• halfempty@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Why must every faction of Progressives attack each other. Bernie Sanders is the most solid progressive I know of, but Code Pink wants to attack him because his Ukraine support isn’t anti-war? I’m anti war. In particular I’m anti the war that Russia started by invading Ukraine. Anti war doesn’t mean just letting the bad guy do whatever they want. If so, then anti-war is pro tyranny, because they always let the aggressor invade.

    • Walt J. Rimmer@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      One of the things that made me really like Sanders when he was first campaigning for president was when I looked up his record on American war and he had a voting record that tended to follow a quote from him that amounted to something like (paraphrasing), “War should be the last resort, but if a war is started, we need to see it fully see it through.”

      It’s not like siding with Ukraine and getting into that conflict is supporting warfare. It’s seeking to prevent warmongers from profiting off a senseless war. The idea that abandoning Ukraine to just be invaded and allowing Russia to get whatever they want by force is an, “Anti-war,” stance is fucking absurd.

    • flossdaily@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      The left has always had its share of morons.

      Well-meaning morons, but morons nonetheless.

      The issue is that the centrist and right wing media latch on to the narrative of these fringe weirdos and pretend that they represent the entirety of the left wing, even though there are WAY MORE lefties who find them disdainful.

      • flossdaily@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        False narrative.

        We have less than a dozen morons here. They don’t represent anyone but themselves.

        Meanwhile we have entire factions of the Republican party at war with themselves from the Lincoln Project to the infighting in the House just this week.

        • yumcake@lemmy.one
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          1 year ago

          All of them intend to vote for Trump in November, regardless of legal court findings, if they have any chance to vote form him, through legal means or otherwise they will all do it.

      • Dr. Bluefall@toast.ooo
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        1 year ago

        The issue with any negotiated settlement is that how do you trust Russia to hold up its end of the bargain after 2014? They’ve shown that international agreements mean sweet F.A. to them if it gets in the way of their goals.

        The only way we get out of this in the long term to push Russia out of Ukraine, and force an unconditional Russian surrender. That means taking back the Donbas region; that means taking back Crimea.

      • kent_eh@lemmy.ca
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        1 year ago

        but he should also be calling for a negotiated end to this brutal war

        Bernie is smart enough to know that you can’t reliably negotiate with someone as untrustworthy as Putin.

        Putin has lied to the world more than enough times that nobody should trust any potential negotiation he is involved in.

    • TheAnonymouseJoker@lemmy.ml
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      1 year ago

      I am anti the war that “USA started by attempting a coup in 2003, and succeeding with another coup in 2013, to manufacture a war against Russia”. I support Russia defending itself from NATO’s genocidal biochemical warfare attempts and Ukrainian militia Nazis killing thousands of ethnic Russians for 8 years.

    • zephyreks@lemmy.mlM
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      1 year ago

      Because Bernie’s a lukewarm progressive at best nowadays and he’s incapable of actually influencing policy. The Democratic party is stuck in a rut caused by decades of neoliberal policy (which, for example, is why Clinton got so many resources during the Democrat primaries) and refuses to even consider a more radical alternative.

      Voting isn’t working to actually institute change in America. Either the country needs to push more power down to the states, or it needs complete electoral reform to remove the FPTP system that got America into this mess.

      • Lucky@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        Yugoslavia was invading Kosovo and commiting ethnic cleansing of Albanians at the time. Agree or disagree with how it was executed, it fits with the idea that he opposes the aggressors in war

        • OurToothbrush@lemmy.mlM
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          1 year ago

          Most of the ethnic cleansing happened as a result of the war. The intervention lead to an intensification of ethnic conflict.

          • Lucky@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            The intervention was a key reason the war ended after multiple years of conflict and ethnic cleansing. Are you saying that ending the war caused more ethnic cleansing afterwards than was already happening? That ending war made things less stable?

            • ghost_of_faso2@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              The intervention also lead to many innocents (like the chinese embasy) being targetted and bombed by US forces.

              I do agree that the intervention was likely needed in this case, but that intervention should not have taken the form of carpet bombing as it ended up killing people completely not involved in the conflict; Clinton even apologised for this and recongised it as a negative.

              The tensions have never went away however, the campaigns of mass imprisonment have only put it to sleep for a while and if recent tensions are anything to go by, they are likely to escelate again.

              My sources on this are reading and being friends with a few people who grew up through this war, it is a harrowing one and I would say that often times its better to have ‘no opinion’ on matters concerning this unless you have personal stakes in it. Thats not directed at anyone in particular, just more towards americans who use this conflict to score cheap points.

              Source; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_bombing_of_the_Chinese_embassy_in_Belgrade

            • zephyreks@lemmy.mlM
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              1 year ago

              The war itself made things less stable and, arguably, more people died as a byproduct of the war than if the war had never happened.

              The fact that things recovered (ish) is a convenient coincidence and not the expectation. If you look at other times the US or NATO intervened, you’ll see why it’s not a given that things will be more stable afterwards.

              • Lucky@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                Well we can play “what if” all we want, but bringing it back to the main point of Sanders, you can argue all you want about if it was the correct course of action but his vote was to stop an invading force.

                • zephyreks@lemmy.mlM
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                  1 year ago

                  Sure, but that’s a perfectly valid reason for anti-war protestors to dislike him. There’s a belief out there that diplomacy can resolve most conflicts and that military force should only be used after diplomacy is exhausted.

                  There’s a reason the UN hadn’t yet approved an intervention.

                  • phillaholic@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    There’s a reason the UN hadn’t yet approved an intervention.

                    Russia is on the Security Council and can veto it…