See I never said it was the primary way for change. That is you putting words in my mouth. I am saying that it is an important part to helping us get changed;
Electoralism cannot get change. I’ve explained how and why, and you have not explained why you think, for the first time in history, we can get meaningful change via electoralism.
particularly in the short term and to get as much legislation leaning as left as possible.
When the candidates are pre-filtered, a filter that blocks groups like PSL, you cannot actually shift legislation. Instead, what impacts legislation is the level of millitancy and organization of the working classes. The state votes against the interests of the working classes, and for the interests of the capitalists.
Ignoring election is to not resist fascist and just let them waltz in without resistance.
Fascism has never been stopped at the ballot box. Fascism rises as a result of capitalist decay, and is stopped by force historically. Whether the DNC or GOP wins, fascism remains.
Not at all, but if you can’t get your group to vote; which is comparatively easy in the west then you have little credibility of doing the harder stuff.
This doesn’t follow. If voting isn’t allowed to change anything, then people are more likely to be apathetic about it. I’ve seen many people in the streets, protesting, striking, that did not vote or voted third party.
Which is where most ml are. No credability and purity politics (like here you are trying to make it seem I don’t want change when i am reaching out to you to also participate in these methods with me as well, but you don’t want to get your white shirt dirty or something).
No? I’m telling you to stop trying a failed and impossible strategy that has never worked in history, and telling you to roll up your sleeves and get involved in party building and organizing in real life, if you aren’t already. If you are, then great, vote if it makes you happy. If you aren’t, then you’re just repeating the same mistakes reformists have been making for centuries.
Electoralism cannot get change. I’ve explained how and why, and you have not explained why you think, for the first time in history, we can get meaningful change via electoralism.
And because you don’t show up in anycase you won’t get change either.
PSL is the focus, and PSL is an ML party. Many of the groups mentioned are front groups, PSL has many, like CODEPINK and the ANSWER coalition. PSL also coordinates with other groups to more effectively push for change, rather than doing everything itself.
I’m not surprised. This is someone who got so mad at me pointing out the Biden administration was complict in genocide that they started stalking me across the fediverse for months
Oh fuck off, plenty of my Minnesota comrades who are out there fighting ICE are Marxist-Leninist. You dont “see MLs driving out ICE” because we don’t fucking wear ID tags with our ideology on them, fuckwit. You’re just making up shit and running with it (like that Marxists have some “purity” test against voting even though plenty did vote for De la Cruz but refused to vote for a fascist genocidal Democrat which is ACTUALLY what pissed of liberals like you).
Just because we have no interest in partaking in your meaningless ritual doesn’t mean we aren’t out there making up a good portion of the front line against fascism.
Ok just to preface I am not amerikkkan so outside looking on on your many issues.
But genuine question how do you see an ml? Can you read their mind? Or do you expect them to label themselves as such on a name tag or sign? What of the people who are for all intents and purposes ml but simply don’t take on the label for one reason or another? Feels like you’re making a lot of assumptions based on vibes.
Also another question. Voting isn’t just voting under your system as I understand it. It’s a multi year process of canvassing and related work. So if bourgeois-democracy has been shown to be a dead end repeatedly throughout history it feels like wasting the hundreds of hours to prep and do it is a real misallocation of resources no?
Spreading agit-prop, showing up for “protests” (parades in the American case from what I’ve seen (this is a whole separate tangent I could go on)) and generally teaching arming and doing socialist work seems much more valuable use of time. Not hyper familiar with American orgs so I would defer to the likes of cowbee to explain in detail what the orgs are actually doing with the saved resources.
Well the server you are on ends in .ml to mean marxist lenninist, so yeah they are kind of labeled.
Also another question. Voting isn’t just voting under your system as I understand it. It’s a multi year process of canvassing and related work. So if bourgeois-democracy has been shown to be a dead end repeatedly throughout history it feels like wasting the hundreds of hours to prep and do it is a real misallocation of resources no?
Im not going to repeat too much, but you can read more with my chat with @Cowbee@lemmy.ml on here. You do make a good point. It is a marathon and those take prep, but so does everything else we are doing. You are going to be reaching out and canvasing for your community food bank, your protests, and strikes. You don’t have to go all out with spending money, but formalizing yourself into your own party, which we should, marks us as real players and able to make an unset election if we are not taken into some consideration.
Outside of elections we still have some formal places to coordinate our outreach and keep putting our name out there.
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml makes it out like I am saying we should only vote, but note I am not saying that. I am saying that ignoring elections is foolish of us.
MLs would want to build credibility of their movement and they would be advertising who they are. When they houthis walk the talk and lob missiles at Israel or ships they are clear that it was them and why they are doing what they are. That helps bolster their movement and recruit more people to do even more.
If you are the group doing the action you want it known so that you can keep growing.
An important distinction here is that Ansar Allah is a militant group while “ml” is simply a political descriptor. There is no group or party called ml. ML’s make up a large portion of communist party and other groups membership alongside others who describe themselves with other labels.
No, I absolutely show up, to protests, organizing, and other real-life methods of gaining real change and growing organizational power. It’s not that voting doesn’t work because Marxists don’t vote, it’s that Marxists don’t emphasize voting because we know it doesn’t work.
Electoralism cannot get change. I’ve explained how and why, and you have not explained why you think, for the first time in history, we can get meaningful change via electoralism.
When the candidates are pre-filtered, a filter that blocks groups like PSL, you cannot actually shift legislation. Instead, what impacts legislation is the level of millitancy and organization of the working classes. The state votes against the interests of the working classes, and for the interests of the capitalists.
Fascism has never been stopped at the ballot box. Fascism rises as a result of capitalist decay, and is stopped by force historically. Whether the DNC or GOP wins, fascism remains.
This doesn’t follow. If voting isn’t allowed to change anything, then people are more likely to be apathetic about it. I’ve seen many people in the streets, protesting, striking, that did not vote or voted third party.
No? I’m telling you to stop trying a failed and impossible strategy that has never worked in history, and telling you to roll up your sleeves and get involved in party building and organizing in real life, if you aren’t already. If you are, then great, vote if it makes you happy. If you aren’t, then you’re just repeating the same mistakes reformists have been making for centuries.
And because you don’t show up in anycase you won’t get change either.
The so-called democratic system in modern states is usually monopolized by the bourgeoisie and has become simply an instrument for oppressing the common people.
Chairman Mao pushing the people to voting the Japanese imperialists and KMT fascists off the mainland:
I don’t see mls driving out ICE from MN. Why would they? They can’t even be bothered to vote; much less something that takes even more effort.
Here is PSL organizing strikes and protests to kick ICE out of MN. Stop fighting strawmen.
Many groups are mentioned. Its not clear they are all mls.
PSL is the focus, and PSL is an ML party. Many of the groups mentioned are front groups, PSL has many, like CODEPINK and the ANSWER coalition. PSL also coordinates with other groups to more effectively push for change, rather than doing everything itself.
Lol, you tried to claim no mls were there, and then when got got proven catagorically wrong you tried to pivot to “they aren’t all mls!”
They even made a MWoG post after this.
I’m not surprised. This is someone who got so mad at me pointing out the Biden administration was complict in genocide that they started stalking me across the fediverse for months
Oh fuck off, plenty of my Minnesota comrades who are out there fighting ICE are Marxist-Leninist. You dont “see MLs driving out ICE” because we don’t fucking wear ID tags with our ideology on them, fuckwit. You’re just making up shit and running with it (like that Marxists have some “purity” test against voting even though plenty did vote for De la Cruz but refused to vote for a fascist genocidal Democrat which is ACTUALLY what pissed of liberals like you).
Just because we have no interest in partaking in your meaningless ritual doesn’t mean we aren’t out there making up a good portion of the front line against fascism.
Ok just to preface I am not amerikkkan so outside looking on on your many issues.
But genuine question how do you see an ml? Can you read their mind? Or do you expect them to label themselves as such on a name tag or sign? What of the people who are for all intents and purposes ml but simply don’t take on the label for one reason or another? Feels like you’re making a lot of assumptions based on vibes.
Also another question. Voting isn’t just voting under your system as I understand it. It’s a multi year process of canvassing and related work. So if bourgeois-democracy has been shown to be a dead end repeatedly throughout history it feels like wasting the hundreds of hours to prep and do it is a real misallocation of resources no?
Spreading agit-prop, showing up for “protests” (parades in the American case from what I’ve seen (this is a whole separate tangent I could go on)) and generally teaching arming and doing socialist work seems much more valuable use of time. Not hyper familiar with American orgs so I would defer to the likes of cowbee to explain in detail what the orgs are actually doing with the saved resources.
Well the server you are on ends in .ml to mean marxist lenninist, so yeah they are kind of labeled.
Im not going to repeat too much, but you can read more with my chat with @Cowbee@lemmy.ml on here. You do make a good point. It is a marathon and those take prep, but so does everything else we are doing. You are going to be reaching out and canvasing for your community food bank, your protests, and strikes. You don’t have to go all out with spending money, but formalizing yourself into your own party, which we should, marks us as real players and able to make an unset election if we are not taken into some consideration.
Outside of elections we still have some formal places to coordinate our outreach and keep putting our name out there.
@Cowbee@lemmy.ml makes it out like I am saying we should only vote, but note I am not saying that. I am saying that ignoring elections is foolish of us.
Didn’t really answer my main question since that doesn’t really apply in the situation described.
I see.
MLs would want to build credibility of their movement and they would be advertising who they are. When they houthis walk the talk and lob missiles at Israel or ships they are clear that it was them and why they are doing what they are. That helps bolster their movement and recruit more people to do even more.
If you are the group doing the action you want it known so that you can keep growing.
An important distinction here is that Ansar Allah is a militant group while “ml” is simply a political descriptor. There is no group or party called ml. ML’s make up a large portion of communist party and other groups membership alongside others who describe themselves with other labels.
No, I absolutely show up, to protests, organizing, and other real-life methods of gaining real change and growing organizational power. It’s not that voting doesn’t work because Marxists don’t vote, it’s that Marxists don’t emphasize voting because we know it doesn’t work.