They say that GNU is spreading misinformation and “stop getting info from charlatans”?
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You deleted your last post on a similar topic, which had some excellent discussion and comments, and now all of that good content for lemmy is gone.
Deleting posts is not great for the community.
As bad as reddit is, it does suck that a lot of people who left decided to wipe all their comments/posts too. Huge amount of useful data just gone.
Yes but millions were also providing that data for free until Reddit decided it was all theirs to control and monetize. Don’t blame the users.
Saying it sucks = blaming the users? Okay.
Way to distract from otherwise good argument about firmware. Really dumb take. In case you think I’m being flippant, let me present an alternative blob:
GNU are striving for the ideal goal of fully open source hardware and software. Their statement correctly highlights the compromises of the reality of using proprietary hardware which requires proprietary firmware; compounded by the reality of oligopolies maintaining their market positions via proprietary software. Our take is that providing an otherwise open source OS within this reality is significantly better for people than letting full corporate control reign until open mobile hardware becomes practical and common, if it ever does.
Pointless over-reaction from GrapheneOS. GNU is harshly honest about the open-source stuff - blobs are obviously, proprietary, and so are Google-based softwares and services.
I’m afraid to ask this because I’m not a dev, but I have a fair amount of linux experience. Why is it that the ability to install Google Play Services on GrapheneOS makes it not FOSS/open source, while the ability to install Google Chrome (or any proprietary software, I guess) on Linux doesn’t make is non-FOSS/open source?
I’m not articulating that question very well, and I’m assuming I’m missing some key component, but they seem comparable to me, as a regular user. Is it something like the level of access that GPServices has to the kernel?
Thank you for asking a question that you were afraid to.
You could just have easily moved on, but instead you give others the opportunity to share their knowledge and subsequently you give other people opportunities to learn.
Maybe one day we can have an internet not so full of snarky replies, and instead one where everyone is given opportunities to learn, and ask, without fear of being belittled.
In order to give those with knowledge the opportunities to share, we need to ask questions that are indicative of our current understanding (or lack thereof).
It may sound silly, but asking questions really is a vulnerable act. Genuine questions are often met with unjustified and unhelpful hostility on the internet.
tl;dr: Thanks for asking! Now I’m wondering the same thing.
edit: a word
I don’t have a precise answer as I’m not from that team, but as a developer I think I have a decent idea as to why, and it’s mostly political.
First, I don’t think it’s necessarily the ability to install Play Services that makes them think it’s not FOSS, but that they distribute non-free firmware blobs which are necessary to make practically any modern phone function properly, that’s just the unfortunate reality because “we live in a society” that enables it. GNU would rather have things that are not practical and don’t exist today… their stance is not currently realistic in our capitalist society IMO. They hope for things to change, but hope doesn’t make change.
I also think some people look down on the Play Services thing merely because they went out of their way to explicitly support it in the OS, and basically nothing else. They disagree ideologically with F-Droid and they don’t offer any other app stores by default to my knowledge.
Unfortunately, the FSF isn’t against firmware blobs, only against those updatable by a user.
From their Respects Your Freedom requirements page.
However, there is one exception for secondary embedded processors. The exception applies to software delivered inside auxiliary and low-level processors and FPGAs, within which software installation is not intended after the user obtains the product. This can include, for instance, microcode inside a processor, firmware built into an I/O device, or the gate pattern of an FPGA. The software in such secondary processors does not count as product software.
This means that proprietary firmware flashed at the factory and impossible to replace gets a pass, while hardware with firmware updates through blobs is rejected. Important security fixes (CPU microcode) or stability improvements will be missing if you can’t update the firmware.
And thats why they advocate open hardware
Sure and that’s the ideal, but as it currently stands the FSF would rank hardware like this:
- Fully open source
- Proprietary flashed in factory and impossible to replace
- Proprietary and can be updated/replaced
This makes no sense for security, stability or ideological reasons.
I’m not a fan of GrapheneOS, but the point they bring up here is valid. There is already proprietary firmware on your computer. There’s no reason why you shouldn’t be updating it to protect yourself from serious exploits. The FSF takes an ideological stance rather than a practical one, unfortunately.
Except they also advocate using compute devices that only use blobless firmware
Yeah, the FSF stance on firmware is really weird.
Basically, if the firmware is not intended to be updated it’s fine. But distributing updates, like security fixes, for firmware as blobs is somehow bad.
However, there is one exception for secondary embedded processors. The exception applies to software delivered inside auxiliary and low-level processors and FPGAs, within which software installation is not intended after the user obtains the product. This can include, for instance, microcode inside a processor, firmware built into an I/O device, or the gate pattern of an FPGA. The software in such secondary processors does not count as product software.
https://ryf.fsf.org/about/criteria
Here’s an article from the previous time (?) this topic came up.
This is begging the question, there’s nothing confusing or incorrect about what GrapheneOS posted. GNU/FSF is a cult that has always been making their own arbitrary rules for what qualifies and what does not qualify as free software (I am not saying the OSI is any better in that regard, Raymond is a clown).
I highly suggest reading this mailing list thread where RMS fails to understand copyright law and thinks you can relicense permissive code to GPL, and refuses to call OpenBSD free because the ports system can be used to build a few pieces of non-free software, even though no parts of the ports tree itself are non-free (wait until he hears you can download Windows ISOs off of a web browser).
Since I consider non-free software to be unethical and antisocial, I think it would be wrong for me to recommend it to others.
OpenBSD does not contain non-free software (though I am not sure whether it contains any non-free firmware blobs). However, its ports system does suggest non-free programs, or at least so I was told when I looked for some BSD variant that I could recommend. I therefore exercise my freedom of speech by not including OpenBSD in the list of systems that I recommend to the public.
my god. Yeah, he’s technically correct, but he’s so self righteous about it. I think of PopOS, probably the best OS I’ve ever used. However when you open the shop, he would just pass out because they shock recommend discord and others.
But that’s what people want. If you open the shop and don’t see the discord app, people would be frustrated. It’s there because people use it. Hell I use it. But according to him even the act of just suggesting something closed source, even if people want it, is … “unethical”?
Like dude, I love OSS a lot, more than the average, but just suggesting a download, (probably because it’s by the most popular), I think is a far cry from “unethical”.
100% agreed with you.
We do, however, need zealots in the ecosystem, they serve a purpose, we just can’t let perfect be the enemy of good when it comes to usability, security, and privacy.
Seems the real issue is that GrapheneOS makes it possible to get google play installed via their sandboxing, that people take offence to calling it FOSS software…
Sure, fair enough, makes sense, they just need to fork the project and maintain the fork and don’t include the sandboxing. It’s a open code base (because its FOSS, heh) they can do whatever they want to it.
We do, however, need zealots in the ecosystem
This is a very important point. I left the rest of the sentence not because it’s not important but because most people understand that part.
Raymond is a fucking incel. His site is a collection of cringe and “yes, this entry here, officer”.
Because strcat is fucking nuts
However I’m still using GOS as theres no other better options
Because there is nothing that exists today that is completely, from head-to-tail, open source. Being allowed and able to install closed source software does not make an open ecosystem suddenly closed.
Plenty of Linux systems today rely on binary blobs to make hardware work. Plenty of software can run on an open source ecosystem while itself being closed source.
Richard Stallman is a toe-booger eating weirdo looking for attention.
What was it I saw recently… There was a FOSS podcast player that is completely open and available, but it was demonized because you could (optionally) add the apples/itunes feed. Like reading an RSS feed from apple made it not “FOSS”
That’s where I eyeroll hard. Ffs, having the option to use something proprietary does not closed source make. It was one part of one area of the app, that was like, a dropdown selection.
Lemmy world go home
