Preface: I have been daily driving Fedora Atomic for the last couple of years and have also used a bit of Aeon and NixOS.

My opinion is that while atomic/immutable desktops are overall a good idea, they are marred by poor planning, a refusal to fix existing tools, and some cope.

There are way too many package managers and waste in this space. I think flatpak is a large cause of all this friction due to fact that it is always “sandboxed” and only focuses on GUI apps. The fact that it does not aim to support CLI apps (despite being able to handle them quite well!) means that we must have another tool, traditionally podman via toolbox/distrobox. The sandbox doesn’t play well with certain subsets of apps, notably things like VSCode. At least Flatpak Next seems like it will address this part with its unsandboxed mode.

I also find it quite strange how some developers revel in wasted space and inefficiency. So many duplicated libraries between the host, flatpak, podman, and homebrew. With better planning, we could’ve had shared runtimes (such as Freedesktop) between the OS, flatpak, and whatever CLI package manager. Instead we have something like Fedora packages for the host OS and podman (not shared), flatpak using Freedesktop, and brew shipping their own stuff.

I also think that systemd sysexts are poorly designed, it’s crazy they’re being pushed. It’s pretty much a package manager without dependency management. And for what upsides? It has no sandboxing, it’s not portable between distros and distro versions, and must vendor dependencies to work around having no concept of dependencies. And we’re already seeing fragmentation with Fedora and OpenSUSE working on their own frontends to manage sysexts.

Flatpak aimed from the beginning to be distro-independent, and consequently the Freedesktop SDK isn’t a repackaging of Debian or Fedora or Alpine Linux, but something more like a DIY Linux From Scratch build. As an app user you don’t notice any of this, because it’s very well executed and apps just work. Again, it’s hard now to imagine a parallel universe where the main Flatpak runtime was Fedora in a trenchcoat, but perhaps that would have impeded the success of Flatpak. (Of course Canonical still built their own app store technology, but I suspect that Canonical re-inventing things is part of every parallel universe).

I still find this “distroless” talk funny. There’s so little difference in whether the Freedesktop runtime is built like “Linux From Scratch” or assembled from Fedora packages. Fedora is also assembled like “Linux From Scratch”. At the end of the day, they’re both just taking upstream code and compiling it. Fedora just has an intermediary step of creating a package.

The only practical differences are the release scheduling, support length, and compile flags. In another world, the Freedesktop runtime could literally just be Fedora packages but with different compile flags that are less restrictive in terms of patents/codecs. And it would make almost no difference apart from the support length being different.

Interesting, what hardware do you run?

I haven’t used Plasma for any significant length of time since 5.27. Coincidentally, the first major version of Plasma where Wayland was actually daily drivable for me, previous versions would have at least one desktop crash a day.

But my experience on Gnome Wayland has always been good. At least, better than X11, even on NVIDIA before the Wayland compatibility was “good”. Don’t remember exactly dates or version umbers, but it was shortly after it got hardware accelerated Xwayland and before NVIDIA added GBM support. And when I switched to AMD, it only got smoother and more stable.

And recently have been trying out labwc/wlroots and it’s been a very stable experience too.

Sorry, I guess labwc isn’t as well known as I thought it was.

labwc is a lightweight Wayland compositor based on wlroots. Unlike most other window managers, it uses “floating” windows (like Gnome and Plasma) rather than automatically tiled windows (like Sway and Hyprland).

This is not a proposal to stop using SVG, it’s just a fun re-imagination of Gnome if we all still used low resolution CRT displays.