Men don’t want to be branded ‘creepy’ and women have constantly stated they want to be left alone. Men listened.
Man vs bear debate sealed the deal for a ton of guys
It made me decide the world would be a better place without us. What right do we have to exist if we make 50% of the world so frightened just by existing?
I have every fucking right to exist.
What the fuck kind of mentality is that?
Even if true and you’re serious- it’s irrelevant anyway. You’re still a person and it’s your fundamental human right to exist.
Don’t ever let anyone tell you otherwise. Either we humans all get along together, or there shouldn’t be any humans.
What other conclusions is there? It’s better just to kill yourself on the inside and go along with the man vs bear crowd because the only other choice seems to be a nazi. It doesn’t mater what kind of person you are when your entire gender is considered dangerous.
Don’t let either horde of morons on the internet dictate what you believe and why.
I’m still a leftist and haven’t stopped being one just because dumb motherfuckers and inflammatory rhetoric exist.
This has made me wildly unpopular on places like Lemmy etc. but idgaf because I know my reasoning is sound and can back it up, so challenges to my views that are welcome that don’t employ valid reasoning are discarded. I live my life to my principles and idc about being agreeable or agreed with anymore.
and women have constantly stated they want to be left alone.
I haven’t seen this in the real world at all. lmao
Now now. Don’t blame women.
Yeah it’s not women per se, though most guys have had bad experiences. It’s also bad economics, loss of third spaces, loss of communities, excess screens, and the shifting cultural expectations that follow from these material changes.
It is hard to create real human intimacy when you interact with people primarily through profiles and media.
So much this. Between the loss of local community and third spaces, society is taking a beating.
Disclaimer: I’m not 18-25.
I have a ton of women friends (more than men ATM) and have solid evidence that I am a significantly attractive man. I’m also bi so my options are a tad more broad than average.
Even with this I can say that dating is unpleasant and I have never asked for one and barely do them (women are rarely bold enough to be the initiator). It feels like a socially awkward job interview where I have to spend money I don’t have and I fucking hate job interviews.
Admittedly, I also am autistic, socially anxious, and sexually repressed (American sex culture sucks).
Admittedly, I also am autistic, socially anxious, and sexually repressed
Same here. That’s the 21st century everyman.
I am just a regular 62 year old dude and I have not had a date in 12 years and the one I had 12 years ago was a fucking nightmare. I do not miss it.
Admittedly, I also am autistic, socially anxious,
Which I think explains a LOT of Lemmy users. Even more so than Reddit users.
45% of men 18 to 25 have never asked out a woman in person
I can’t speak for the whole 45% but some of us have heard stories from women about how that other 55% can behave. I think I’d rather wait for a lady to (never) ask me out then put someone in the position of thinking “Oh, is he gonna take it bad if I say no?”
This is it. I feel like I am inflicting myself on women. That I am a problem for them simply for existing. Why would I do something like that to someone if its as bad as we are always being told?
This is it. I feel like I am inflicting myself on women. That I am a problem for them simply for existing.
And that attitude and thought process is exactly why you would have a hard time dating. Don’t think like that, friend.
Get out and ask some people. Plenty of women like it as long as you’re polite
“Polite” implies that if you’re agreeable and friendly women will understand that you’re interested in them and not just being agreeable and friendly.
I think part of the problem is that what we’re all really after is fucking, which isn’t polite at all. Being polite about it just makes you look weak and ineffective at the thing that we all say we want but can’t mention.
If any mention of sex by a man is considered inappropriate, how is a man supposed to negotiate sex?
This is a big reason why I’m engaged: We got the impolite part out of the way first.
The “sex is impolite” thing… I think that’s a lot bigger than a lot of people give credit. I grew up in a non-denominational Christian house in the deep South. The only sex education I got was abstinence only, if you have sex with someone it’s basically the same as having sex with every person that person has ever had sex with. Your penis will fall off, her vagina will fall off, and you’ll have 37 babies.
Obviously, on an intellectual level, I’ve rejected all of that. Sex is fine and normal, having multiple partners throughout your life is normal. Your penis and her vagina will be fine, as long as you’re careful. No kids if you’re careful.
Despite this, for my entire life, sex has just been a thing that you don’t talk about. You don’t ask for. You’re not a friend if you want sex, you’re a pest. But also, you can’t want sex from someone you’ve just met, then you’re a creep and a pervert. You have to be their friend first, build a relationship and then you can want sex, but remember - you’re not a friend if you want sex, so you’re just living a lie to get sex. It’s a vicious catch 22. One of the biggest driving factors in all animals - sex - and we’ve moralized it so that we both cannot seek it and must obtain it.
I’ve got a fair few female friends. Some of them I would not mind having a deeper relationship with. But there’s always the struggle. Am I just being nice to get with her? Well, I can’t do that - I’d feel like a horrible person. So let’s just be friends and ignore the feelings for too long. Let’s let her believe we’re just friends, nothing more, until I can’t ignore it, confess feelings, and - shocker - that’s not a recipe for a relationship.
We’re all products of our environment. I can recognize a lot of the factors that have led me to having the mentality that I do. Unfortunately, the environments for so many of us are just not good ones. It feels like every major force in our lives is pushing us towards isolation. The problem isn’t men, isn’t women, it’s all just fucked. The whole thing needs an overhaul.
Thanks for this because it is exactly what I’m talking about. I wasn’t raised in a Christian house, but anything that was even vaguely titillating was considered obscene. When your mom angrily throws out a Victoria’s Secret catalog calling it “disgusting” how are you supposed to feel about liking the pictures?
If someone thinks their physical attraction is disgusting, perverse, or annoying how are they supposed to negotiate a relationship?
And unfortunately, one of the only places that are consistently telling young men they AREN’T disgusting, perverse and annoying is the same place that actively makes men into annoying, perverse, disgusting people. For a lot of young men, the only consistent positive reinforcement they receive is from Tate et al. The only ones teaching men (poorly, but still) how to navigate these interpersonal relationships are the ones turning them into pests.
None of this is the individual woman’s fault. None of this is the individual man’s fault. It’s a societal failing, and the only way we’re going to fix it is as a society. Men’s problems are women’s problems, and women’s problems are men’s problems. We all shape the world we share, and we all have a duty to shape it into a better one, for everyone.
Until you approach another wrong one and you get another lecture for saying hi
This shit is actually happening
So walk away from them, or handle it gracefully somehow. It’s the same as trying to make a friend. Doesn’t everyone make friends from time to time?
Interest + effort = relationship of any kind. Find the shared interest, make a little bit of effort… or don’t and the math doesn’t work. If romance doesn’t come, you’ve made a friend.
Enough negative experiences reinforce and define behavior.
This is true for any being with a nervous system.
IDK why you think every individual magically changing is something realistic.
If every individual you approach gives you a lecture you might want to check out not being around those people. Try something different.
I’ve never, ever gotten a lecture. I’ve been married for about four years, but before the pandemic I picked up 4 women in a year that led to relationships of months before I ended them when I realized there wasn’t enough there to keep me interested. Don’t get me wrong, i’ve been dumped plenty and rejected plenty. I just learned to move on from the rejection.
It’s like job hunting, it’s a numbers game and every time you try you have a chance. Every time you don’t try nothing changes.
I just can’t imagine being lectured just by approaching someone and saying hi, asking them a question that is pertinent to the scenario, and giving them a chance to speak.
You haven’t tried dating GenZ women then.
They specifically tell you not to approach women in public.
And you know good and well that asking someone on a date is nowhere close to saying hi. Stop lying to yourself to feel right it’s embarrassing XD
If you’re approaching strangers and asking them for a date and you aren’t an adonis, wealthy or otherwise instantly recognizable in a positive way, you’re gonna get some real negative responses. No one wants some rando just asking them out, but this is not new, this is why if you go to a bar you have a wing man - being solo looks creepy.
It’s true though that I wouldn’t have dated women who are 28 or younger (seems to be the oldest of gen Z.) I’m 40. Even though i’m of another generation it’s basically been a 10% chance or less to approach someone and ask them out… but again if you don’t try it never happens. Most people are in a relationship ALL the time… the best relationships i’ve found have been by making friends first in real world circumstances (board game meetups, parties, work functions/events, hiking meetups, running meetups… you name it…) and then being friendly and literally making friends with people. If you click with someone you can literally feel it, and if you like them enough then after you’re already at least friendly acquaintances you ask them to something.
If you can’t ever make friends at a meetup or event, especially one that invites strangers and often has newcomers, the problem is you.
it’s just that you’re fragile and a disgrace. it’s revolting. the fascists are taking over. grow some confidence. we need heroes, not insecure little boys. you know what will get you laid real quick? bashin the fash.
Yes, fragility is disgracefvll veakness. To defeat the enemy ze men mvst be strong, zey mvst be heroes, zey must have vill to seize vhat zey vant. It vill to pover zat vill tvrn little boys into strong men. Zis is antifascism.
Enough negative experiences reinforce and define behavior.
Unless you don’t let them.
IDK why you think every individual magically changing is something realistic.
To be honest, it doesn’t sound like you want to change. You are so resistant to it.
and you get another lecture for saying hi
I’ve never ever had that happen. And I’m old enough to have fucked your grandma when she was still young and cute.
I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I just don’t think it’s nearly as common as Lemmy likes to believe.
My personal experience trumps your personal experience!
This is the problem. We’re all so keen to talk, and not to listen. You’re old enough to have fucked dude’s Grandma? Congratulations you lived in a different world.
Congratulations you lived in a different world.
And I’m still in this world. Dude I still date. I’m only in my 50’s. I’m not even as old as Brad Pitt or Tom Cruise.
Women don’t want to be approached in public.
Men learn this quickly.
Also that speed dating stat is totally a lie, every dating event is a sausage fest.
Women don’t want to be approached in public.
I think the problem is that men don’t want to be approached in public. Or in private, for that matter. Half the joke of this is how antisocial, short-tempered, and easily discouraged men are.
Please, approach me in public. I’ll be flattered even if you’re not my type and will treat you with the utmost respect. It happened in the past.
Honestly, I get it’s a green text, but this is pretty easily explained. First off: dating is fucking expensive, and unfortunately standard gender roles means the dude foots the bill most of the time. Yes times are changing, but that’s still pretty standard. Pair that with the fact that dudes usually have to make the first move (again, old gender standards) and the fact that social media adds another layer of risk of being ridiculed or making someone viral because they were ‘crimge’ or ‘gave the girl the ick’ and it’s a pretty stacked deck. Hell, point one is such a strong weigh in that it’s enough to explain all of it. People are more broke than ever, and if dating by default involves going out, well guess that date isn’t going to happen.
I went out on a first date with this woman recently and we just split the bill 50/50. It was a refreshing change of scenery. I think that should be standard so that nobody has any expectations on either side. As time goes on you can figure out how to allocate cash flow but first dates should never be 100% on one gender, unless one of them are rich (in my opinion at least.)
I recently ended a 6 year relationship. I’m not going to settle down with anyone again unless they have their own stuff going on like a career and goals. I think a lot of women expect men to manage all the finances, set goals, plan vacations and provide stability but they don’t want to do the traditional gender role stuff like cooking and cleaning or making a home. So what’s the point? Why make someone else’s life easier if they don’t do the same for you? had a son young(I was 19 when I had him) and he’s 11 now, so it’s not like I’m dreaming of starting a family. Most women bring nothing to the table. And if you’re lucky enough like me to have a good income, house, car, etc… you realize a lot of things are easier living alone.
Women want the princess treatment but don’t know how to act like a princess. Beyond that, sex isn’t all it’s hyped up to be. I know I sound like a redpill incel but dating shouldn’t be a priority for anyone. What’s the rush? Don’t fall for the first thing you see, make sure they’re worth it first.
I get there’s a bit of biterness here, but speaking as an older millennial this was my experience as well. Feminism created a weird gap of women becoming strong and independent, but with some meant ‘im not going to do traditional fem, but expect you to do traditional man’ with no compromise. I ended up finding a wonderful woman and we both split everything, but it took me 20 years.
Yeah, probably haven’t met the right one and all that. For now, no company is better than bad company
What’s the rush?
I would guess the rush is that you would have someone to split your crippling living expenses with.
That’s not a good reason to share a bed with someone
If you decide to date again, you should consider dating liberal women. The only women I have known who are like you describe are conservative(and I have met one or two who expect the princess treatment and then don’t deliver on the prince treatment!). I know conservative men who expect traditional roles, and I know conservative men who expect to split the bills and say they’ll split the housework but then the woman ends up doing all the housework anyway. The women in that situation end up feeling like you: if I’m doing the housework AND working, this is easier on my own!
In my liberal circles things seem to be a bit more evenly split, and both partners are often more independent.
It seems like you’re happy on your own though, so you’re doing the right thing by removing yourself from the dating pool! Maybe you’ll find someone independent who will be a good match naturally, but I can’t imagine a woman would want to work and split the housework with someone who has your attitude (“most women are bad and not worth having around”) so you might need to change that if you do decide to get back into dating. I can’t connect on what you mean on sex not being the best thing in the world and the literal purpose of life, but I do know my husband felt like you on that front before he met me. He thought people were just exaggerating on how good it is. Maybe, like him, you just haven’t met the right match there either? It’s not like I’m even that good in bed, if anything I’m a bit of a selfish lover. It’s just that we’re a good fit together. Good luck, man. I hope you find the right fit and realize men and women are equally selfish and equally selfless.
Re: “sex isn’t all it’s hyped up to be.” Sex with someone you love is the best thing.
Have you actually tried taking unrepentant time off, where you have no work or social obligations, and grabbing unhealthy snacks and drinks, curling up with a good game, and zoning out of reality for hours or days at a time?
Sex is nice and all, and we’re hard wired to like it more than most activities, but it does not hold a single candle to unrepentant free time when you’re not used to said free time.
Have you actually tried taking unrepentant time off, where you have no work or social obligations, and grabbing unhealthy snacks and drinks, curling up with a good game, and zoning out of reality for hours or days at a time?
Cosplaying as a free human? Yeah I would love to pretend for a little while and forget the shit planet I was forced to exist on.
What a crazy way to say you’ve never had sex.
I’ve not found loving someone to help with the quality of the sex all that much. Maybe they just didn’t love me back or something. The crazy one was always great and was the only one who wanted it as often as I did but the rest of that relationship was a mess.
The crazy one was always great and was the only one who wanted it as often as I did but the rest of that relationship was a mess.
I’ve disagree with most of the posts in this thread. But I gotta say, this stereotype is true in my experience. I have dated a lot of crazy women, and mostly because even the everything else with them is a crazy fucked up mess, the sex is always amazing. The best sex I’ve ever had was with the crazy girls who were overly dramatic, and just always made shitty choices (like sleeping with me! haha)
I say this as someone who is in a kinda serious relationship now (she wants to get married, I’m not quite there yet). Love her lots, sex is great, but man, nothing matches the absolute insanity filthy sex that I had with the crazy girls. It’s something about that just not giving a fuck what they think or lack of respect, or something… But no lie, I kinda don’t wanna get married because don’t wanna give that all up just yet.
Good sex is honestly a toss up, I’ve had great sex in horrible relationships and bad sex in great relationships. I understand being in love with someone enhances it but love is a feeling which is impossible to sustain permanently
Sex with someone you love is the best thing.
It is! But sex with someone ya don’t love is pretty awesome too!
Agreed. Cost of living and wealth inequality are getting so bad it’s breaking society. We see it everywhere and it’s weird to prioritize non economic explanations.
Although hetero dating is just total bs, speaking as a queer gal. All that old cruft is rotten and it’s gotta go
Yet again Capitalism is the issue
Is there any problem that wouldn’t be fixed with wealth redistribution?
The inequitable amount of influence the 1% gets from owning the means of production. Given time this will erode whatever wealth distribution scheme you have in place.
See the minimum wage for an example.
reading this thread I’m glad I’m a removed in a relationship. my spouse is the best. i got so fucking lucky.
there’s a massive epidemic of loneliness out there. the loss of the free/cheap third spaces, lockdowns, and social media have made a fucking shitstorm. I’m scared for the generations below me just starting to enter the workforce. so many kids just unable to function properly.
i can’t solve it. but I’ve been putting my devices down more and (trying) to get out more. get more sunlight and fresh air, even if i just sit outside and watch the ducks. it’s hard out there. give yourself a break, okay? eat a snack and take a walk.
This thread is an example of why men aren’t dating.
“I’ve had painful lived experiences and faced unbalanced and unfair expectations, so I’ve decided dating isn’t worth my time right now”
“You’re an incel”
It doesn’t really matter what you say, it’s the fact that you said it as a man that will garner disrespect from some regardless.
It’s like us men are immune to trauma and if we bring up any valid concerns or criticism, it’s either we’re incels or homosexual.
Our society and the double standards we place on ourselves as men or women is absolutely ridiculous.
It’s incel to think you believe you’re the shit and why isn’t any woman coming to you. That’s incel thought.
Dealing with depression, lack of job opportunities, isolation among men as society pushes us to keep our emotions on the backburner, etc. aren’t incels, it’s whats happening with men right now. Men have little to no support group compared to women and for that, I am envious.
As a dad:
I get weird looks when I’m with my child, am told “doing daddy duty huh” when I’m more involved than his mother, am expected to be stoic, can’t sit at the bench to waych my child play as some other individual will think I’m a creep as I’m a single dad, can’t wear dope/unique patterns due to others perception of it being “flamboyant” while women will compliment other women for what they got on.
Toxic masculinity is intertwined with incels and it’s absolutely rampant in society.
stop caring about what other people think. hard to do sometimes but worth it. wear the bright colors, watch your kids, stand up for yourself and take up your space. fuck haters and people who live in the worried thoughts inside their head.
Oh for sure I stopped caring. I wear my crocs with an unique pattern nearly everywhere I go as an example. Just airing grievances and observations
Love your attitude. I won’t forgive your crocs. We gotta draw a line somewhere, man…
Well said!
Become trans I guess, idk. Society is only getting to be worse.
“idk how to respond…fuck it cut your dick off.” Lol
Funny but accurate.
Society is only getting to be worse.
Not it’s not. Just stop doomscrolling on Lemmy all day. Actually things are pretty awesome out here in the real world!
You are kidding me, right? You know I can see the prices skyrocket, right? I can see them live.
America has gone AWOL and is selling random people to slave camps.
Russia is winning in Ukraine thanks to America’s betrayal, and European cowardice.
Europe is dumping all of it’s cash into weapons, and being veto-blocked by hungary. That’s less money going to citizens.
We might have to deal with a USA/RUSSIA alliance againast the world.
And AI is getting close to being able to improve itself, leading to the singularity replacing us all.
America has gone AWOL and is selling random people to slave camps.
What?! lol no. Just no.
And AI is getting close to being able to improve itself, leading to the singularity replacing us all.
No.
Ah, too deep into fox news to see? Paying El Salvador to fill jails with.
Don’t you understand? Progress does not care about your ideology, and it is not always good.
Nothing ever happens.
We’ll be fine. I promise.
i’d say incel is when you blame women as a group… basically misogyny….
i guess, i’ve seen incels blame society as a whole… and have a few valid observations mixed in with a bunch of insane beliefs. i suppose any good cult has that.
but, if you say dating culture sucks and you’re not playing the game, that’s not incel but is disenfranchised… or disgruntled….
if you say society has programmed you to need a barbie doll girlfriend/servant and you deserve it and hate everyone, refuse to work on yourself at all, and bitterly polish your gun, that’s incel….
it’s possible to not fit in mainstream society without being completely antisocial…
toxic masculinity/machismo is a thing, and it’s reinforced by everyone who’s been indoctrinated… that doesn’t mean every individual is a horrible piece of shit, but it also doesn’t mean you should try to emulate some macho ideal to compete.the guy who gets all the interest at the bar is probably not going to be very attractive at the open mic or event feeding homeless people or whatever… everyone is an “alpha” in different situations, human groups overlap, and incel is a direct result of autistic people thinking PUA culture is the base level of society and human interaction….
The common denominator in all of this is the fucking internet.
We didn’t have the internet to give us opinions about men and women before. Most relationships were formed with existing social circles and friend groups. People hung out and had fun and talked to each other until they started getting frisky and then we had babies.
Now when someone wants to go get it on, they start reading the internet stories and arguments and roleplay issues, and they get tense and worried and then have no idea what to do or say when they’re in the same room with a potential partner.
We HAVE to kill off the reliance on the internet if we want people to start liking each other again, which I don’t know how to do since we’re only getting more and more locked-in to our isolated routines.
I’m married to a tinder girl now so say what you want about that but for me, it was fear of further social ostracization. I always struggled to fit in, in grade school because I was asian in a sea of white kids. Some kids were literally afraid to touch the “chinese boy” (i was korean but try telling that to rabid white elementary and middle school kids looking for any reason to other anyone). I became a huge people pleaser and tried not to stick out for any reason. I had also seen how the “popular” kids treated any of the geeks who tried to shoot their shot and I didn’t want to fuck up any of the social capital I thought I had. It obviously got better in late high school as kids grew up but the damage was done. I had a few girlfriends in high school and college but they mostly came after me or we kind of just found ourselves getting close so there wasn’t any formal “asking out” type of stuff. Either way I probably blew a lot of romantic opportunities but it is what it is.
I got a boy due in June so hopefully I can instill the confidence in him that I didn’t have.
tinder girl
You mean you met her on tinder. What makes her a tinder girl and not you a tinder girl?
Edit meant boy
Obviously he means she is dry and flammable, thus is great for starting fires.
My wife is also a wooden mannequin.
His cock
Thanks for clearing that up
So many comments echoing “women told us to stop approaching us, so we did!”
I mean no offense, truly, but you missed the point if that’s the message you took. It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman” it was, “if you shoot your shot and she’s not interested, move on and don’t make it weird. If she is at work, be very careful as customer service does not equal flirting.” Yes, there are some grey areas (not sure even the best gentleman could slide up to a woman alone in a parking lot and not freak her out), but some of you are kicking up the board without even moving a piece. Stop pushing the narrative that only attractive men can speak to women. Not only are you assuming you’re not attractive by saying that (which cannot be good for your confidence) , you’re reducing women’s feelings and concerns as being blindly shallow and unwarranted.
The world is not full of only beautiful people, yet people still live and love. Not to dismiss the difficulties (as an uggo myself, I get it), but you can get out there, I know you can.
It wasn’t “Do not, under any circumstances, speak to a woman”
Actually, as explained to me by a woman, it was exactly that.
This was well after I had married, somewhere in my fifth decade, so I was off that particular playing field for quite some time by that point. But on a lark I had asked a feminist what this “leave women alone” refrain meant. And some of it made perfect sense: don’t hit up cashiers or anyone doing their jobs, they’re just being nice and friendly because they are being paid to be polite.
But it also meant don’t approach women when they’re shopping for groceries, as they’re probably tired from work and just want to go home. Don’t approach women on public transportation, as they’re just trying to get home and don’t want to be accosted in a cramped public venue. Don’t approach women when they’re out with friends, because they are with friends and don’t want to be cleaved off like how a predator isolates a member of a herd.
This went on and on, to some pretty ridiculous lengths. Whereupon I asked, “how is any man supposed to do an unsolicited approach to chat up a woman?”, to which she said - and no, not kidding at all - “They shouldn’t. Any man who we’re interested in will understand when we’re interested in them.”
Like… telepathy.
Literal
f**king
telepathy.Sure as shit, this is what a woman said to me.
Most men get absolutely zero life experience in decoding super-subtle hints, and now they’re supposed to miraculously become an expert in navigating a potentially life-destroying minefield, where the only two outcomes is magically getting it right, or risking a non-trivial probability of incarceration and a criminal record when they (invariably) get it wrong?
No wonder so many men are saying “thanks, but no thanks.” That the juice - the outcome - is just no longer worth the squeeze - all the effort and risk that is shouldered. I don’t blame them in the least. They’re the smart ones.
And those who are slightly less smart are at least asking the $10,000 question: why aren’t women making the first approach? I mean, isn’t that what this whole “equality of the sexes” shtick was all about? Why don’t women put their money where their mouths are, and ask MEN out, for a change? Because I can guarantee that while any normal woman will experience a certain level of rejection, it will still be several orders of magnitude less than what a similarly-normal man experiences.
I have a feeling this is a very american thing. Random encounters with the other sex were the norm in Germany (at least before tinder and the likes, no idea how it’s nowadays). Being confident got you a long way. Not always, mind you. But often enough. Most women actually like being spoken to, as long as it’s a friendly encounter. I believe it might be different in America because everyone there is trying to one up each other (often resulting in loud and annoying behavior). I wouldn’t want to be chatted up by the cliche american guy either.
Well I’m not American and it felt pretty spot on, so idk.
sure thing, incel
sure thing, incel
Tell me you know nothing about that word without saying you are ignorant AF about that word, and are only throwing it around as a weapon in an attempt to publicly shame me into being quiet.
So: nice ad hominem. You clearly have absolutely nothing of substance in which to counter the message, so instead you attack the speaker.
Truly an effective way of winning arguments! /s
I would honestly say your friend misunderstood the message as well if that was her takeaway.
I would honestly say your friend misunderstood the message as well if that was her takeaway.
Unlikely - she was and still is a professor teaching women’s studies at the local university. Published, too. She’s hardly a nobody.
I had a physics professor tell me about free energy. Having a degree is not 100% effective in curing stupid.
I was with you (to a degree)until:
they’re supposed to miraculously become an expert in navigating a potentially life-destroying minefield, where the only two outcomes is magically getting it right, or risking a non-trivial probability of incarceration and a criminal record when they (invariably) get it wrong?
This is some nonsense. The worst the man will get (barring some VERY unacceptable behavior on his part) is yelled at by an angry (and probably shitty, if all the man did was politely approach at even a remotely reasonable time) woman. Which, turns out, is something women deal with from shitty men fairly regularly. It turns out, when you are interacting with strangers out in public, there is a small chance you are going to interact with an asshole. That doesn’t mean you should be a hermit, that means you met an asshole. And if everyone you meet is an asshole… you’re probably the asshole.
But nobody is going to jail or having life-shattering consequences for saying hello to a woman they don’t know.
THAT BEING SAID, if we, as men, are regularly told that approaching a woman in public is uncomfortable, unpleasant, or downright scary for women, decent men won’t want to approach women in order to avoid making them uncomfortable.
My personal experience has been to the contrary, and have struck up conversations with a number of women I didn’t know in public, and never had a particularly bad experience. Maybe I am generally non-threatening, or maybe I have better social skills than some, but if all a person who rarely interacts with women hears is that initiating any sort of contact is unpleasant to the woman they talk to, I can’t imagine they’d be inclined to strike up a conversation. And if they do make women uncomfortable (due to poor social skills from… not regularly interacting with women), it only reinforces that belief.
What’s the answer? I don’t know. But it feels like making men who care about the feelings of women uncomfortable with approaching them does nothing but leave the ones who don’t care. I think the message needs to change.
Why does it have to be men doing the asking? Maybe it’s the 'tism talking but I tend to be very onboard for the whole equity and equality stuff especially in a relationship. I have never understood why people feel so strongly about gendered roles or activities. Despite being functional in pretty much all traditionally gendered skills (in both directions), I haven’t really ever encountered someone that takes it as seriously.
Of the women I have dated that have been the most vocal about equity and DEI when I point out that they tend to all back to traditional gender roles when it’s to their advantage they have all essentially ended up saying that it is just their personal preference. Well no shit. I’m sure there are plenty of men who would prefer to be able to have all of the housework done by their partner, or billionaires that don’t want to give up any of their money even if they talk about wealth inequality. Just because it’s a preference doesn’t mean it’s OK.
Men don’t have to be the ones asking, but I was responding to the idea that men can’t approach women by default. Either gender can shoot their shot.
And those women can have a preference for a more “traditional” role, it just means they need to be aware that not every guy they meet is going to be cool with that and that may mean making a choice down the line. The idea is that two people are in a relationship that works for them and everyone is safe and respected. So, yes, it’s okay for people to have that preference. The issue is forcing your preference to be the standard.
The issue with the women I have met in my example is that they only want the advantages of the traditional without the negatives. They want the emotional and labor and physical chores to be shared equally, but they don’t want to be responsible for initiating or pursuing. Nor do they have any interest in learning how to do basic things with tools and would rather their partner deal with it.
If we aren’t going to give a misogynist a pass because they don’t want to give up what they have for equality because that’s just his preference, then I don’t think it’s fair to give anyone else a pass when applying the same logic.
I’m 41 now but I haven’t gone on a date-date in 3 years or so. The TL;DR online dating is absolutely not worth participating in. Neither is speed dating, and people are isolating more and more.
I’m not wildly attractive but I’m not unattractive either. I’m probably like a 6 or a 7. I think I’m interesting and can hold a reasonable conversation. I’m intelligent. I’ve been told I’m funny (sometimes). I am a bit clumsy sometimes though. I’ve been in two long term (3+ years) relationships in my life but one of those relationships ended due to alcohol (we mutually sucked at the time), and the other due to financial reasons. Both hurt pretty deep when they ended and I didn’t date for a couple years after either of those.
In the time that I wasn’t feeling some form of loss from relationships that meant something, I tried online dating. I tried OkCupid, Bumble, PlentyOfFish, some bullshit regarding a bagel, Tinder, match.com, etc. I probably tried any of them that were active at the time. Not once did it ever amount to a relationship, in probably 15 years of using those sites off and on. I’ve unquestionably had more bad experiences than good. 9 out of 10 dates are bad. 1 ouf of 10 are ok. The worst time I recall was when a woman drugged me after our date. Another bad time I can recall, my date showed up on drugs or drunk or just incredibly stupid or something. She racked up a $110 bar tab during our 30 minute meet and greet and dipped out without saying anything at all or paying the bill. I was once catfished (is it catfishing when it’s just straight up someone else’s picture, or does it have to be your own picture doctored up / photoshopped to be considered catfishing?) by a co-worker on Bumble. I’ve been stood up for a first date at three or four times. I’ve been cancelled on an hour or two before a date at least 15 times.
The last time I had an online date, everything seemed to be going fine, we had a drink at the first bar, established that we seemingly got along, went on a walk around downtown, check out a show and then all of a sudden I’m being told about a sex kit that she purchased from a vending machine while I was in the bathroom that she wants to try out. I thought she was pretty cool before that. I wasn’t 100% sure if I was attracted to her, but I knew we at least got along on a person-to-person level. Telling me about a sex kit like that on the first date was a “eh, hard pass” for me. Women have either been fully uninterested in me; or so interested in me that I find it repulsive.
Speed dating is also, completely shit; and it’s a scam. The first time I tried speed dating, it was some website where you pick your city, your age range, and then what event you’d want to attend based on your other parameters. They take your money, and then send you an email a day before the event saying the event is cancelled because they couldn’t get enough people, but you cannot have a refund either. Then you attempt to re-schedule and it gets cancelled a second time for the same reason, then a third. Finally - you attend one of these things in person, end up getting “3 matches” emailed to you, and then you attempt to make contact and never hear from anyone ever again.
I felt like a complete horses’ ass when I attempted to do speed dating a second time 12 years later and had a very similar experience. This second time around though, I did a charge back on my credit card after the 3rd cancellation because “they couldn’t get enough people to attend.” Thanks for nothing Troy.
After soooo many bad experiences, and never having any success with what are the now conventional methods, and coming to the realization that I’m likely halfway dead now… I feel like I have a trauma response to the idea of dating at this point. I’d still like to be in a happy relationship, but even thinking about trying the methods I’ve tried in the past one more time causes me anxiety.
I’m introverted by nature, and as of 7 months ago, I live alone in a state, where I also work remotely from home and know no one. When I first got here, I tried a few events from Meetup.com thinking, “hey, maybe this is how 40-year-olds make friends,” but didn’t enjoy anything that I went to, other than the events where people sit in an audience quietly and watch someone else on stage. I found a really cool thing that I like attending where anyone is welcome to get up on stage and tell an 8 minute story about pretty much anything - fact or fiction. I really enjoy attending these, but it’s no way to meet people. The epidemic in question is absolutely not just about dating. It’s about making friends too.
I imagine I’m not alone in my experiences.
You are absolutely not alone in those experiences. What you’ve described is almost exactly the paradigm of experience since the pandemic- people are just bizarre and unpleasant, even while espousing a desire to make connections. It’s a bit mind boggling, but also very lonely.
It kind of feels like we are STILL isolating, except there are large cohorts of toxic people who aren’t, and so stepping foot outside is inevitably a run-in with some jerk, or jerkette.
Well, if it clarifies things at all – most of those dates were pre-pandemic. The only date I described that was post-pandemic was the woman who was cool but came on too strong.
Eh, I think my points still stand.
People, in general, don’t seem really inclined to make any kind of lasting, substantive connections and the pandemic just exacerbated the social and economic spiraling that was already extant. It also forced the majority of US Americans to see that there are no safety nets and our leadership (regardless of political flavor) is almost laughably inept/corrupt/blasé; in other words, no one is coming to save us, and that outlook is grim. So the average person, understandably, has some tunnel vision and a kind of deep, subconscious sense that things are going to get worse, regardless of their efforts to the contrary. That’s rocky ground to build any kind of foundation.
Agreed, the point still stands 100%. I just wanted to make sure that the timelines were clear.
I think if a woman you like making a hard pass at you makes you want to pass on her, you have something internal to resolve if you’re thinking you still want to be in an intimate relationship with another human being.
I mean dating at 40 has to be hard anyway. Your body does not look the same. It does not work the same. And making friends when you’re older is hard. If you’re religious you can try joining the church. At the stage thing did you go up and tell a story?
I think the rejection of the hard pass was maybe me more deciding that I wasn’t attracted to her. Maybe something else though, you could be right.
Atheist (but maybe Buddhist after a lot of stuff I’ve been reading recently), so the religious thing is mostly a no go. Perhaps I’ll explore Buddhism a bit more though, and see if there’s a temple or something the sort local to me. That could be interesting.
I’ve not gotten up and told a story, no. I don’t really have one that I’d like to share yet. I just enjoy listening to other peoples’ stories for the most part. There’s also the aspect of not necessarily knowing if it’s fact or fiction sometimes that adds some excitement.
Whoa whoa, not everyone at 40 is a washed up wreck. Especially with no kids. Physical maintenance and nutrition has come a long way. We aren’t the 40+ of the 80s and 90s who looked rundown af.
Yea I wasn’t going to get into that, but you’re absolutely right. I’m in the best psychical shape of my life right now, since I’ve been going to the gym almost daily since I have no one to socialize with in person.
Was not trying to say 40-somethings are washed up, but if you think it’s like 20-something I have some herbal brain supplements to sell you.
Also that message may have been public but it wasn’t aimed at you. I don’t know really but from what you said I’m sure you’re doing great. You’re maybe taking it from a perspective of someone who is in a different place from OP.
Tbh playing Magic the Gathering or Warhammer 40k with random dudes at a hobby store is cheaper and more fun than most traditional dates I’ve been on.
We need less gender separation in all sorts of social activities
Nobody’s stopping women from enjoying MTG or Warhammer
As a woman who has been trying for literal decades to exist in traditionally male nerdy spaces, there are a LOT of asshole gatekeeper guys that keep the women away. I’ve gotten everything from inquisitions into my “nerd cred” to outright rape threats from guys in nerdy and gaming communities.
Actual guy at gaming table one day: “Man, why aren’t there ever any CHICKS at these MTG meets? I wanna see GIRL boob, not MAN boob!”
Someone else: “It smells like 5 types of nutsack in here & every guy in here would eye rape any woman who came in here, that’s why”
Original guy: classic nerd laugh “yeah, exactly!”
They don’t listen, either. You get a girlfriend, wife, boyfriend, whatever, and they just keep being exactly the same and wondering why it doesn’t get better
I fuckin hate em
For me personally, it’s a combination of factors. A non zero number of my exes lost interest after a while and it damaged my ego pretty badly. Dating Apps are a string of getting ghosted with the occasional date that leads to me paying for drinks and dinner, only to get ghosted. I’ve always been a shy person and I can only handle so much failure before I don’t want to play anymore. I missed out on the high school and college dating scenes and it shows. There is one common denominator in all of my dating failures and it’s me.
These types of posts always get so spicy, and not in a fun way.
Yea, I’m not into these types of post’s comments either. I just wanna laugh at a chud sucking for being mega racist or sexist or something.
Third places
Well, we need referrals from friends to know men are safe. Even then i take it with a grain of salt
