I’ll bite. The democrats aren’t listening to us, we have two options: not support them in the election or (it was surprising to see this one end up in the news recently) an appeal to heaven.
If you think trump is too much of a threat, that the president we already had will destroy democracy and there won’t be a 2028 election, that the most important thing is to keep out a candidate who didn’t accept it the last time he was declared the loser of an election and has had four years to prepare for this one as evidenced by project 2024, stop trying to get people to vote for the democrats and start stockpiling ammunition and training to oppose trump supporters in the streets instead.
SCOTUS is right now still somehow deliberating on whether a president is allowed to Night of the Long Knives or not. SCOTUS is already taking away rights from my friends and neighbors. You may be privileged enough to pretend it won’t affect you, I guess.
You think you aren’t being heard now, it isn’t going to improve under a fascist regime that ends voting with their Project 2025 shit. Have you not been paying attention to how Repubs have dealt with protesters? Yeah, becoming an armed insurgent would be the only option for change remaining once it gets to that point.
Wait, the unelected branches of government are restricting rights of minorities and giving power to the executive branch now but we won’t have fascism to fight against until this one guy wins an election?
What happened last time he wasn’t declared the winner of an election? What makes you think that wouldn’t be a concern this time around? How do you square that with the degree of preparation that went into project 2025?
Let me make my thesis crystal clear: if you believe that trump will usher in American fascism and you recognize that he won’t accept the results of the election, you don’t need to get people to vote for Biden to make sure the results of the election aren’t in favor of trump, you need to prepare to physically confront trump supporters in the streets with guns and training to prevent a for real this time coup.
I’m not saying that to get you to go out and buy an ar-15 and a plate carrier (although you should, theyre not getting any cheaper), but to get you to recognize the absurdity of holding all those beliefs together.
I do think that’s a concern this time around. I think the best chance at stopping it is not giving him the legal right to take office, and not giving him a blank check to Long Knife whomever he wants.
Yeah, I guess I see your point also. Assume the country will be attacked either way. Get ready to defend myself if not fight for it. I don’t disagree.
I still remain unconvinced that it is a good move to throw a vote away instead of casting it against Donald.
It’s pretty ahistorical to suggest that the law is a shield against fascism. Even if it weren’t, you came out of the gate saying that the judiciary, the organ of government which interprets the laws, is already fascist.
Rather than accepting the idea that you need to become a new type of fighting true patriot, armed, ready and able to defend the country against its enemies, I had hoped you would see that the government isn’t worth defending and that the future you want can’t be delivered by it no matter which of the two major parties is in power.
If a person accepted that reality it’s no big leap to vote for a party they actually support, considering that party will benefit from event and ballot presence, media appearances, public awareness and funding due directly to the ballots cast for them this go round even if they don’t win.
Of course that means voting for a party, not a person. I have been throwing the party for socialism and liberation out there because it represents my own politics and ideas, but there are others.
It is ahistorical to think a third party will win at all with FPTP. Libertarian Gary Johnson had over three times more votes than Stein in 2016 and he only got a bit past 3%. Neither of them had actual EC votes.
The government is not going to trend towards leftism from voting. It is going to trend towards fascism and authoritarianism because the Repubs reliably come out to vote and will vote for someone who already did a putsch and is openly talking about dictatorship and assassinating political opponents. The Dems are going to trend (further) towards fascism chasing the middle voter if they do get another chance.
Plenty of countries have managed to be authoritarian for decades if not longer, but perhaps the regime would be toppled after a period of war. I don’t think there’s any guarantee an improved government would form out of the rubble from that.
Well, I don’t think a third party will win either to be honest. That’s why I didn’t say it would or that the third party voter should only do so if they can win. I think a strong third party showing like what you described from greens and libertarians from a party that does grassroots organizing like psl would build political power that doesn’t come from the extant local/state bourgeois and national/global bourgeois structures.
That newly built political power would either have its ideas folded into one of the major parties or would fundamentally change the political landscape of the imperial core and become a new major political party or even some unknown third outcome!
I agree with you that voting isn’t gonna turn the government towards leftism of any kind. A leftist third party vote will though tip the scale however imperceptibly towards giving attention, material advantages and public awareness to those ideas.
Now if you’re like me, and you believe that there’s no future with the republicans or democrats, then it’s a no-brainer to vote for a leftist party like psl.
But for a person who sees the ratchet effect in action yet still believes it to be reversible, who believes that the democrats can be good enough to oppose fascism instead of just being its handmaidens, I also believe a third party leftist vote is a no-brainer: it forces the democrats to see your views.
They cant twist your ideas, they can’t say they have a mandate to continue the genocide, they can’t deepfake or dismiss you because you told them in clear, unequivocal terms exactly what votes they could get and in what districts they could win if they had those policies and platforms.
If you don’t care weather we get a new ascendant egalitarian American labor movement that ushers in an end to global neoliberalism or the democrats cynically adopt left wing policies and platforms as long as things get better then a third party vote for the leftist party of your choice is best.
In a world where the Repubs would also vote rationally it might be the right choice. But they’re all in on this guy. They’re all in on whoever it is every election. Fox has brainwashed a huge swath of the country. Even worse, the land area gets the voting power instead of the people. So the Dems are only ever going to actually care about the opinions of a few select districts in a few select states.
And I don’t think you see as much of a difference between Dems and Repubs as I do, so you view Donald as less of a risk than I do. I think it was a huge disaster 2017-2021 and it would be complete and (this time) irreversible disaster 2025 to whenever. I’m still not sure if 2017 was reversible TBH.
I appreciate the dialogue but I think we’ve reached the point where our fundamental beliefs about it are just at odds. Neither of us will convince each other to be all the way on the other’s position. Let’s conclude amicably (I think we were).
(I don’t mean to cut you off, if you had closing thoughts to respond with here, I’ll read them. But I might not follow up.)
You don’t need to respond to anything you don’t want to. I’m not trying to convince you of anything, but I hope that someone who reads our exchange and doesn’t feel comfortable with your outlook yet still wants to vote or can’t let themselves give up in despair will see mine as an alternative.
How do you think the republican base voting rationally would make a leftist third party vote the right choice? I tried to work within your own suppositions that the system is fundamentally broken and that we already have fascism to construct my arguments, I can’t see how the way the conservative base votes plays into that.
If you’re willing to elaborate on the differences between the democrats and republicans you see I’m always interested to hear them. I also think that they’re different but that those differences aren’t significant enough in word or deed to make me consider one over the other.
I’d also be interested in hearing what made trumps first term so disastrous and why you think it might not be undone.
I’ll bite. The democrats aren’t listening to us, we have two options: not support them in the election or (it was surprising to see this one end up in the news recently) an appeal to heaven.
If you think trump is too much of a threat, that the president we already had will destroy democracy and there won’t be a 2028 election, that the most important thing is to keep out a candidate who didn’t accept it the last time he was declared the loser of an election and has had four years to prepare for this one as evidenced by project 2024, stop trying to get people to vote for the democrats and start stockpiling ammunition and training to oppose trump supporters in the streets instead.
SCOTUS is right now still somehow deliberating on whether a president is allowed to Night of the Long Knives or not. SCOTUS is already taking away rights from my friends and neighbors. You may be privileged enough to pretend it won’t affect you, I guess.
You think you aren’t being heard now, it isn’t going to improve under a fascist regime that ends voting with their Project 2025 shit. Have you not been paying attention to how Repubs have dealt with protesters? Yeah, becoming an armed insurgent would be the only option for change remaining once it gets to that point.
That’s cool, though, you do you.
Wait, the unelected branches of government are restricting rights of minorities and giving power to the executive branch now but we won’t have fascism to fight against until this one guy wins an election?
What happened last time he wasn’t declared the winner of an election? What makes you think that wouldn’t be a concern this time around? How do you square that with the degree of preparation that went into project 2025?
Let me make my thesis crystal clear: if you believe that trump will usher in American fascism and you recognize that he won’t accept the results of the election, you don’t need to get people to vote for Biden to make sure the results of the election aren’t in favor of trump, you need to prepare to physically confront trump supporters in the streets with guns and training to prevent a for real this time coup.
I’m not saying that to get you to go out and buy an ar-15 and a plate carrier (although you should, theyre not getting any cheaper), but to get you to recognize the absurdity of holding all those beliefs together.
I do think that’s a concern this time around. I think the best chance at stopping it is not giving him the legal right to take office, and not giving him a blank check to Long Knife whomever he wants.
Yeah, I guess I see your point also. Assume the country will be attacked either way. Get ready to defend myself if not fight for it. I don’t disagree.
I still remain unconvinced that it is a good move to throw a vote away instead of casting it against Donald.
It’s pretty ahistorical to suggest that the law is a shield against fascism. Even if it weren’t, you came out of the gate saying that the judiciary, the organ of government which interprets the laws, is already fascist.
Rather than accepting the idea that you need to become a new type of fighting true patriot, armed, ready and able to defend the country against its enemies, I had hoped you would see that the government isn’t worth defending and that the future you want can’t be delivered by it no matter which of the two major parties is in power.
If a person accepted that reality it’s no big leap to vote for a party they actually support, considering that party will benefit from event and ballot presence, media appearances, public awareness and funding due directly to the ballots cast for them this go round even if they don’t win.
Of course that means voting for a party, not a person. I have been throwing the party for socialism and liberation out there because it represents my own politics and ideas, but there are others.
It is ahistorical to think a third party will win at all with FPTP. Libertarian Gary Johnson had over three times more votes than Stein in 2016 and he only got a bit past 3%. Neither of them had actual EC votes.
The government is not going to trend towards leftism from voting. It is going to trend towards fascism and authoritarianism because the Repubs reliably come out to vote and will vote for someone who already did a putsch and is openly talking about dictatorship and assassinating political opponents. The Dems are going to trend (further) towards fascism chasing the middle voter if they do get another chance.
Plenty of countries have managed to be authoritarian for decades if not longer, but perhaps the regime would be toppled after a period of war. I don’t think there’s any guarantee an improved government would form out of the rubble from that.
Well, I don’t think a third party will win either to be honest. That’s why I didn’t say it would or that the third party voter should only do so if they can win. I think a strong third party showing like what you described from greens and libertarians from a party that does grassroots organizing like psl would build political power that doesn’t come from the extant local/state bourgeois and national/global bourgeois structures.
That newly built political power would either have its ideas folded into one of the major parties or would fundamentally change the political landscape of the imperial core and become a new major political party or even some unknown third outcome!
I agree with you that voting isn’t gonna turn the government towards leftism of any kind. A leftist third party vote will though tip the scale however imperceptibly towards giving attention, material advantages and public awareness to those ideas.
Now if you’re like me, and you believe that there’s no future with the republicans or democrats, then it’s a no-brainer to vote for a leftist party like psl.
But for a person who sees the ratchet effect in action yet still believes it to be reversible, who believes that the democrats can be good enough to oppose fascism instead of just being its handmaidens, I also believe a third party leftist vote is a no-brainer: it forces the democrats to see your views.
They cant twist your ideas, they can’t say they have a mandate to continue the genocide, they can’t deepfake or dismiss you because you told them in clear, unequivocal terms exactly what votes they could get and in what districts they could win if they had those policies and platforms.
If you don’t care weather we get a new ascendant egalitarian American labor movement that ushers in an end to global neoliberalism or the democrats cynically adopt left wing policies and platforms as long as things get better then a third party vote for the leftist party of your choice is best.
In a world where the Repubs would also vote rationally it might be the right choice. But they’re all in on this guy. They’re all in on whoever it is every election. Fox has brainwashed a huge swath of the country. Even worse, the land area gets the voting power instead of the people. So the Dems are only ever going to actually care about the opinions of a few select districts in a few select states.
And I don’t think you see as much of a difference between Dems and Repubs as I do, so you view Donald as less of a risk than I do. I think it was a huge disaster 2017-2021 and it would be complete and (this time) irreversible disaster 2025 to whenever. I’m still not sure if 2017 was reversible TBH.
I appreciate the dialogue but I think we’ve reached the point where our fundamental beliefs about it are just at odds. Neither of us will convince each other to be all the way on the other’s position. Let’s conclude amicably (I think we were).
(I don’t mean to cut you off, if you had closing thoughts to respond with here, I’ll read them. But I might not follow up.)
You don’t need to respond to anything you don’t want to. I’m not trying to convince you of anything, but I hope that someone who reads our exchange and doesn’t feel comfortable with your outlook yet still wants to vote or can’t let themselves give up in despair will see mine as an alternative.
How do you think the republican base voting rationally would make a leftist third party vote the right choice? I tried to work within your own suppositions that the system is fundamentally broken and that we already have fascism to construct my arguments, I can’t see how the way the conservative base votes plays into that.
If you’re willing to elaborate on the differences between the democrats and republicans you see I’m always interested to hear them. I also think that they’re different but that those differences aren’t significant enough in word or deed to make me consider one over the other.
I’d also be interested in hearing what made trumps first term so disastrous and why you think it might not be undone.