “supports genocide” is only able to help trump, and since you have a 0% chance to help anyone - least of all the people you think you’re, i guess you think you’re helping? - why don’t you try a different way to “oppose colonial and imperialist activities”? Maybe aim a little lower to start? Win a local election, maybe?
So you’re saying you have all the information then.
Right.
Idk, how much information is enough to make a determination on whether Israel is committing war crimes? Certainly not much more, if the ICC is already pursuing arrest warrants
Let’s take it as a given. You’re saying you know all the reasons the US administration has to still support Israel. Don’t even need to look.
You Do. Not. Know. I’m not saying I know, I’m not saying they’re good reasons. I’m saying it’s such a dense and complex political issue that people study it for their whole lives, entire consultancies exist to support it, and a server full of recent graduates who want to support trump saying they know it all are full of shit.
If only someone was pushing them to articulate their reasons for defending the war crimes that are objectively happening
Not doing so is doing nothing to address the suspicion that they might be allowing them to happen because they have imperial interests in the region
It’s only complicated if you think neocolonialism is a valid means to an imperialist end. If you reject those outright it gets pretty simple
Oooh, I have this one, I have this one, citations needed just did an episode on this.
Oh my god I’ve only read the title so far and I already fucking love it
You understand it’s not a good idea to do that for some of the reasons right? What reasons might those be? Can you think of any?
“Address the suspicion”? To have a democratic western-friendly foothold in the heart of the oil countries? You need to hear that reason that is so public it’s a cliche? What other ‘imperial interests’ are there? Exploiting labor or something? Setting up cotton plantations in Israel? I’m not suspecting those, but hey surprise me.
I think you know you’re reaching with this one but ok. Let’s use “1. The policy or practice of a wealthy or powerful nation in extending its influence into a less developed one, especially in exploiting that nation’s resources.” unless you want to argue some finer nuance with ‘neocolonialism’. Why do you think Israel is ‘less developed’? What resources is the US exploiting that isn’t the ‘democratic foothold in the middle east’?
An “imperialist end” huh boy that does sound bad, what end would that be? Preventing eternal war between eternally sworn enemies in a gas station the rest of the world uses? Probably not what you were going for - yours probably has the word genocide in it I bet.
So if it’s so simple - you write the check. What’s your simple solution? Lemme save you the time complaining about it; you’ll say cut off all aid to Israel, I’ll point out Bibi has specifically promised that won’t stop him and then I’ll point out that russia would love to buy some more Israel and you’ll either love that idea or pretend it doesn’t matter or - hey maybe you have the answer, you’re the super genius person the world has been waiting for to solve this problem. But I doubt it.
And as far as some “Fake nuance to arguments”, I’m not saying that’s not a thing, I’m saying prove it. Gimme the simple version you’ve got all printed up on colorful paper. What is it? Is it genius? Is it feasible? Is it even coherent?
Idk, you kind of already nailed it with the oil. Exploiting the natural resources of sovereign nations by regional military dominance is definitionally imperialist.
Lmao, Palestine is the less developed nation, and Isreal is the colony. I didn’t think that one needed to be explained. The resource is oil and trade routes, the foothold is the control over them.
Even at my most angry, I don’t think i’ve ever had this much contempt for another nation/people/continent. That is the wildest show of arogance I have so far seen on lemmy. But if you think the US has been an actor that is keeping the peace and not fomenting conflict in the middle east, then holy fuck I don’t know what I could possibly tell you to convince you otherwise. I mean for fucks sake, the last three decades of american foreign activity has been primarily defined by active military conflict there. Go ahead and convince me those were peacekeeping missions.
Get the fuck out of the middle east and let the people there decide what they want to do with the natural resources. It would be hard to imagine that whatever conflict that erupts there in the vacuum could possibly be worse than the millions of people the US and their partners have killed there over the last three decades.
If your only ideological concern is freedom and democracy, then there are no interests the US has in the middle east that come close to meeting them. It’s as easy as “i oppose colonial and imperialist activities no matter what form they take”.
Fair. Except Israel doesn’t have oil. And they don’t dominate the nations that do. Your move.
Israel is the colony huh. Interesting. How do we get oil and - ?? “trade routes” ? from “our colony”, Israel? And - just to put a fine point on it then, Israel is not a sovereign nation under your ‘definition’, right, it’s a US colony? Okay. You don’t think that’s - of course you don’t.
What nation/people/continent? The middle east, so-called, has many. You’ve taken great offense on behalf of one of them - which one?
Yeah cause you don’t hear yourself.
Wouldn’t dream of it. I protested them all. And all of them - get this straight, because this is where you’re fucking up - ALL OF THEM were specifically republican led. Actual war criminals Bush & Cheney still wandering around out here not worried at all by your biden genocide wankery. You’re specifically calling to hurt the electability of the party that fought for you against all those wars and for the party that will 100% create more of them.
That you don’t see that is the most arrogant idiocy I’ve ever seen on lemmy plus infinity plus one!. Or- or did you want nuance. I dunno, kinda mixed signals there really.
Yeah that’s fucking brilliant. And exactly what we expected you’d say. Are you familiar with nuclear weapons? You know North Korea or maybe Pakistan (or, hell - russia!) will sell you one pretty cheap. You hate Israel so much, badda-bing, problem solved it’s all a party now. You think that’s unlikely? Goddamn. How can you miss that. You think the Wahabbists are interested in maybe opening a dialogue? Yeah? Mr. Bone Saw’s gonna look over at newly-russia’d Israel and say hey buddy ol pals ain’t it great the imperialist pig dogs are gone? Wanna play videogames and drink sodas together?
Do nothing. Well shit you are the super genius we’ve been missing. If only those warmongering (checks notes) Democrats would get out of power we could really get things done.
Absolutist positions are a trap. At best. At worst they create terrible outcomes. And you’ll have a 100% chance of losing this election. So - since your genius foreign policy is literally nothing, and since your klaxon teeth-grinding that biden “supports genocide” is only able to help trump, and since you have a 0% chance to help anyone - least of all the people you think you’re, i guess you think you’re helping? - why don’t you try a different way to “oppose colonial and imperialist activities”? Maybe aim a little lower to start? Win a local election, maybe?