Congrats on completely ignoring everything I said about the nuances of Civil Rights Era politics and instead finding sources that only uses, “liberal,” and, “conservative,” as they refer to socal policies of the time. Don’t think too hard about the fact that Dirksen was a staunch fiscal conservative who supported the Vietnam War, or that Strom Thurmond was a New Deal Democrat who supported public spending on the working class. I wouldn’t want you to disrupt the ahistorical dichotomy you’ve created for yourself! Maybe Google, “tankie,” before you use that word again, because you have no idea what it means! Good luck with the scholarships!
Pardon me, but I thought it best to cut through the noise (e.g., patent finger-in-ears denial akin to, “Nuh-uh!”) and go straight to citing primary sources of which you curiously deflected; you see, you learn to do that with those fancy scholarships :)
To the contrary I’m pretty sure I pinned you into a corner after trying to claim it was conservatives not liberals who were the standard-bearers of the change. Here you’re not trying to play games of equivocation and move the goalpost by essentially allegings, “buT LiBeRals AREn’T ReEallY LibERals!” I mean — what?
I really don’t need to go any further, and it’s a remarkable reality of your position that you cannot rummage up a single academic source to counter what I had already provided. However, it’s a new day and I’ve got my coffee so let’s address some bullshit:
You seem to believe that the Republicans said, “actually, we want to do racism now, let’s start the Southern Strategy!” and all the good Republicans that voted for the Civil Rights Act became Liberal Democrats
Straw-man. No, that is not what I’m saying at all. If you would’ve read more closely what I wrote a couple responses back, you would’ve recalled that I noted the transition took time and didn’t complete really until the '70s or even arguably Reagan. Considering
You’re congratulating good white Liberals for passing the Civil Rights Act, when many of the major supporters would be considered conservatives and most of the opponents would be considered Liberals by most metrics.
You’re just not making any sense, here. (1) All the union strength and support was in the North. (2) YOU said it was a regional differentiation, with northerners voting in greater numbers. (3) Ergo, the vast majority of support came from districts and states predominantly pro-Union. So… ??? Or what, do you think the southern state’s rights anti-union confederates suddenly decided to turn out in great numbers to support the bill…? Let me again remind you what actual historians have to say:
the biggest headaches for Democratic leader Mike Mansfield often came not from Republicans but from the conservative bloc of his own party caucus
Dominating the GOP caucus, many conservatives believed the civil rights bill represented an unprecedented intrusion by the state into the daily lives of Americans.
You had a battle with the conservatives on the committee, the southern Democrats, conservative Republicans, but you had just as tough a battle with the liberals. Their position was the old story of the half loaf or three-quarters of a loaf, and [now they were saying] “we’ll settle for nothing less [than the whole loaf.]” . . . We shared their views, and we’d love to do it their way.
… But hey, why don’t you go tell those scholars they’re using the ideological labels incorrectly ;)
There really isn’t much more to say. My original claim was: “not a single Tankie was in Congress who voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, now, did they? So yes, thank a Liberal for actually getting shit done.” From that:
I PROVED:
Liberals of the time among BOTH parties — predominantly in the North — supported Civil Rights in greater numbers
Liberals were the majority of its YES votes
Liberals wanted a STRONGER Civil Rights bill
Conservatives among BOTH parties — predominantly in the south — opposed the bill in greater numbers
Conservatives sough ta WEAKER Civil Rights bill
No Tankies passed the Civil Rights Act. (I have to note this as part of my original claim).
I REMINDED YOU:
That because the parties were still in transition and the great realignment incomplete, there were lingering liberals and conservatives on both sides.
But that doesn’t change the fact that the majority of ardent support for the bill came from those further to the left on the political-spectrum and were ostensible liberals for the time-period. (Again, proven by quoted sources).
Liberals of today are less conservative than then, sure.
But Liberals of then were still more progressive than their conservative counter-parts.
Such Liberals who would become demographically-identical to the modern-day liberals (as proven by mere geographical region alone and the fact that Civil Rights leaders of then eventually JOINED the ranks of Democrats of today (e.g., James Clyburn, John Lewis).
You keep referencing party banners without looking at the underlying ideology, all the while admitting yourself that the parties were still in ideological realignment.
I therefore entirely reject the notion I’m, “cataclysmically wrong.” Seems I’m actually right on the money.
Finally isn’t it funny you quote MLK’s “White Moderates” remark in 1963 who is ostensibly speaking of what we’d consider centrist liberal Dems today and those very white moderates did end up passing the bill in 1964? You still continue to deflect this amusingly.
Buddy, I can’t help you. If don’t want to acknowledge how much of the Democrats economically Liberal coalition were segregationists, I can’t help you. If you want to believe that the Conservatives who supported Civil Rights legislation were actually Liberals, I can’t help you. If you want to pretend that the leftist Civil Rights leaders who were beaten, jailed, and lynched did less for Civil Rights than the Congressmen they pressured into adopting their movement, I can’t help you. If you want to say, “mLk ShAmEd CeNtRisTs BuT a YeAr LaTeR tHeY vOtEd FoR CiViL rIgHtS! HoW oDd!!!” WITHOUT EVER QUESTIONING IF THOSE TWO EVENTS WERE RELATED, I can’t help you.
Anyway, I can’t help you with the substance, but maybe I can help you with the style. The overly formal language you’re using? (“Ergo,” “I therefore entirely reject,” “you continue to deflect this amusingly.”) It may make you sound smart to dumb people, but it makes you sound dumb to smart people. It’s unnatural and reeks of somebody who’s trying to hard. It’s why that other guy keeps posting that little meme of a smug guy under your comments. He’s making fun of how cringey you sound.
Anyway, that’s the best I can do for you. Go be wrong at someone else.
If I can’t get through with direct quotes from those who were a part of that era, specifically noting liberals FOR and conservatives OPPOSED
If I can’t cite primary historical sources from Senate.gov and Archives.gov detailing the same.
If you can’t muster a single source to support your position that contrasts what I already cited, as you simultaneously ignore these direct quotes…
… Then I believe we are done here.
It may make you sound smart to dumb people, but it makes you sound dumb to smart people. It’s unnatural and reeks of somebody who’s trying to hard. It’s why that other guy keeps posting that little meme of a smug guy under your comments. He’s making fun of how cringey you sound.
Buddy, if you can’t actually remark on exactly where I’m using language wrong, then it’s FAR more probable that my word-choice might just strike above what you’re used to and this a desperate attempt to sling shade.
Besides, if I “dumbed down” my language to my Appalachian roots, then you’d try condescension with me and espouse how much more educated and academic you are to me. Apparently I beat you to the punch, and that upsets you. Who knows – maybe there’s a bit of personal insecurity and projection going on here. All I know is that it’s a pretty fucking pathetic low-blow. Should be noted that I tend to reflect the tone and let them stoop to a lower level. So maybe look in the mirror. If you can’t take it, then don’t dish it out, buddy.
As for the other user, I don’t really care — that kid’s frankly not that bright or informed on the issues. At least you presented a cogent argument by contrast. If you think I’m being smug, go join the fucking Trumpers who cry about elitism and feeling insecure around people who are educated — I really don’t care, buddy. Now until you actually respond to my sources, my logic, instead of hopping around more than the Easter bunny, then kindly stay down.
Frankly because now your argument has descended into personal attacks on me it sounds like you’re — as you said — “cataclysmically” desperate.
I think for fun I’ll just re-quote the primary sources:
the biggest headaches for Democratic leader Mike Mansfield often came not from Republicans but from the conservative bloc of his own party caucus
Dominating the GOP caucus, many conservatives believed the civil rights bill represented an unprecedented intrusion by the state into the daily lives of Americans.
You had a battle with the conservatives on the committee, the southern Democrats, conservative Republicans, but you had just as tough a battle with the liberals. Their position was the old story of the half loaf or three-quarters of a loaf, and [now they were saying] “we’ll settle for nothing less [than the whole loaf.]” . . . We shared their views, and we’d love to do it their way.
Speaking frankly: you’re just not worth responding seriously to. You treat every interaction as if it’s the worst type of performative debate, and every point is argued antagonistically and purposefully misrepresentative of the comment being responded to.
I learned a long time ago that being earnest with anyone so eager for ‘debate’ online is pretty pointless.
I’m not worth it, but boy do you go around replying to all my comments obsessively! What’s wrong with taking serious discussions, well, seriously? Sorry, I’m just not a meme person, and I frankly don’t believe I remotely approached the pettiness as you and the other user in striking low to substitute a lack of substantive rebuttal.
Have you entertained the humbling possibility you’re just being out-classed and that’s making you uncomfortable? I mean when you make legitimate points I’m willing to yield, such as when you gave me that link to a more recent poll on US perception of Israeli actions.
I know Trump speaks and writes at a 4th grade level and with more memes though — maybe that’s more your speed?
You’ve been active in exactly the same post comments as I have been, I’ve seen you everywhere this week and I find it difficult not to mock you because you make it so goddamn fun.
Have you entertained the humbling possibility you’re just being out-classed and that’s making you uncomfortable?
This is exactly the ‘performative debatelord’ behavior I’m talking about. It would be one thing if we were having a disagreement we were working through, but you treat it like it’s boxing match. I’m under no obligation to speak with you, let alone enter into some strange sparring match where positions are just weapons to wield against an opponent that you pick up and put down when it’s convenient. Even your use of the word ‘yield’ is reflective of this weird adversarial behavior that is hard not to regard as incredibly adolescent and worthy of scorn.
Ok, Formal Frank is going back to bed now, here comes Silly Willy. I’m turning my meme-mode setting back on, just as a fair warning that any further attempts at defeating me in the marketplace of ideas will be met with unrelenting mockery.
I feel I’ve done nothing of the sort. I’m entirely supportive of engaging in the mutual pursuit of truth, but when my opposition first engages in bad faith arguments, deflections, fallacies, then snarky adolescent memes followed by personal attacks then you open the door to me responding however I wish. It’s not my fault you lack the capacity to discuss formally and maturely.
If you go back to the beginning you’ll find you engaged in these downward-spiraling antics first.
In other words you’re holding me to a higher standard then you hold yourself. Embrace some humility and learn from your mistakes.
Congrats on completely ignoring everything I said about the nuances of Civil Rights Era politics and instead finding sources that only uses, “liberal,” and, “conservative,” as they refer to socal policies of the time. Don’t think too hard about the fact that Dirksen was a staunch fiscal conservative who supported the Vietnam War, or that Strom Thurmond was a New Deal Democrat who supported public spending on the working class. I wouldn’t want you to disrupt the ahistorical dichotomy you’ve created for yourself! Maybe Google, “tankie,” before you use that word again, because you have no idea what it means! Good luck with the scholarships!
Pardon me, but I thought it best to cut through the noise (e.g., patent finger-in-ears denial akin to, “Nuh-uh!”) and go straight to citing primary sources of which you curiously deflected; you see, you learn to do that with those fancy scholarships :)
To the contrary I’m pretty sure I pinned you into a corner after trying to claim it was conservatives not liberals who were the standard-bearers of the change. Here you’re not trying to play games of equivocation and move the goalpost by essentially allegings, “buT LiBeRals AREn’T ReEallY LibERals!” I mean — what?
I really don’t need to go any further, and it’s a remarkable reality of your position that you cannot rummage up a single academic source to counter what I had already provided. However, it’s a new day and I’ve got my coffee so let’s address some bullshit:
Straw-man. No, that is not what I’m saying at all. If you would’ve read more closely what I wrote a couple responses back, you would’ve recalled that I noted the transition took time and didn’t complete really until the '70s or even arguably Reagan. Considering
You’re just not making any sense, here. (1) All the union strength and support was in the North. (2) YOU said it was a regional differentiation, with northerners voting in greater numbers. (3) Ergo, the vast majority of support came from districts and states predominantly pro-Union. So… ??? Or what, do you think the southern state’s rights anti-union confederates suddenly decided to turn out in great numbers to support the bill…? Let me again remind you what actual historians have to say:
… But hey, why don’t you go tell those scholars they’re using the ideological labels incorrectly ;)
There really isn’t much more to say. My original claim was: “not a single Tankie was in Congress who voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964, now, did they? So yes, thank a Liberal for actually getting shit done.” From that:
I PROVED:
I REMINDED YOU:
I therefore entirely reject the notion I’m, “cataclysmically wrong.” Seems I’m actually right on the money.
Finally isn’t it funny you quote MLK’s “White Moderates” remark in 1963 who is ostensibly speaking of what we’d consider centrist liberal Dems today and those very white moderates did end up passing the bill in 1964? You still continue to deflect this amusingly.
Buddy, I can’t help you. If don’t want to acknowledge how much of the Democrats economically Liberal coalition were segregationists, I can’t help you. If you want to believe that the Conservatives who supported Civil Rights legislation were actually Liberals, I can’t help you. If you want to pretend that the leftist Civil Rights leaders who were beaten, jailed, and lynched did less for Civil Rights than the Congressmen they pressured into adopting their movement, I can’t help you. If you want to say, “mLk ShAmEd CeNtRisTs BuT a YeAr LaTeR tHeY vOtEd FoR CiViL rIgHtS! HoW oDd!!!” WITHOUT EVER QUESTIONING IF THOSE TWO EVENTS WERE RELATED, I can’t help you.
Anyway, I can’t help you with the substance, but maybe I can help you with the style. The overly formal language you’re using? (“Ergo,” “I therefore entirely reject,” “you continue to deflect this amusingly.”) It may make you sound smart to dumb people, but it makes you sound dumb to smart people. It’s unnatural and reeks of somebody who’s trying to hard. It’s why that other guy keeps posting that little meme of a smug guy under your comments. He’s making fun of how cringey you sound.
Anyway, that’s the best I can do for you. Go be wrong at someone else.
Buddy:
If I can’t get through with direct quotes from those who were a part of that era, specifically noting liberals FOR and conservatives OPPOSED
If I can’t cite primary historical sources from Senate.gov and Archives.gov detailing the same.
If you can’t muster a single source to support your position that contrasts what I already cited, as you simultaneously ignore these direct quotes…
… Then I believe we are done here.
Buddy, if you can’t actually remark on exactly where I’m using language wrong, then it’s FAR more probable that my word-choice might just strike above what you’re used to and this a desperate attempt to sling shade.
Besides, if I “dumbed down” my language to my Appalachian roots, then you’d try condescension with me and espouse how much more educated and academic you are to me. Apparently I beat you to the punch, and that upsets you. Who knows – maybe there’s a bit of personal insecurity and projection going on here. All I know is that it’s a pretty fucking pathetic low-blow. Should be noted that I tend to reflect the tone and let them stoop to a lower level. So maybe look in the mirror. If you can’t take it, then don’t dish it out, buddy.
As for the other user, I don’t really care — that kid’s frankly not that bright or informed on the issues. At least you presented a cogent argument by contrast. If you think I’m being smug, go join the fucking Trumpers who cry about elitism and feeling insecure around people who are educated — I really don’t care, buddy. Now until you actually respond to my sources, my logic, instead of hopping around more than the Easter bunny, then kindly stay down.
Frankly because now your argument has descended into personal attacks on me it sounds like you’re — as you said — “cataclysmically” desperate.
I think for fun I’ll just re-quote the primary sources:
Go be wrong at someone else.
Look at that false confidence.
No, I’m good right here.
Speaking frankly: you’re just not worth responding seriously to. You treat every interaction as if it’s the worst type of performative debate, and every point is argued antagonistically and purposefully misrepresentative of the comment being responded to.
I learned a long time ago that being earnest with anyone so eager for ‘debate’ online is pretty pointless.
Maybe next time you’ll at least be more subtle.
I’m not worth it, but boy do you go around replying to all my comments obsessively! What’s wrong with taking serious discussions, well, seriously? Sorry, I’m just not a meme person, and I frankly don’t believe I remotely approached the pettiness as you and the other user in striking low to substitute a lack of substantive rebuttal.
Have you entertained the humbling possibility you’re just being out-classed and that’s making you uncomfortable? I mean when you make legitimate points I’m willing to yield, such as when you gave me that link to a more recent poll on US perception of Israeli actions.
I know Trump speaks and writes at a 4th grade level and with more memes though — maybe that’s more your speed?
You’ve been active in exactly the same post comments as I have been, I’ve seen you everywhere this week and I find it difficult not to mock you because you make it so goddamn fun.
This is exactly the ‘performative debatelord’ behavior I’m talking about. It would be one thing if we were having a disagreement we were working through, but you treat it like it’s boxing match. I’m under no obligation to speak with you, let alone enter into some strange sparring match where positions are just weapons to wield against an opponent that you pick up and put down when it’s convenient. Even your use of the word ‘yield’ is reflective of this weird adversarial behavior that is hard not to regard as incredibly adolescent and worthy of scorn.
Ok, Formal Frank is going back to bed now, here comes Silly Willy. I’m turning my meme-mode setting back on, just as a fair warning that any further attempts at defeating me in the marketplace of ideas will be met with unrelenting mockery.
I feel I’ve done nothing of the sort. I’m entirely supportive of engaging in the mutual pursuit of truth, but when my opposition first engages in bad faith arguments, deflections, fallacies, then snarky adolescent memes followed by personal attacks then you open the door to me responding however I wish. It’s not my fault you lack the capacity to discuss formally and maturely.
If you go back to the beginning you’ll find you engaged in these downward-spiraling antics first.
In other words you’re holding me to a higher standard then you hold yourself. Embrace some humility and learn from your mistakes.
Thoughts and prayers for my humility, which has sadly died in a tragic mass-shooting accident.