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“What’s you’re biggest weakness?”
“I’m going to say my honesty”
“Not sure I think honesty is really a weakness…”
“I don’t give fuck what you think.”.
“you’re hired”
Had more or less this exact conversation with the manager during an interview for a promotion I really wanted years ago.
I did not get it.
Maybe an alternate perspective, but I do a lot of interviews for technical roles like developers, product owners, architects, etc.
There’s often a perception that the role can be done isolated at a desk grinding on tasks, but that is often not the case. It’s easy to find people who will do task work, but really hard to find people who are capable communicators and empathizers with the people they will be working with. At the end of the day, we’re trying to fill the roles with someone who we can trust alone in a room with a customer, and not someone who will be alone in a room doing tasks.
I hear you and essentially don’t disagree. But I feel like this might lean a tad toward gaslighting.
- Plenty of people are fine communicators when it comes to genuine collaborative work but still find the “game” of job applications very difficult or impossible.
- Being left alone with a customer is not a thing at all for many roles.
- Embracing diversity in abilities and doing so transparently is a thing that can be valuable for both companies and humanity. Presuming everyone can do all the things is, IMO/IME, damaging. It leads to cutting out people who have something valuable to offer. But also leads to not recognising when people are properly bad at something despite the fact that they really shouldn’t be given their seniority and role.
In the end, a job application/interview is not like the job at all (whether necessarily or not). That there are people in the world who would be disproportionately good at the job but bad the application seems to me an empirical fact given the diversity of humanity. And recognising this seems important and valuable in general but especially for those trying to understand their relationship to the system.
Yes I agree, you make some really valuable points here that I don’t disagree with. There’s a bit of an art to this and it is certainly not a realistic expectation that someone should be universally capable. Somewhere in that gray space between universally capable and walking hr incident is where we all fall.
Well said.
I can mask pretty easy dealing with customers because for the most part the interaction is predefined.
Trying to deal with the doublespeak and lies and unspoken requirements of situations like interviews is hard/impossible.
Because its all nebulous.
I think it’s also nebulously counter- or peri- factual in that it’s looking for signals whose value is often that you know to give that signal. Meanwhile the qualities relatively unique to NDs can be hard or impossible to signal.
But I don’t want to be alone in a room with a customer. I specifically avoid customer facing positions.
And I thrive at those positions. Hell, give me an angry customer and I’ll solve their problem, at least move it along for them, legitimately help, and have them apologizing for being an ass.
You sit in the back and crank it out, I’ll cover for you on the front lines!
Sure, just get me hired first ;)
True. What the image should say is Capitalism is hell for autistic people. And non-autistic people. And all other people. Capitalism is really only not hell for those born wealthy.
Yea, because non-free-markets don’t require people to get along?
No, but the difference is you don’t have the threat of starvation and homelessness if you can’t do it.
Absolutely. Capitalism categorizes all people as ‘useful’ and ‘useless’, the former really being ‘exploitably productive’.
Lots of folks with tons to offer the world are shunted off to the side because what they can offer isn’t valued by capital. Either that, or their challenges are perceived as too substantial for the accumulationists to bother to see what accommodations could be made.
But why bother when humans-go-in-money-comes-out is the depth of all thinking and concern? It’s not the company’s job to care that people are starving three houses over! Why don’t they just get a job—
because what they can offer isn’t valued by capital
People categorize people as ‘useful’ and ‘useless’. Hell, get down to Biology 101 and mate selection, animals select useful against useless. What do you have to offer?
“I’m having a heart attack! Help!”
“I’m a really nice guy that does wonderful paintings of the local pelicans!”
“Fuck off, I need a skilled physician and I’ll pay anything right now!”
Yes, people get paid more or less dependent upon their use to society. Why would society support you if you have little, or nothing, to contribute? For those of us in first world countries, we’re populous enough and technologically advanced enough to support a wide range of talents. Of course there are plenty of counter examples, but that’s mainly how it goes in any given economic or governmental framework.
tl;dr: We’re social animals with needs. Fulfill needs or GTFO. You don’t have to like it, but you better understand it.
I’m guessing you weren’t around for the Soviet Union, where every country behind the Iron Curtain was a poverty stricken hellscape (and still hasn’t fully recovered). I’ll take the end-stage capitalism we’re currently enduring over that shit any day of the week.
This is too involved a topic for a thread like this, but the red scare propaganda we learned about the Soviet Union isn’t a complete picture of how things were there. From researching around, it seems like at least on the dietary front, their caloric/nutritional consumption was comparable to the US, although there’s some variation in the estimates of different researchers/institutions. Sure, they didn’t have Macdonalds or Pineapples and stuff like that. But not having shitty unhealthy fast food and a fruit that could only be as widely available as it was in the west through imperialism isn’t exactly what I’d call a poverty stricken hellscape.
As far as recovering even now… there was a really important thing that happened between then and now that’s had an impact on these countries: privatization. Sell off public goods to private interests so they can profit off them at the expense of everyone else. And surprise, like we see everywhere else, private businesses don’t act in the public good and only occasionally, incidentally produce results that are good for everyone.
Like I said though, it’s a really complicated topic that’s worth reading more on if you genuinely want to learn. They didn’t do everything right, but these communist societies managed to rise out of feudal or colonial systems to become modern industrial powers despite all the forces aligned against them.
As for capitalism, even if it can produce great abundance,
a) That isn’t actually benefiting the vast majority of people. It’s hard to overstate how cruel it is to have people going hungry in a country that can produce so much food it throws a lot of it out with only like ~2% of it’s population working on a farm.
b) Like I mentioned earlier, a lot of that abundance isn’t merely from free trade and the ingenuity of industry. A LOT of it is built off the exploitation of other countries and the over-use of resources to the point of causing environmental damage.
Whatever you think society should be like, it isn’t hard to make a less cruel, less environmentally destructive, and more inclusive system than capitalism.
Capitalism hates free markets. Capitalism is all about maximizing profit at all costs. Free markets promote competition, which negatively impacts profit. It’s why so many capitalists seek to monopolize markets.
I was just going to say something similar to this. The job application is an assessment for your technical abilities/skills for the job.
The interview is a second assessment to gauge your personality and communication to make sure it’s a fit for the team.
There are VERY few jobs where you can work in isolation. Teamwork, personality and communication are important for almost all jobs. Hench the assessment that gauges those aspects.
I always hated this side of “communication, teamwork, and personality” early in my career. I thought those soft skills were overvalued by people who weren’t good in their technical skill.
Now that I’ve been a senior engineer for a while, I can say the soft skills are just as important as the technical skills. It sucks leading people with bad attitude and those whom we have to babysit all the time.
Lemmy is eat up with kids who downplay soft skills, sometimes acting like those skills are not only unnecessary, but undesirable. Happy to see so many in this conversation talking about their importance!
And us IT nerds are the worst, or were historically. Used to be, you could be antisocial and literally stinky, but hey, we had the arcane knowledge employers had to have. They were forced deal with us weirdo wizards, what with our long hair, holey jeans and beat up Chuck Taylors. Not so any longer. (I’d argue we’ve made huge strides towards a middle ground!)
Reminds me of the return-to-office hate around here. A mandatory, 5-day RTO is a revolting policy that only loses the best employees, plain dumb. But around here we act like there is no benefit to in-person collaboration. It’s obvious to me and I have a dozen examples at hand. Plus, you gonna tell me a group of social animals gains nothing from being social?! Jesus that’s naive.
You know you can be social outside of work, right?
Just because we are ‘social’ animals doesn’t mean we spend every moment picking lice out of each others hair.
But how do I show I am that guy day-to-day but not when it’s a high pressure situation I’ve been playing my head over and over for days?
I’ve found ways around it but never know when you could need this kind of advice.
The interviewer(s) has no power over your life, not presenting your case to a judge here. You didn’t have the job when you woke up this morning, you may or may not have it when you go to bed. You can’t lose anything, only gain.
Some advice that has stuck with me came from Andrew Carnegie’s How to Win Friends and Influence People. Yeah, modern sensibilities take that old-school title all wrong. It’s a book about the author’s quest to better understand social interactions and document his findings for future people feeling as lost as he did, thereby making himself a better person. It’s the only book I’d recommend to anyone. Give it a spin.
When faced with potentially world shattering change, and an interview is not that, I force myself to take a breath and ask, “What happens if the very worst consequence I can imagine comes true?” Go nuts here, get dark, what’s the worst you can imagine?
The answer is invariably, “I’ll soldier on, somehow survive.” Not like I’m going to blow my brains out, whatever happens. And you won’t either.
“Will I get this job?” is nothing compared to the many difficulties life throws up. I’m on the hunt now, after leaving an employer that treats their employees like gold. In fact, I’m on severance pay ATM, but running out fast. What if I have to go back to an office everyday? What if I only end up getting paid half what I was making? Fuck, what if I end up selling boiled peanuts on a corner downtown to make our mortgage? Well, I won’t die, that’s for sure.
The second thing I’d say, talk to the interviewer just as you would a friend of a friend, an acquaintance that maybe has an opportunity for you. They’re not kings, and you’re not their subject. Approaching them as an equal makes one hell of a difference, exudes sincerity, and that lets them see you as your really are. And isn’t that what you both want?
You can’t lose anything, only gain.
Idk about you, but I value my time. 5 hours spent for an interview process that does not end with an offer is a loss to me.
Let it go.
Seriously. That’s the answer. Don’t worry about the interview. Just see it as another conversation.
I the end, interviews are no better than picking names out of a hat, this from research done by Harvard some 20+ years ago.
I’m not sure I’m capable tbh. My workaround has been to get a temp job somewhere, be myself, then get offered a full time gig. It’s worked multiple times but it’s ironically more effort.
I’ve done that a dozen times. Worst case, you stack your resume. What’s wrong with that?
Just see it as another conversation.
How is this supposed to be better.
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Working on IT, I see quite the spectrum. One of which was a guy who was socially lacking. He did his job ok, but in office, he didn’t know how to interact with other people. He would bring his own pickles and put them in the fridge, and fish them out for a snack. Then he would get ice for his water, and go back to work. He missed a critical step of using a utensil or washing his hands, and it took a while for everyone to realize why the ice started tasting off.
Then we find that he didn’t wash his hands thoroughly, and I got sick eating chips he had rummaged through earlier.
He did an ok job at his desk, but made other people uncomfortable because he couldn’t pick up on enough social queues to prevent people from disliking him.
He was eventually let go for trying to fix a cable under the desk of the only girl in the office, on the day she wore a skirt. This was far and beyond extreme and I wouldn’t expect most people, no matter where they fall in the spectrum, to behave this way. But the interviews are to try to suss that out. “Culture fit”, I think they’d call it.
It’s always who you blow and not what you know. A “good fit” is better for the office than a “skilled worker.”
Relevant skills for most jobs are both technical and social, I think you’re implying that the decision is often made purely on social skill sets when technical are what matters and I see this differently.
If I’m hiring for an Architect for example, I am expecting them to help grow and guide developers, engineers, analysts, and administrators while collaborating with stakeholders AND possessing relevant domain technical expertise. Only having the domain technical expertise isn’t useful without the social skill set to leverage it.
Similarly if I’m hiring for an engineer, in expecting them to work with other engineers, their architect, their analysts, and their supervisors AND have relevant domain expertise. Again if they only have one half of that they aren’t actually functional.
It does change for entry level roles, and this may be an unpopular take… but for entry level roles I could care less about your technical knowledge… I’m looking for people who are entering this domain and can demonstrate intangibles like initiative, curiosity, and…. social skills. These are much better leading indicators of success as they are harder to teach and train, and frankly if they have those skills I can trust that the senior roles around them will help develop their technical skills.
Now you are the kind of boss I enjoy working with.
Interviews are currently the standardized testing of the corporate world.
There are many jobs where the vast majority of your workforce does not also have to be your sales department. Expecting everyone to do so is ableism.
You’re right about many jobs not being sales, my apologies if I made it sound like my scope of commentary was exclusively oriented to those roles.
Social skills are important more broadly than sales, and I’m mostly talking about how they apply in the organization as someone interacts with other peers.
but that is often not the case
Is that what you think as a manager or is that the answer I would get from your most introverted dev?
95% of my work is done by me, alone at a desk…
“What is your biggest weakness?”
“Bullet wounds.”
“…”
“Oh and stab wounds too.”
Acid - I’m vulnerable to acid… I checked that one while making Hominy one time.
… Had to check but you definitely use a base for that, not an acid.
I was that more focused and productive person at two jobs. I answered customer emails at a bank and they actually had a meeting about me because my numbers were like 30-50% better than everyone else’s. They thought maybe I wasn’t actually DOING my work. I was, I was just good at it and quick at typing and copying and pasting and using templates. I streamlined all sorts of stuff to make my job easier. “How are you doing so many emails?!” “CTRL C and CTRL V and templates” “oh”
Reminds me of a friend of mine. He was promoted to some sort of engineering metrics analyst. His job it turned out, was to take a bunch of different reporting products and then create a presentation once a week to go over all of the metrics and have them in easy to understand graphs on a specific template.
So of course a month into the job he automates the entire thing and his job now takes a total of 5 minutes because he waits on the actual numbers to be crunched and spit out into the new template.
He’s super bored and asks me if he should tell his boss what he’s done and possibly get another promotion out of it. I said “Sure, if you want to be promoted to the layoff line.”
So his boss gave him some extra tasks and he just keeps blazing through them. His boss wants to know how he’s able to be the most productive person they’ve ever seen in that position. He asks me again, if he should tell the boss and his boss’ boss because they are super impressed. I said “No. Absolutely not. Just shrug and tell them you just do your best every day. They’ll eat that right up.” He does. He gets a promotion a couple of months later to a middle manager of some type. Probably due the Peter Principle.
Don’t ever give out your templates or show your process. If they can hire someone less experienced at a much cheaper rate, they eventually will.
Don’t ever give out your templates or show your process. If they can hire someone less experienced at a much cheaper rate, they eventually will.
I think you’re usually legally obligated to. I mean, crappy boss never ask is one thing, but if they inquire how you do your job, which templates you use etc, the employer owns the templates you created during your paid work time on probably the computer which is also the employers property. You don’t have to throw every detail about how you do your job on the table yourself if no-one asks, but if they do you should or they’ld win any legal dispute and you could be fired on bad (financial) terms. Likely whatever you show and explain is still to “complicated” anyhow.
I’m sure laws on this differ everywhere in the world but I assume you’re talking US. It is doubtful an employer could win a law suit against you for not showing your specific methodology unless you have a contract and that was part of it.
As far as firing goes, there aren’t very many situations that an employer can’t fire you over for cause but obviously also can fire you without cause.
Would they own the templates? Yeah but they’d also have to know to look for them unless you told them. Otherwise they’d probably already have created some templates and expect you to use and perhaps improve them.
Don’t worry, once you get the job you’ll discover that they lied about what the work is anyway. You thought the job was sitting quietly at a desk and solving little dev tasks. Actually that’s 25% of the job, the rest is: 25% meetings where they make doing the little tasks harder, confusing, and miserable, 25% other tasks you aren’t good at and that aren’t part of your job, and the last 25% is more meetings about those other things. The ratios will adjust over time until only about 10% of your job is doing your job, and the other 90% is email and meetings.
So many god damn meetings could be a fucking email - or a group chat.
Or skipped.
This is why jesus invented mobile games
The last job I had where I was in the office full time would make the entire team sit through a 3-4 hour meeting with the clients. Well, not with the clients. The clients would be on the phone arguing with each other about what the requirements were. There were almost never any action items beyond “Clients will discuss requirements for next week.”
We were not allowed to have our phones in the meeting. We were not allowed to doodle in the meeting. We had to sit there - for 3-4 hours a week - listening to people argue over a bad VOIP connection.
Why not just use gmeet?
It was over a decade ago so options were limited
The only way this could get any worse would be if the clients were natively speaking another language (one that you do not understand), would fall back to that five minutes into argueing among themselves, and after another five minutes, you hear your own name mentioned.
The interview process is what is causing me the most anxiety right now. Lost my job at the end of June, and I KNOW I need to be looking harder, but I’m just dreading the whole interview process. I’ve been procrastinating like crazy…I just don’t want to relearn a whole culture of a new team; it’s so mentally draining. 12 years somewhere and the idea that I have to start all over again…😭
My man, we are in much the same boat. I’ve turned procrastination into an art form. Sleep till noon, fuck around for a few hours before my wife gets home, drink beer all night, “I can handle it all tomorrow!” Boy oh boy do I have plans for tomorrow! Rinse and repeat for going on 2-months, and the severance pay is near an end.
And yeah, it’s like being thrust into a whole new family, because your former family is dead. You’re an orphan, thrust into this new group of relatives you’ve never even heard of. They’re all very nice and smiley, but it’s still scary as hell.
“This is your aunt Sally, she’ll help get you settled. And this is your new daddy, Tom. He’s fair, but a little gruff, really a teddy bear! Just don’t tell him I said that! Ha ha! If you need clean sheets, talk to Hilda over in Housekeeping, she’s so nice! But keep your receipts or she’ll murder you in your sleep. Ha ha!” Been doing this over 3 decades, I 'm socially adept and it’s still intimidating.
My wife is going through it now. Started the highest paying job she’s ever had this past Monday. But hey, at least we’re not foreigners, truly strangers in a strange land like her. Imagine moving exactly halfway around the globe and trying to fit in! That woman is as brave as anyone I’ve ever met.
OTOH, I have zero fear of interviews. Hell, I’d do 4 a day and would welcome the opportunity. It’s the legwork, and paperwork, that I find daunting. At my last job, they interviewed 100 people before landing on me and another guy. Jesus, I had no idea. It was only 1 of 8 resumes I fired into the void. Dumb luck or did I make my own?
Hope an earlier comment of mine helps:
I got insanely lucky wit my job. I responded to an email that came through my college CS department about a potential job and got an in-person interview with the CEO of a tiny company nobody has heard of. The guy’s personality made it easier to talk to him despite my anxiety.
Instead of the bullshit riddles that every other tech job interview has, he sent me home with a simple assignment to make a simple webpage where a user could log in.
After submitting that, I kinda forgot about it until several month later when I randomly decide to check my school email account and found an email from him that was almost a month old (my PC wasn’t working before that, and I didn’t need to use it much at the time).
I replied just in time. 12 years later I’m the most senior developer.
Where you really lucked out here was that the project is still going after 12 years and you haven’t been through some bullshit outsourcing/insourcing cycle that clears out everyone who knows what they are doing
Yeah. We have a bunch of clients so I can be on several projects at a time. And it’s a privately owned company that, to my knowledge, the owner has no intention of selling.
Just wear comfortable clothes. The old guard is dying off.
Comfortable sure, but not, like, pajamas.
As a man I’ve interviewed in a button down shirt, a skirt and open toe sandals and gotten a job offer. Only assholes and IBM require a suit and tie these days.
Open-toed sandals with a skirt and button down shirt? If you can’t take fashion seriously, how can I expect you to do your job? Business, business, calves, and then exposed toes? How am I supposed to focus on my job when you do things like that?!
Formal pajamas
Those silk pajamas you see rich people wear in movies from the 80s and prior.
Business casualest.
Unpopular opinion: I think jeans are honestly more comfortable than pajamas. Pajamas feel a bit too loose and airy somehow, jeans and a t shirt or something feel a bit closer and thicker and give a reminder that something is between your skin and the outside while still being soft.
More unpopular opinion, jeans are the worst type of pants that I’ve ever had the displeasure of wearing.
Stretchy jeans are infinitely better than classic denim, give them a try before writing off jeans forever.
Pajamas for the weekend, sweat pants for the work week, jeans for going out, and suits for weddings and funerals.
To some of us, no clothes are comfortable.
Sensory issues are a sonofabitch and literally no neurotypical will ever have sympathy.
Guess I’ll start interviewing candidates in the nude.
You know this is literally harassment but the mods won’t see it that way, and if I respond to you like I REALLY want to, I’ll be the one with the ban.
I think you know this and are doing it on purpose.
I think you’re angry because you are very confused.
No, I’m angry because I was born with EDS and am medically angry nearly all of the time and it’s largely untreatable.
I’m angry at you SPECIFICALLY in the MOMENT for your mockery.
The only confusion is why people like you are so magnificently dedicated to being such assholes to the mentally different and pretending its no big deal.
This is a choice you’re making.
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haha another neurotypical mocking me for something I have zero control over that makes my life miserable lemmy is so supportive and inclusive.
And all of you ask why I am so angry all the time.
Sorry about your reading comprehension.
Your reply was sarcastic and unrealistic, that is mockery, a textbook definition.
The issue here isn’t my reading comprehension
You have to be able to work with the other people there in lots of jobs.
I am very good at socializing with colleagues, users and whatnot, but this skill does not translate at all well in an interview.
Maybe the interviews are done differently there. Here the same sort of social skills are used, at least in the ones I’ve been to.
Or maybe you’ve just been lucky
Or you’ve been unlucky
Given the upvotes and the corroborating comments in here, it seems you’re wrong
Or maybe, as some smart individual said, the interviews are done differently over wherever you live. Could also be a lot of selection bias here, considering this is ADHD Memes community on Lemmy.
Not sure how much you know about Finnish job interviews tbh.
My peep, of course there’s a selection bias here. The selection bias is that interviews are a big problem for ADHD/ASD people. I’m glad you’ve been lucky enough to not suffer what most of us here do but that’s scant consolation for the rest of us.
It’s that simple.
It’s the worst!
I’m actually really good at these soft skills (I don’t know why, they’re not skills I have during every day life). But I can only maintain it for the duration of the interview. I fall apart as soon as I get the job and thats when the trouble starts.
Gosh, same. I can do the charisma thing and chameleon whatever I’m supposed to say, and heck, even be good at the damn job…
…too good.
Once it stops being interesting, I start trying to find ways to make it fun, or squeeze in creative projects during downtime, and uptight types don’t like discovering that I’ve still got the spark they sacrificed right out of business school.
Disclaimer: Not claiming to be a genius or anything.
Tip in case you haven’t discovered it yet:
Don’t tell them about your efficiency improvements. They won’t appreciate it. You’ve made their job harder by requiring them to think about something. To them it was already automated and that automation was you.
Instead, just keep producing the same outputs and say nothing. You’ll only get a raise or promotion when you get a new job, so spend the extra time on that. When you do get a new job, give the automation to one coworker, preferably your replacement.
Source: am experienced engineer
I met a guy like this. He just changed jobs every year. His past employers said they never got any work out of him, but he just kept leapfrogging, getting better and better jobs at each company advancing his career.
Wow, that sounds suspeciously like me, except for the many periods of unemployment, which mostly come after my burnouts, which happen after half a year in a new job.
My most talented coworker was a contractor that was hired on full time. He has repeatedly said he would never have made it through the hiring process. I think about that a lot.
Because it is bullshit. HR have no clue how to find good candidates, and whoever hired them to get a new hire had no idea what the new hire should be able to do and so just gave HR a few buzzwords to work with. But even if they had been given a good job description, they are basically muppets.
I don’t disagree but the way they describe it sounds more like an autistic nightmare. I don’t know ADHD to be commonly associated with sensory issues and social cues and that hasn’t been my direct experience with it. I’ve had issues with social cues but I’ve found it easier to pick up on them when I had peers to practice with that weren’t put off by my adhd.
Also I don’t know that I would be focused if they just gave me a job because of the whole adhd thing. I’m certainly not significantly better than anyone else in the building at my current job…
It even says autistic in the post. This is not an ADHD thing, even though it’s common to have both.
There is a huge overlap between the two conditions. Probably far more behaviours in common than exclusive. We think of them as separate as a matter of convenience e.g. to administer healthcare, etc, but there is no precise scientifically reliable definition for either. It’s like saying someone is white or black, superficially the difference is obvious but when we look closely we cannot define what we mean by those words with universally repeatable measurements.
Sure, but what’s described in the post is very much in line with very common descriptions of things autistic people struggle with - so much so that it’s basically in the definition of the diagnose - and it’s not something that is typically (or ever) being ascribed to ADHD.
Just because these spectrums are related and interwoven (together with other ones as well) in mysterious ways we don’t yet understand, we don’t need to treat them as one. Especially as laymen. They are separate diagnoses with different definitions. By, as laymen in a social forum where people often times go before even considering going to get evaluated, cross-ascribing symptoms between diagnoses we risk steering people in the wrong direction and they could potentially waste years thinking they have a diagnosis they don’t have (according to our current health care systems).
How do stimulants work on autists?
Oh lmao I didn’t even catch that. Thanks adhd
jobs are designed specifically to torment autistic people
Jobs are designed specifically to keep large portions of the population too busy to organize and overthrow exploitative systems of control.
This is precisely why I gave up on getting an IT career lmao, fuck interviews
For the brief period when I was a manger, I tried to make interviews more work-related. I was told I couldn’t ask for a writing sample during the interview for a job that required writing clear, concise communications under pressure. This is one of many reasons why I am voluntarily no long supervisory in my field.
