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Doubles the workforceRemoves the artificial societal limit that arbitrarily cuts the workforce in halfFTFY
Tad rude to refer to children as “artificial limitations”
You can raise children while both parents are working. Billions of families do it every day. Especially if you also get rid of the notion that raising children is mostly a mother’s job while the father is free to drink beer and watch TV after work.
Removing gender roles in order to more equitably distribute the workload is progressive. You can remove morality from that equation and it still works, ergo it is absolutely something we should support and there are no reasons to perpetuate backwards gender roles.
to perpetuate backwards gender roles
I never even suggested that. Where did you get that from? All I’m saying is, people in power aren’t your friends.
Although is it a good thing that me and my wife work like crazy to keep our family going? Is this really what life is about? I’d love to be stay at home dad, yet I can’t
Both of these things are good.
Maybe a bad choice of words on my part, maybe I should write “not because it’s right, but because it doubles the workforce”
Although whether “double the workforce” is good or bad, I’d keep that for a discussion, see my other comment for more info: https://lemmy.world/comment/16185467
Are you trying to imply doubling the available workforce is not good? Its usually a good thing. While their motivations are cynical, those leaders are doing good.
…or are you trying to imply that keeping women out of the traditional work force (by only allowing them to work unpaid in the home in domestic servitude, labor that capital does not value) increases the value of male labor through scarcity, which would be preferred?
Sorry that second question kind of reads as an attack. A shitty coworker of mine said that to me unironically and tried to play it off as a joke when I pushed back.
It would be nice if one salary, no matter the gender of the breadwinner, could sustain a family.
We shouldn’t have to work to sustain a family, this idea is archaic.
I think this inherently accepts the narrative that the work women were doing before had no or little value.
That care and emotional labour should not fall solely on women and we should all have the opportunity to partake in meaningful work but we shouldn’t accept having to accept less time for care (and leisure) on some trumped up definition of what’s productive/economic or not.
As labor is further socialized (basically centralizing and then running itself without capitalist intervention) you end up having labor done by men and women and women still being responsible for more domestic duties which are labor but not considered labor(because those being done for free subsidizes capitalist profit) the solution though isn’t to keep women in the household, it is to do socialism, where domestic labor can be socialized (it isn’t under capitalism because why would you socialize labor you’re already getting for free?)
It doesn’t matter to me whether the man or woman has the job, what matters to me is that one working person could support a family, kids, owning a home, some vacations and still had enough money to save up and be generally not very concerned with finances.
Are you trying to imply doubling the available workforce is not good? Its usually a good thing.
Women not being forced to do the reproductive labour in the family? Good.
Families being coerced into having two incomes to make ends meet, meaning they don’t get as much time with their children as they like? Bad.
Sorry for late response and I see the comment is now deleted by a mod but whatever (well we’re on .ml after all).
What I was trying to point out, was the “cynical” part of it. That people in power often don’t do it because they want to empower women or help people, more often than not it’s just that it brings more people into their “meat grinder” - regardless of the regime. In case of capitalism it’s obvious but it doesn’t need to be money necessarily; in the case of Stalin - pardon me if I don’t believe that he did it for “supporting women rights and making the world a better place ✌️”, he did it for the raw economic power to compete with US during cold war and so his own country wouldn’t collapse because of his stupid actions.
Whether doubling the workforce is a good thing - that I’d keep up for a debate. I deliberately didn’t want to say anything in that area, I’m just saying that the motivation of people in power is cynical, not saying if result is good or bad.
But if you’d want my personal stance - I do believe that in order to achieve welfare/prosperity, not all the people have to work. And I do believe that there are more important things in life than working. I’d love to be a stay at home dad, but I can’t. Even though my country sort of supports it, my pay would cut dramatically and we as a family wouldn’t be able to survive.
But honestly thank you for asking. It’s very refreshing to meet a person who asks and tries to understand the motivation of the commenter rather than jumping right to the conclusion (as almost every other response here)
Yeah, and no fault divorce keeps the workforce happier and reduces domestic violence (meaning less injured and killed workers), abortion on demand makes it easier for people to continue working, and socializing former domestic labor improves the efficiency of that work and frees up labor for leisure or other labor, but those things are still good and part of the socialist feminist project.
Way to turn the communist acheivement of women’s empowerment into something negative.
I literally said it’s a positive thing, just that motivation of people in power is cynical. Also I didn’t mention communism, I meant it in general regardless of regime
Because the former Soviet Union, with all its defects, never gave much of a shit about gender roles, you are going to learn science even if it takes your whole life. I guess some of that cultured stayed after Ussr collapsed
Read Alexandra Kollontai, the liberation of women from household oppression was something they actually did give a shit about and was intentional.
They very much cared about gender roles, but also pretty early figured out that women in the workforce are economically beneficial. So the situation was (and unfortunately is) that women are shamed if they don’t earn money OR don’t look good OR don’t cook/clean/care about children. I am honestly fascinated how average woman manages these three shifts. In academia btw there’s still a huge gender bias even when women make the majority of students and generally perform better.
But at what cost?!
Lots of unnessessary deaths and emprisonment
How do you think unnecessary deaths and imprisonment in the Soviet Union were related to its egalitarian approach to education?
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…you actually believe the USSR was executing… someone… if a particular woman didn’t get a science degree?
These are liberals we’re talking about. They believe all manner of anti-communist nonsense.
Me when my country still has lynchings of black and brown people, had horrific racial discrimination during the worst of the USSRs excesses, has the highest per capita incarceration rate of overwhelmingly black and indigenous people, is responsible in part for the deaths of over 1 million Iraqis, put Japanese Americans in concentration camps during WW2 just in case they were spies, genocided their native population and still effectively operates apartheid for the remaining natives, supports the ongoing genocide of Palestinians, locked up and tortured MENA people without trial post 9/11 in an offshore torture camp, ran black sites all across Iraq and Afghanistan doing more torture of brown people and on and on and on and on and on and on…
You should really learn to spell words before you try to fight a bunch of liberal nerds.
…liberal?
Yeah isn’t Lenny.ml full of the libs?
It’s the tributary where the fresh stream of Marxism Leninism flowing from Lemmygrad and Hexbear meet the salty ocean of liberalism that is the wider internet. Most of the admin team are Marxist Leninists, but a decent portion of it’s userbase are libs, and several instances that normally block Lemmygrad and Hexbear don’t block lemmy.ml.
No, not really
No, thats just my sign of being humand instead of AI
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That’s not what the science says btw. If you go to Russia and ask old people about how they feel about the USSR, they are significantly more likely to have favourable views of the USSR than young people who didn’t experience it. If you are interested, you can also look at Generational and Geographic Effects on Collective Memory of the USSR.
Checks out with what I have heard, when I lived in a city of the former East Germany
Sure. People like to romanticize the past and the Wiedervereinigung was a shitty process that fucked many people over. But it is nice, not to live in a Planwirtschaft, to travel to other german cities without being shot at or running through mine fields and not to have a quarter of your neighbourhood spy on you to be brought to one of the Stasi torture prisons for not being socialist enough.
Wow, that sounds horrible, I bet there were a lot of prosecutions of the people who carried those things out once the government reunified!
Oh, and the physical evidence and documentation of those torture dungeons after the wall fell, there must be so much evidence of all the horrors committed!
And all the violence the evil communist government must have done to keep itself in power and prevent reunification must have been really evident, I bet we can find newspaper clippings and even video on the widespread violence that happened in an effort to hold on to power.
Wait, I’m getting reports that none of those things actually happened, fuck. It would have lined up so nicely with the narrative taught to me by American education and popular media, that’s a real bummer.
Old people in Russia will not remember the Stalin era, but the Khrushchev era (the post-gulag era, famous for de-stalinization) and the Brezhnev era. Old people also tend to romatisize their youth. And romatisizing the Soviet Union is mixed with ethno-nationalism in current days Russia.
I consider myself a socialist, but stalinism is dog-shit.
I won’t deny the scientific studies.
I am speaking from personal and family experience
You literally are, that’s what you’re doing right here. You are saying your experience trumps the data.
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- Vaguely hates communism because that’s been the western cultural norm for the last century
- Decides to talk to some people who have actually lived under communism; every single one confirms that your view of communism is wildly inaccurate and states their preference for communism
- Goes back to hating communism anyway because both sides or something
The funniest shit I read today, the guy was sooooo fucking close.
I think you should use your experiences in Azerbaijan as a push to confront some of your biases, and re-examine your understanding of Socialism in the Soviet Union. It wasn’t perfect, but it wasn’t “totalitarian” by any stretch either. The benefits of the Socialist economic structure are pined for precisely because they worked, and did so for the common people. There are improvements that can and have been made in other Socialist countries, but these improvements would not have been possible without the brave Soviet people pioneering Socialism as it exists in the real world.
Not totalitarian you say?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purges_of_the_Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
My experience in Azerbaijan also included tales of when they were children passing curds to starving prisoners through chain fences in Kazakh gulags. The Soviet Union did more harm than good to the leftist movement and is used as the scary example every single time someone begins to think twice about the capitalist system they live under. Socialism is forever tainted by the USSR and severely struggles to remove that image. Fuck the USSR.
I am aware of the Soviet Union expelling fascists and Tsarists from the party, and punishing those found corrupt, criminals, or had been members of the White Army. I am aware of the GULAG administration that formed the early Soviet prison system, read Russian Justice for more on how that functioned. I am aware of the famine in the 1930s. I have read these articles, as pretty much every Western Communist has had to, these are not “gotchas.”
The real truth of the matter is that the western anti-Communist “Left” that denounces the USSR and every real attempt at building Socialism plays into the hands of the US Empire. The Soviet Union was a massive victory for the working class, the first real Socialist state in history, and with it came dramatic improvements in key life metrics and working class dignity.
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Life expectancy doubled.
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The economy was democratized, following the method of Soviet Democracy
- Wealth inequality shrank, while economic growth boomed:
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Large expansions in social safety nets were made, such as free and high quality education and healthcare.
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Housing rates skyrocketed, and literacy rates over tripled to 99.9%.
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Food security was achieved in a country that was always food insecure.
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The Red Army defeated the Nazis, with 80% of the combat of World War II on the Eastern Front.
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The Soviet Union supported countless liberation movements, such as in Cuba, Algeria, and more.
And many, many more achievements. People who denounce the USSR maintain unstated approval for the other Great Power, the United States, which without the USSR would have been entirely unopposed. The US, which committed Imperialist slaughter and even genocide in Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Angola, Palestine, and many, many more countries, was opposed primarily by the Soviets.
The Soviet Union was by no means perfect, nobody asserts that, but to claim that the Soviet Union did “more harm than good to the Leftist movement” is ludicrous. This is the sentiment of Western Chauvanists that don’t want to support Socialism unless they are the ones who acheive it. Jones Maonel was spot on in Western Marxism Loves Purity and Martyrdom, but not Real Revolution.
You should read Dr. Michael Parenti’s Blackshirts and Reds, or at the very least the sections on “Left” Anti-Communism.
u dropped this 👑
Doing my best as a baby ML 🫡
Always love and appreciate your comments, comrade!
You’re appreciated
“Tens of millions died, but lines went up!”
You know, you’d probably make a better capitalist than you think.
Keep peddling debunked Black Book of Communism mythology, I guess.
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The Soviet Union did more harm than good to the leftist movement and is used as the scary example every single time someone begins to think twice about the capitalist system they live under. Socialism is forever tainted by the USSR and severely struggles to remove that image. Fuck the USSR.
The soviet union literally stopped nazi germany from doing a gargantuan genocide on eastern europe, it’s quite literally the biggest leftist victory hitherto and even now these eastern european countries still live off the crumbling infrastructure built during the soviet union period.
Only idiots parrot this narrative that the USSR was unimaginably bad, please educate yourself and purge this comical perception of the USSR, it’s only there to make you think there is no alternative.
You would’ve had the image of leftists destroyed no matter what, the faults of USSR is ever present and has even been maximised to the point of hilarity where it is compared with the Nazis, even if false or inaccurate or misrepresented
You could see the victories of socialism and communism within USSR and read and learn about it, but also critique the system that Stalin created alongside it which allowed repression, where it lead to millions dying in Ukraine and millions to suffer in prison, but these have been exaggerated as part of western doctrine to deface communism as much as possible, so never take it at face value
It’s extremely unfortunate that communism was cursed as not only the biggest enemy of the developed world as it was just only developing, but also had the misfortune to be lead by a leader who had little regard for democracy or democratic values in politics and which lead to later on revisionism, inefficiencies and the collapse.
but also had the misfortune to be lead by a leader who had little regard for democracy or democratic values in politics and which lead to later on revisionism, inefficiencies and the collapse.
Yeah, fuck Khrushchev
There’s a saying in the ex socialist republics. “Those who don’t miss the USSR have no heart, but those who want it back have no brains.” Think that about sums it up.
I think you just made that up.
Besides, living standards and life expectancy in the former USSR are just now recovering back to levels they were at when the USSR broke up. It makes complete sense why people would look at the last 30 years and conclude things were better before.
have u been to romania these days 😅
100% agree : I won’t deny the nostalgia factor !
Telling me what to think is totalitarian
totalitarian is when capitalists hold no political power, thus intrinsically evil.
I used to live in Chemnitz, and that’s exactly what o have done, the answers were not as I expected, most people said that, one or two things were better, the quality of life generali has gotten worse.
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I don’t think communism and ussr were saints free of all sin but on the other side of the coin I also think there is a lot of things about communism that were made up to make it look worse than it was, I mean capitalism did some propaganda. I used to live in a city that was formerly East Germany and I did ask around what people remember what it was like and what they thought was better, and most of them said they preferred the old system, one or two things are better now but the general quality of life now is worse. Me, being Portuguese, and therefor bombarded with capitalist propaganda since birth was completely 🤯
100% this. Im from Russia and I have heard many horrible stories from older relatives about previous generations and life under the USSR. Life is definitely shitty now, but it’s still better than those years
Lol you’re not even allowed to have your own personal experiences here, that’s apparently in conflict with the glorious Data.
I’m not surprised lol. For some reason, foreign fans of communism like to ignore how real people actually lived back then. +It’s funny that I also quite often came across old people who praised the USSR, but their words always sounded like “yes, we had a terrible shortage in our country, we didn’t have normal clothes, food, or medicine, and my parents were afraid to even talk about politics, BUT ice cream cost three kopecks and was tastier than now!". All the love for the USSR from them is just nostalgia for the times when they were carefree kids
Yeah the nostalgia angle sounds tough. And then you have the x-sov states that are backsliding (hungary, a bit of Czechia), I assume, based on some level of love for the authoritarian nostalgia.
Edit: apparently we can’t even accept that hungary has turned into an authoritarian state. Amazing.
No one here like Orban, you’re being down voted because that is some of the shittiest political analysis I have seen. You’re chalking up reactionary populism to Communist nostalgia- there is no ideological connection between the two.
I’m not sure how this would be considered good, it’s still oppression. The result just happens to be desirable but that doesn’t justify the way it was achieved.
If we want gender equality, it will have to be forced.
Is this a meme ?
Mysagony: the Silant Killar
“Mysagonist” misogynist… Typo or am I missing a joke about agony under Stalin?
Nothing makes you feel agony quite like free healthcare and education.
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bolshevik states aren’t famous for freedom of career choice
What is your basis for this opinion? Have you read any books, articles, or interviews on this topic?
And how much career choice do I have, really, under capitalism? Tons of jobs don’t even pay a subsistence wage, to say nothing of a wage that would let someone do basic things like own a home and raise a family. A bunch of other career paths are blocked by various types of non-merit barriers. If you do find a job that pays decently, you have very little control over the actual work and can usually be re-assigned to a different task with no recourse.
I thought this was about Soviet science, not whataboutisms?
So you haven’t actually read about the topic. You just have a vague notion of “Communism Bad” that no one around you has ever seriously questioned. When a specific topic (career choice) comes up, you feel free to make up negative claims that reinforce Communism Bad instead of putting in the work to have an informed opinion (or simply acknowledging that you don’t know!). You couple this with thought-terminating cliches (whataboutism!) to avoid anything that might upset the conclusion you’ve already reached – Communism Bad.
I brought up the comparison of career choice under capitalism because the fundamental question is which political system is better.
Where did I say communism bad?
I said whataboutism isn’t what this post is about, it’s about Soviet science.
If you have a more informed opinion besides Communism Bad, let’s hear it.
“Whataboutism” being considered a logical fallacy was made up by an Irish Unionist (as in supporting Ireland being a British colony) because he didn’t like it when people responded to “the irish resistance is violent” with “the British are magnitudes more violent and their violence wouldn’t stop if the violent resistance stopped”
Consider understanding the historical context of a line of argumentation before using it.
libtard
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