I understand the logic that not voting might give the presidency to Trump but its also a good way to expose the falacy of our “democracies”. The less participation there is the harder it gets to keep the lie.
Theres a reason why Australia made voting compulsory.
The less participation there is the harder it gets to keep the lie.
This is just wildly naive. The less participation the easier you are to manage. Why do you think the GOP goes so hard on voter suppression and gerrymandering?
Their voter suppression is meant to stop from voting a very specific and relative small group of people not comparable to what an organized sabotage of the elections would be.
Gerrymandering is meant to dilute the vote of those who are already voting in favour of one party and its an example of how fallacious your democracy is.
I already admitted that I might be wrong, but something must be done to change this and believing you can fix a rigged game by playing it, is also naive.
Oh no, the left didn’t vote! What a shame! Now we won’t have any tasty ballots to snack on. Oh well, I guess we’d better start drifting left and further away from the interests of the people who actually elected us. Gee, I was really hoping the people whose views fundamentally oppose our own were going to vote. Mr Trump, we’d better stop suppressing black people’s votes right away, cause the left isn’t voting and we think that’s bad.
Another clever solution, but where’s the log? I don’t see one there, and the trolley is too close for you to have time to go off to find one.
What even is the log in this scenario, another insurrection? Not voting isn’t throwing a log, it’s just not pulling the lever.
What makes you think the accelerationist position of “exposing the fallacy” would actually make anything better? It’s very possible, I’d argue probable, that it would just make a lasting fascist regime more likely. What reason do you have to believe that a more transparent lie would be enough to make people actual do anything different?
Personally, I don’t think that’s a gamble with very favorable odds.
What even is the log in this scenario, another insurrection? Not voting isn’t throwing a log, it’s just not pulling the lever.
As I see it, the lever is the choice being made, in this case dem. or rep., the tracks are the electoral system and the log is the third option they dont want us to give and have taught us it doesnt exist.
In a true democracy we should be able to say “we dont like options given, do better” but those voices are conveniently ignored.
What makes you think the accelerationist position of “exposing the fallacy” would actually make anything better?
The first step in demanding the true is to realize you’ve been lied to. If everyone is voting it must mean that they agree the system works because people dont usually waste time in tasks that they believe are fruitless. I believe people will realize something is wrong with their “democracy” when its minorities choosing for everyone else and start demanding true democracy.
Also, the fact that they, the rulling class, seems to be afraid of it. As I mentioned before, australia making vote compulsory when the numbers were geting “too low for comfort” is a good example.
Personally, I don’t think that’s a gamble with very favorable odds.
Its possible it could backfire, yes. And, as I said in another comment, right now wouldnt be the best time to do it. Vote, but be aware that the system you participate in is just mitigating the symptoms of a desease and not treating it. Pretending otherwise is not a good gamble either.
Actions must be taken to change it. An organized effort to sabotage the elections by not voting could be one option.
And you forget the fact that even if most people votes theres a chance trump will still win. Even if biden gets the popular vote, just like it happened in 2016. Who will you blame then?
The way these types of conversations can get so heated is an indicator that people is still not placing the blame where it should be. People need to be shown the truth, which is hard when our whole lives we’ve been “educated” to believe a lie, and again, I think electoral sabotage is a good attempt at that.
In any nation with first past the post elections, like the United States, Leftists have exactly one rational voting strategy:
Step 1. Identify the two front-runner parties, and determine which of the two is further left relative to the other.
Step 2. Vote for that party in every single election (don’t forget midterms and local elections). Encourage everyone you know to do the same.
Step 3. Once the (relative) left party has an overwhelming majority (over 2/3) and the relative right party becomes vanishingly irrelevant (under 1/3), then split the (relative) left party into its own relative left and right.
Step 4. Repeat steps 1-3 with these new front-runner parties.
Step 5. Iterate step 4 until your relative left party passes election reform such that elections are no longer susceptible to Duverger’s Law.
Certainly try to push for reform within the relative left party between elections and during primaries, but at the ballot box the above is the only rational strategy. Voting third party, or refusing to vote the lesser evil, is not a rational strategy.
What I fail to understand Is how will you split the left party (step 3).
Do citizens in the US can choose what candidates the parties push forward?
If not: Why would the left party propose leftier candidates? They know that as long as their guy is not as “bad” as the competition you will vote for them and they are “sponsored” by the same corporations which dont like leftist policies.
Theres no incentive for them to turn further left; Is it?
Voting third party splits the vote. Once over 2/3s of voters are voting for the left party, voters can comfortably vote for a more progressive party without worrying about vote splitting. For example, if Democrats consistently get 70% of the vote, progressive voters can rally behind a progressive party. It’s not that you’re actually splitting the Democratic party, you’re just splitting the voters between the Democratic and Progressive parties.
That kinda makes sense, but for the dems to consistently get 70 what needs to change is the political views of the voters, right? For that to happen they need to believe the dem party is actually the best option and for that to happen the dem party must lean way more left. But again; Why would they do that if you are already rewarding them for being “not as bad”.
I forgot to mention before that you are basing this strategy on another fallacy. “First past the post” means nothing when hillary won the popular vote in 2016 and still lost the presidency.
“First past the post” means nothing when hillary won the popular vote in 2016 and still lost the presidency.
The fact that the relevant electors are Electoral College members, and not the general population, doesn’t change FPTP.
Further, the Dems are unambiguously the better option. Them not being good enough doesn’t make than worse than Repubs. Expecting them to change is not a voting strategy. Running about it as “rewarding” them is counterproductive. What needs to change out is progressive turnout, Once we have the turnout then we can start talking about better alternatives to the Dems. Until then it’s a moot point.
Progressives refusing to settle for the lesser evil is why they don’t have 70% representation
Certainly try to push for reform within the relative left party between elections and during primaries
Democrats aren’t open to having these discussions. The moment people started criticizing Biden for opening more concentration camps, Democrats dug in their heels and became defensive, lashing out at anyone with valid criticism and calling us “Russian bots,” accusing us of secretly supporting Trump, and this behavior has continued since then, and it seems to emit from the majority of all centrist and conservative Democrats.
The idea that we can push for change is a nice thought, but it doesn’t work when they’re not open to valid criticism of a sitting president.
Even this pretty moderate post has been reported by liberals and other bad-faith actors who are not open to discussing anything to the left of Reagan.
Sure, but by focusing on that line, which was a nice afterthought ,you’re ignoring the rest of the comment, which was the functionally important part. Regardless of any other actions and considerations, it is imperative to vote in every election, and to vote for the further left of the two front-runner parties, which at the moment would be the Democrats.
Every other other action is, pragmatically, secondary to increasing Leftist voter turnout. Any action that discourages Leftist voter turnout (e.g. refusing to vote for the lesser evil on principle because it’s still evil) is counterproductive. Democrats don’t care about having discussions with progressives because progressives don’t show up to vote, and they know the ones that do know better than to split the vote.
If every progressive voted, and Democrats consistently won 70% of the vote, the Republican threat would disappear, and the Democrats would not longer be safe by virtue of Duverger’s Law. Then a Progressive party could meaningfully emerge, meaningfully threaten Democrats, and Democrats would have to actually have those discussions.
People have straight up gloated to me that something like 70% of voters support our fascist border policy and arming a genocidal state. What makes you so sure we can fix this by voting?
Also, I don’t buy the idea that right-wing liberals would listen to leftists if we vote. I vote in every election, but they still treat me like absolute trash. They love that people are suffering and that they can gloat that there’s no effective way to save them.
FFS look at the maniacal comments in this thread. And this is actually better than the norm.
If we can’t fix this by 100% voter turnout, then our ideals aren’t popular, and democracy has spoken.
What is your pragmatic alternative? What strategy is 1. Actionable and 2. Effective 3. Incompatible with the process I outlined above? Widespread change will be a function of multi-modal effort, there’s no reason not to commit to higher turnout while simultaneously pushing for change in other ways. Defeatist outlooks are what the opposition wants, don’t reward them.
I just don’t see what any of this has to do with correctly pointing out that our sitting president is complicit in genocide among other atrocities. Do you think we should only say nice things about him and that we should respect him no matter what? Because this is not gonna happen. I’m a bad person, but I’m not so bad that I’m willing to tolerate genocide or the victims of our manufactured border “crisis.” Fuck all of that completely.
The only reason I see any point in voting is if we can demand more of the president. Are you part of a cult? Because unquestionably following a leader and shielding him from all criticism on the grounds that someone worse might win is straight up creepy and cultlike.
We have more than two seconds, and what does this have to do with criticizing a sitting president? Explain. I’m not allowed to highlight the atrocities his administration commits?
Edit: You have to kill the person, and you aren’t allowed to complain about it either. One way is “murder the people” and the other choice is “murder the innocent person #Pride #BLM” – we’re not allowed to talk about how colossally shitty it was to establish this trolley system in the first place?
Not in the trolley scenario you don’t. But in the situation it represents, how do you, personally, plan to “burn the trolley and rip up the tracks” before November?
what does this have to do with criticizing a sitting president?
Fomenting electoral apathy in the conscientious portion of the population just before a close election empowers the candidate preferred by the non-conscientious portion of the population. I’m all for criticisms, but leftist infighting, and refusing to “big-tent” with neo-liberals in election years, only benefits the right.
The opposition learned how to play the game and move things incrementally towards their goals. Letting idealism obstruct pragmatism is only making things worse, even when your ideals are right. Play the game or lose.
So what you’re saying is we have a terrible undemocratic system that was founded on the ideals of oppression and genocide, and that there’s no hope of fixing it. Got it.
Never said that, but smugly refusing to participate because it’s flawed is not an effective path toward fixing it. Conservatives have been gutting civil liberties by patiently toeing the line and playing by the rules of the game to develop their position over decades. Progressives have been splitting vote (or just straight up not voting) because they let their ideals prevent them from compromising on winning strategies.
Ideals and principles are great guiding stars to aim toward, and I desperately hope to live to see fully automated luxury gay space communism, but refusing to vote for the lesser evil isn’t getting us any closer. It’s just bringing us closer to an actualfascist United States.
Who’s “smugly refusing” though? I’m bristling at the suggestion that a sitting president should be immune from criticism, especially one who is ACTIVELY supporting genocide!
an actual fascist United States.
I’ve got bad news for you about us. We’re already a fascist state. Yes, it can get worse, but just the existence of agencies like ICE and our entire fucked up history paints a grim picture of what we are.
So if you’re telling me my only choices are either a genocidal maniac or a slightly less genocidal maniac, then I’ll tell you we do not have a democracy. That is NOT a democracy that you’re describing. You admit this, right?
Supporting genocidal actions is not an acceptable tolerance.
It’s a hard line and if you people want to support someone that does something like that, no matter which side or on then we deserve whatever fucking comes to us.
Arm yourselves, and be ready, learn how to grow plants and how to hunt.
Between potatoes and greens and beans. You can survive for a while on a nutritious fucking diet even when shit starts gets scarce.
It’ll be hard, but we will make it.
I’m not even suggesting for prepper shit, just stuff that was common knowledge less than 100 years ago that we forgotten because of the society that we have now.
Hell, I own grow bags that I could hang out in an apartment window and grow stuff 20 feet off the ground with no balcony
Before he went to jump down my throat, I mean, no one really knows where their food comes from anymore or how to throw their own.
I am making no assertions other than that when I talk about the things that society has forgotten because of the way it is now
Yeah, my husband and I have talked about the idea of moving to rural Mexico. Not that things are great in that nation either, but it’s a warmer climate where my relatives live with lots of potential for growing food, keeping chickens, drawing fresh water, and being able to survive even if things go down. Maybe even get a group of people together to make it work.
Honestly, I’d not be sorry to see a nation like the US crumble, but I’d feel concerned for the people who would suffer and die as a result.
I don’t find a system that provides me with only two choices – one being a candidate who actively persecutes immigrants and Native people and denies people basic rights like housing and healthcare while sending arms to genocidal regimes, and the other being the same but also wanting to establish a theotratic autocracy – to fall within the acceptable range. I’d probably not listen to anyone who finds this situation remotely acceptable.
Lol okay, but this so-called “why should I vote” brigade is STILL not here. Sounds like a strawman to me, because zero 1 (one) users in this thread are saying not to vote.
Update: One user referenced not voting as a strategy to affect change, but then said that now is not the time for such a strategy
Very clever, how do you plan to do that in the 2 seconds before the trolley passes?
Throw a log at the tracks.
I understand the logic that not voting might give the presidency to Trump but its also a good way to expose the falacy of our “democracies”. The less participation there is the harder it gets to keep the lie.
Theres a reason why Australia made voting compulsory.
This is just wildly naive. The less participation the easier you are to manage. Why do you think the GOP goes so hard on voter suppression and gerrymandering?
Their voter suppression is meant to stop from voting a very specific and relative small group of people not comparable to what an organized sabotage of the elections would be.
Gerrymandering is meant to dilute the vote of those who are already voting in favour of one party and its an example of how fallacious your democracy is.
I already admitted that I might be wrong, but something must be done to change this and believing you can fix a rigged game by playing it, is also naive.
Conservatives in the DNC and GOP next year:
Another clever solution, but where’s the log? I don’t see one there, and the trolley is too close for you to have time to go off to find one.
What even is the log in this scenario, another insurrection? Not voting isn’t throwing a log, it’s just not pulling the lever.
What makes you think the accelerationist position of “exposing the fallacy” would actually make anything better? It’s very possible, I’d argue probable, that it would just make a lasting fascist regime more likely. What reason do you have to believe that a more transparent lie would be enough to make people actual do anything different?
Personally, I don’t think that’s a gamble with very favorable odds.
Fixed it
As I see it, the lever is the choice being made, in this case dem. or rep., the tracks are the electoral system and the log is the third option they dont want us to give and have taught us it doesnt exist.
In a true democracy we should be able to say “we dont like options given, do better” but those voices are conveniently ignored.
The first step in demanding the true is to realize you’ve been lied to. If everyone is voting it must mean that they agree the system works because people dont usually waste time in tasks that they believe are fruitless. I believe people will realize something is wrong with their “democracy” when its minorities choosing for everyone else and start demanding true democracy.
Also, the fact that they, the rulling class, seems to be afraid of it. As I mentioned before, australia making vote compulsory when the numbers were geting “too low for comfort” is a good example.
Its possible it could backfire, yes. And, as I said in another comment, right now wouldnt be the best time to do it. Vote, but be aware that the system you participate in is just mitigating the symptoms of a desease and not treating it. Pretending otherwise is not a good gamble either.
Actions must be taken to change it. An organized effort to sabotage the elections by not voting could be one option.
And you forget the fact that even if most people votes theres a chance trump will still win. Even if biden gets the popular vote, just like it happened in 2016. Who will you blame then?
The way these types of conversations can get so heated is an indicator that people is still not placing the blame where it should be. People need to be shown the truth, which is hard when our whole lives we’ve been “educated” to believe a lie, and again, I think electoral sabotage is a good attempt at that.
In any nation with first past the post elections, like the United States, Leftists have exactly one rational voting strategy:
Step 1. Identify the two front-runner parties, and determine which of the two is further left relative to the other.
Step 2. Vote for that party in every single election (don’t forget midterms and local elections). Encourage everyone you know to do the same.
Step 3. Once the (relative) left party has an overwhelming majority (over 2/3) and the relative right party becomes vanishingly irrelevant (under 1/3), then split the (relative) left party into its own relative left and right.
Step 4. Repeat steps 1-3 with these new front-runner parties.
Step 5. Iterate step 4 until your relative left party passes election reform such that elections are no longer susceptible to Duverger’s Law.
Certainly try to push for reform within the relative left party between elections and during primaries, but at the ballot box the above is the only rational strategy. Voting third party, or refusing to vote the lesser evil, is not a rational strategy.
What I fail to understand Is how will you split the left party (step 3).
Do citizens in the US can choose what candidates the parties push forward?
If not: Why would the left party propose leftier candidates? They know that as long as their guy is not as “bad” as the competition you will vote for them and they are “sponsored” by the same corporations which dont like leftist policies.
Theres no incentive for them to turn further left; Is it?
Voting third party splits the vote. Once over 2/3s of voters are voting for the left party, voters can comfortably vote for a more progressive party without worrying about vote splitting. For example, if Democrats consistently get 70% of the vote, progressive voters can rally behind a progressive party. It’s not that you’re actually splitting the Democratic party, you’re just splitting the voters between the Democratic and Progressive parties.
That kinda makes sense, but for the dems to consistently get 70 what needs to change is the political views of the voters, right? For that to happen they need to believe the dem party is actually the best option and for that to happen the dem party must lean way more left. But again; Why would they do that if you are already rewarding them for being “not as bad”.
I forgot to mention before that you are basing this strategy on another fallacy. “First past the post” means nothing when hillary won the popular vote in 2016 and still lost the presidency.
The fact that the relevant electors are Electoral College members, and not the general population, doesn’t change FPTP.
Further, the Dems are unambiguously the better option. Them not being good enough doesn’t make than worse than Repubs. Expecting them to change is not a voting strategy. Running about it as “rewarding” them is counterproductive. What needs to change out is progressive turnout, Once we have the turnout then we can start talking about better alternatives to the Dems. Until then it’s a moot point. Progressives refusing to settle for the lesser evil is why they don’t have 70% representation
Democrats aren’t open to having these discussions. The moment people started criticizing Biden for opening more concentration camps, Democrats dug in their heels and became defensive, lashing out at anyone with valid criticism and calling us “Russian bots,” accusing us of secretly supporting Trump, and this behavior has continued since then, and it seems to emit from the majority of all centrist and conservative Democrats.
The idea that we can push for change is a nice thought, but it doesn’t work when they’re not open to valid criticism of a sitting president.
Even this pretty moderate post has been reported by liberals and other bad-faith actors who are not open to discussing anything to the left of Reagan.
Sure, but by focusing on that line, which was a nice afterthought ,you’re ignoring the rest of the comment, which was the functionally important part. Regardless of any other actions and considerations, it is imperative to vote in every election, and to vote for the further left of the two front-runner parties, which at the moment would be the Democrats.
Every other other action is, pragmatically, secondary to increasing Leftist voter turnout. Any action that discourages Leftist voter turnout (e.g. refusing to vote for the lesser evil on principle because it’s still evil) is counterproductive. Democrats don’t care about having discussions with progressives because progressives don’t show up to vote, and they know the ones that do know better than to split the vote.
If every progressive voted, and Democrats consistently won 70% of the vote, the Republican threat would disappear, and the Democrats would not longer be safe by virtue of Duverger’s Law. Then a Progressive party could meaningfully emerge, meaningfully threaten Democrats, and Democrats would have to actually have those discussions.
People have straight up gloated to me that something like 70% of voters support our fascist border policy and arming a genocidal state. What makes you so sure we can fix this by voting?
Also, I don’t buy the idea that right-wing liberals would listen to leftists if we vote. I vote in every election, but they still treat me like absolute trash. They love that people are suffering and that they can gloat that there’s no effective way to save them.
FFS look at the maniacal comments in this thread. And this is actually better than the norm.
If we can’t fix this by 100% voter turnout, then our ideals aren’t popular, and democracy has spoken.
What is your pragmatic alternative? What strategy is 1. Actionable and 2. Effective 3. Incompatible with the process I outlined above? Widespread change will be a function of multi-modal effort, there’s no reason not to commit to higher turnout while simultaneously pushing for change in other ways. Defeatist outlooks are what the opposition wants, don’t reward them.
I just don’t see what any of this has to do with correctly pointing out that our sitting president is complicit in genocide among other atrocities. Do you think we should only say nice things about him and that we should respect him no matter what? Because this is not gonna happen. I’m a bad person, but I’m not so bad that I’m willing to tolerate genocide or the victims of our manufactured border “crisis.” Fuck all of that completely.
The only reason I see any point in voting is if we can demand more of the president. Are you part of a cult? Because unquestionably following a leader and shielding him from all criticism on the grounds that someone worse might win is straight up creepy and cultlike.
We have more than two seconds, and what does this have to do with criticizing a sitting president? Explain. I’m not allowed to highlight the atrocities his administration commits?
Edit: You have to kill the person, and you aren’t allowed to complain about it either. One way is “murder the people” and the other choice is “murder the innocent person #Pride #BLM” – we’re not allowed to talk about how colossally shitty it was to establish this trolley system in the first place?
Not in the trolley scenario you don’t. But in the situation it represents, how do you, personally, plan to “burn the trolley and rip up the tracks” before November?
Fomenting electoral apathy in the conscientious portion of the population just before a close election empowers the candidate preferred by the non-conscientious portion of the population. I’m all for criticisms, but leftist infighting, and refusing to “big-tent” with neo-liberals in election years, only benefits the right.
The opposition learned how to play the game and move things incrementally towards their goals. Letting idealism obstruct pragmatism is only making things worse, even when your ideals are right. Play the game or lose.
So what you’re saying is we have a terrible undemocratic system that was founded on the ideals of oppression and genocide, and that there’s no hope of fixing it. Got it.
Fuck the fascist United States.
Never said that, but smugly refusing to participate because it’s flawed is not an effective path toward fixing it. Conservatives have been gutting civil liberties by patiently toeing the line and playing by the rules of the game to develop their position over decades. Progressives have been splitting vote (or just straight up not voting) because they let their ideals prevent them from compromising on winning strategies.
Ideals and principles are great guiding stars to aim toward, and I desperately hope to live to see fully automated luxury gay space communism, but refusing to vote for the lesser evil isn’t getting us any closer. It’s just bringing us closer to an actual fascist United States.
Who’s “smugly refusing” though? I’m bristling at the suggestion that a sitting president should be immune from criticism, especially one who is ACTIVELY supporting genocide!
I’ve got bad news for you about us. We’re already a fascist state. Yes, it can get worse, but just the existence of agencies like ICE and our entire fucked up history paints a grim picture of what we are.
So if you’re telling me my only choices are either a genocidal maniac or a slightly less genocidal maniac, then I’ll tell you we do not have a democracy. That is NOT a democracy that you’re describing. You admit this, right?
Only incredibly privileged or naive people are able to view this system as ‘flawed’. It works perfectly.
Every system is flawed. Some flaws are within acceptable tolerances. “Acceptable” is a largely subjective measure.
Supporting genocidal actions is not an acceptable tolerance.
It’s a hard line and if you people want to support someone that does something like that, no matter which side or on then we deserve whatever fucking comes to us.
Arm yourselves, and be ready, learn how to grow plants and how to hunt.
Between potatoes and greens and beans. You can survive for a while on a nutritious fucking diet even when shit starts gets scarce.
It’ll be hard, but we will make it.
I’m not even suggesting for prepper shit, just stuff that was common knowledge less than 100 years ago that we forgotten because of the society that we have now.
Hell, I own grow bags that I could hang out in an apartment window and grow stuff 20 feet off the ground with no balcony
Before he went to jump down my throat, I mean, no one really knows where their food comes from anymore or how to throw their own.
I am making no assertions other than that when I talk about the things that society has forgotten because of the way it is now
Yeah, my husband and I have talked about the idea of moving to rural Mexico. Not that things are great in that nation either, but it’s a warmer climate where my relatives live with lots of potential for growing food, keeping chickens, drawing fresh water, and being able to survive even if things go down. Maybe even get a group of people together to make it work.
Honestly, I’d not be sorry to see a nation like the US crumble, but I’d feel concerned for the people who would suffer and die as a result.
I don’t find a system that provides me with only two choices – one being a candidate who actively persecutes immigrants and Native people and denies people basic rights like housing and healthcare while sending arms to genocidal regimes, and the other being the same but also wanting to establish a theotratic autocracy – to fall within the acceptable range. I’d probably not listen to anyone who finds this situation remotely acceptable.
The “why should I vote” brigade are just making excuses for their laziness. Slacktivism is not a benefit to society like they think.
Show me where they are in this thread. They’re not here.
That sounds like someone talking to the police.
Lol okay, but this so-called “why should I vote” brigade is STILL not here. Sounds like a strawman to me, because
zero1 (one) users in this thread are saying not to vote.Update: One user referenced not voting as a strategy to affect change, but then said that now is not the time for such a strategy