wait, why are we holding liberals responsible? Shouldn’t we be holding the uh, fascists responsible? They’re the ones causing all the problems LMAO
Because liberals can only ever critique some symptoms and never the root causes which leads to an inability to address the problems of neoliberalism leads to the rise of space for fascist ideology?
maybe? But tangentially providing space for shitty people doesn’t make you a shitty person. Housing someone who is/was a murder doesn’t just make you a shitty person.
Politics is quite literally a game of 4d chess unless played from the individuals perspective, in which case its a funny put name on paper and put it into a box game instead.
I feel like the vast majority of self described liberals would have plenty of issues with violent and fascist-esque institutions running for government positions. I can’t think of any well known liberals that are ambivalent to trump, let alone supportive of him.
“Politics is quite literally a game of 4d chess unless played from the individuals perspective, in which case its a funny put name on paper and put it into a box game instead.”
Why can’t politics be more than voting from an individual’s perspective?
Also, if you know the person you’re providing a house for is a serial killer and you do nothing… You are a shitty person.
Why can’t politics be more than voting from an individual’s perspective?
unless you’re a politician or a bad faith individual who likes to undermine politics, there is literally nothing else for you to do lmao.
Outside of that you might be doing shit like canvassing, but that’s nothing more than encouraging people to vote, and if it is, then it’s fraudulent as you’re influencing peoples votes unjustly.
Also, if you know the person you’re providing a house for is a serial killer and you do nothing… You are a shitty person.
why though? What if they’ve gotten out of prison? What if it’s also quite literally, not your fucking problem? You’re not encouraging them to kill people. Are we saying that married men who are serial killers should have their wives and families arrested and thrown in jail just for being in proximity to them? What about wayne gacy?
Politics is quite literally a game of 4d chess
Oh my god this is the ‘Trump is playing 4d chess’ meme but for liberals
Oh my god this is the ‘Trump is playing 4d chess’ meme but for liberals
except for the fact that it’s true, global politics is quite literally a game of 4d chess, it is the most delicate and fragile game of jenga ever created, the distance we are from complete and total economic failure at any given moment is much smaller than you would think.
wait, why are we holding liberals responsible?
You mean, apart from the fact that liberals cannot protect the status quo without violent fascists and therefore protects and enables fascism?
Apart from that?
You mean, apart from the fact that liberals cannot protect the status quo without violent fascists and therefore protects and enables fascism?
how the fuck do you expect liberals to protect the status quo against violence? With more violence? That seems counter intuitive, this is literally an impossible proposal here.
how the fuck do you expect liberals to protect the status quo against violence?
With fascists. That’s how, Clyde.
That seems counter intuitive, this is literally an impossible proposal here.
Don’t tell me it’s impossible. Tell it to the liberals who applauded Biden when he added more armed fascist goons to the streets when people were demanding he defund and/or abolish them.
Doesn’t seem that impossible to them, does it?
fighting fascism with fascism seems like a highly russian propaganda bot take to me, but what do i know.
Don’t tell me it’s impossible. Tell it to the liberals who applauded Biden when he added more armed fascist goons to the streets when people were demanding he defund and/or abolish them.
LMAO
fighting fascism with fascism
Good God but you are dense. Have you ever seen liberals oppose fascism in any way whatsoever? Why would they oppose the very thing that allows the liberal order to exist in the first place?
ok
Cut a Liberal and a Fascist bleeds.
really? Seems to me like if you cut a liberal a fascist would rise, but ok.
that’s a phrase from hexbear, it constitutes 90% of all messages ever posted there
it’s a phrase from the Black Panthers
idk who let the hexbear alts into this thread, but it is rife with people who should not be allowed to go outside for causing spontaneous extreme weather events with their sheer spite for the existence of the world.
You’d think so but turns out Liberals are voting for Genocide as long as it’s not them being Genocided.
who the fuck are they supposed to vote for? Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. There is LITERALLY no way to win here, you are just a sad seething fuck with nothing better to do than shitting and pissing yourself when presented with one mildly annoying option, and a mildly less annoying option. Nothing is fucking perfect, humans don’t agree on anything, land rights are a fucking mess, the ONLY and i mean THE ONLY solution to this problem is literally war.
The best thing you can do is encourage people to vote for problems they’re passionate about, rather than sitting here trying to undermine the very fucking concepts that the western world is currently built upon and struggling to maintain.
No you can demand Democrats to stop the ceasefire and plunge them in the polls.
There is something you can do. and saying “vote democrat anyway” is undermining it.
and then you can wait for the republicans to win, because they literally do not care about the israel palestine war, and will simply fucking bomb the entire fucking thing within about 2 months.
But yeah no, it’s definitely the democrats that are the problem here.
Also i didn’t say vote democrat, i said vote period. So nice try i guess?
Removed by mod
Voting is necessary, but not sufficient.
Vote Green.
The Greens only exist to aid the Republicans by pulling votes away from Democrats.
Yes, that is the Democrat propaganda, and you are parroting it very well.
Lmao, that’s how a FPTP system works, you dunce.
Since it’s so obvious, only someone against fair representation would be in favor of keeping FPTP.
Spoilering the Democrats is the only thing the Green party has ever accomplished.
glhf with that national turnout rate that historically follows the green party in literally ever nation in the world ever (except for locally)
List-based voting first, otherwise you’re fighting voting math.
I would argue on necessary, but it’s probably less work to just do it.
voting without a coherent strategy, and voting for the fucking dems in a national race though; that’s clown shit.
Ah, it’s Mr. I didn’t pay attention in Civics class.
Nor the last couple decades of reality.
The last couple decades of reality where Democrats have won multiple elections and even held majorities/super majorities yet fascism has only gotten worse if anything?
At best, democratic party leadership does nothing to stop facsism, at worst Democrats literally push fascist policies and contribute towards the normalization of them.
a lib once compared it to the man/bear discourse from I think twitter a while back. the one that got all the idiot dudes super angry?
tried to say trump was the man, and we should vote for the lesser evil, joe biden, the bear.
I explained that she must’ve forgotten what that shit was about. trump was the bear.
Who is the man then?
So help me God if you say Biden
Whats the moral vote for?
I’ll wait while you type an exceedingly long reply that dodges the question completely.
your mom. only she gets to have it. it’s only about her. all hail yeetpics’ mother, first of her name!
Fascists always vote = fascists get what they want = idiots saying “voting doesn’t work”
pretty sure it;'s not the voting.
pretty sure it’s everything OTHER than the voting that gets them what they want. and the liberals refusing to let anyone stop them.
you’ll notice that even when a fascist loses an election, like in 2000, they still get their guy in office sometimes.
Yep. Fascists and the far right in general are always pushing their policies and ideas in any way they can, wether in office or not, they are fighting like its the last week of voting 24/7 365.
Liberals think that just voting every couple years and shaming anyone who doesn’t vote will stop that, but then they all go to brunch if they win and people realize they Aren’t helping at all (and in many ways hurting the cause) so they don’t bother next time.
Then Republicans win, and liberals come back out, often times against things they *happily support under Democrat rule (immigration is a good example, Obama was hard on immigration and it was ignored, Republicans created a fake border crisis and liberals called them racist and fascist, then Biden started doing those same policies and they’re just normal)
or the fascists lose electoralism, and get the office anyway, because the left isn’t big enough to fight them and the libs are happy to just let them.
and yeah the weird gaslighting ratchet effect ‘im going to do the exact same thing the last guy did but libs are going to yell at you for not sucking my dick about it now’ is not cool
also, you know, when they do riots to get their way. sometimes in an election.
They might, but I mostly know them as nutters out on the streets protesting or kicking up a fuss.
You don’t vote for facsism or vote away facsism.
The people “voted away” facsism in 2020. Didn’t work then, because it doesn’t work.
This comment is the perfect example of why fascism has a habit of winning. Laziness from the populace. One election in one office is all you’re willing to commit. We voted one time in one election, why wasn’t that enough? One office wasn’t run by a fascist and that’s got to do it for the entire country for the rest of all time I guess. One vote is all you’re willing to commit. People who don’t understand fight against fascism is a lifetime of work are the people who deserve fascism. Beating fascism is about building a strong Democratic populace. About building a system and a society that respects the Democratic process. It takes decades and it has to be renewed constantly. Also wouldn’t be a bad idea to just go around hanging fascist every 30 or 50 years or so either, that’s also an option.
People don’t want to hear that! Sheesh!
But really. Some people think voting and protesting is the epitome off not being lazy about about it, but it’s the bare minimum.
You think ACAB? Be a cop and be the exception. You think the problem is higher up? Get involved in politics. You think it’s corporate? Get involved with ethical companies, and shun unethical ones.
You think you shouldn’t have to? That’s because you’ve gotten lazy. There’s nothing intrinsically wrong with that, it’s just easy to take advantage of - and if you don’t like the results of the laziness, eventually you’ll like them so little you’ll have to do something or die - and you’ll probably get motivated at that point.
This is a very privileged point of view
bro every complaint and problem in your life other than eating, drinking, and sleeping is literally a privileged problem.
Eating, drinking, and “sleeping” (shelter/safety) are significant hurdles for a large portion of the population
which is why those aren’t privileged takes :)
That’s a very psychologically weak take, and comes from the privilege of not having to take up these matters into your own hands, because our society had enough flexibility that you haven’t had to. …but that kind of weakness is pretty common these days, because people don’t have a lot to live for.
Regardless of whether you have a lot of power, personally, or whether you don’t have a lot of power, spending what you do have ethically and prudently matters a lot. Although many may not be able to make things better on their own, many have enough power that they will regret inaction later, when action becomes absolutely necessary, and no real preparation has been made.
In short: Call it privilege all you like, see where that gets you.
its like you ignored his comment and responded to something else entirely. weird stuff.
This comment is the perfect example of why fascism has a habit of winning. Laziness from the populace. One election in one office is all you’re willing to commit.
I didn’t say anything about laziness or not opposing facsism in multiple ways. Voting once every 4 years is the laziest way of “opposing facsism” of thus the least effective, especially when the party you are voting for pushes fascistic policy (like aiding genocide and anti-immigrant narratives…).
People who don’t understand fight against fascism is a lifetime of work are the people who deserve fascism.
NOBODY deserves facsism. Comments like this show how unseriously you take facsism, that’s probably why you think you can just vote it away. I take it serious and recognize that the fight against it requires real ground work and more than having people vote for fascist light every so often.
I didn’t say you said it I said you were an example of it. Hell you just did it again, every 4 years you say. Exactly the issue. You people think it’s a one-time game. It’s not , it’s constant. It’s every Congressional race it’s every senate race it’s every state race it’s every School Board Race. The fight is unending. Also yeah some people deserve fascism, they’re called the people that sit on their ass and let it overwhelm them. People that aren’t willing to fight it are the ones who deserve it. Cuz they’re the ones that enable it more than anyone else.
I agree it takes groundwork, what kind of ground work is my question though. Real groundwork? The kind of groundwork that endorses democracy and respect for democracy? The kind of ground work that keeps progressively moving us away from fascism step by step? Yeah that’s the kind of ground work we need. That’s the kind of ground work you’re sitting here arguing against. Your groundwork is vote one time in one election and then turn your nose up at the entire process and sabotage anyone who wants to keep fighting. You all or nothing people are the problem. When you’re steering a nation it takes a long time for the rudder to move. It takes constant pressure to change course. That course change is going to take years and maybe even decades but you have to keep pushing on the rudder. If you never try you go where you were headed in the first place. That’s what your endorsing here. One brief nudge and then sitting on your ass. Doesn’t move anything.
What do you think about direct action?
Show us how, genius
How do you define Direct? I’m open to a very wide range of it whether it’s from going door to door all the way through throwing bombs into the carriage of a tsar. Action’s fantastic particularly at local level, in fact primarily at the local level. Up to and including Carriage routes.
If you’re capable of implementing a structure that can actually stand, direct action may be warranted. If not, then not, unless violent anarchy is better.
Start small. Build your structure and run some group that way. …and expand.
The kind of groundwork that lets people know that their interests lies in the people and community and not in sacrificing those things to vote for a saviour.
Example: do you know how hard it is to get people to care about undocumented immigrants? Specifically how much harder it is now then pre-2020? Do you know why?
Because those saviours you convinced them of have turned and told them that Republicans were actually right about immigration all along and it is a national security issue rather than a human rights issue.
Yup. There it is. The path of fascism victory. Exactly what I’ve been saying. Thank you.
Yep, encouraging people to care for one another rather than playing team sports between 2 parties, neither of which care for people, is totally the path to fascism. /s
No. Voting for the normalization of fascist policy is what leads to fascism. Look at Britain. Labour compromised on immigration during the election and now they have anti-immigrant riots and pogroms.
That’s what you are advocating for. That’s what electoralism gets you.
why didn’t it work? Trump literally isn’t in office today. Unless we’re talking about jan 6th, but that’s an institutional problem, not a fascism problem.
Facsism isn’t when Donald Trump.
We are aiding a genocide, cracking down on protests against said genocide, demonizing immigrants, police reform hasn’t happened…how exactly did we defeat facsism?
fascism isn’t when anything, fascism is literally just an authoritarian control structure powered by a chain of loyalty of unwavering support (hey wait a minute this sounds more like donald trump) further empowered through the use of violence to accomplish goals (hey wait a minute, this sounds more like donald trump also)
We are aiding a genocide, cracking down on protests against said genocide, demonizing immigrants, police reform hasn’t happened…how exactly did we defeat facsism?
literally none of the things you list here are fascism, also the police thing isn’t explicitly true, a lot of places did engage some level of de-policing, just to different levels. A lot places legalized weed, some places de-criminalized drug use, a lot of drug and low time offenders are getting light sentences.
The problem is institutional lag and inertia, you cannot simply delete an entire police force over night, you need to improve the community first, and then delete the police force, otherwise things become nightmarish. It would also help if the motto wasn’t literally “defund the police” because that was a pretty fucking stupid choice of words.
Once community starts to improve, and crime starts to drop, the police will naturally follow, taxpayers dont like funding unnecessary police force, and police departments prefer not to host extraneous expenses.
Well it sounds like you have the secret knowledge of how to eliminate fascism.
Put the keyboard away and show us…
genuinely surprised they even said “fascism is not when donald trump” even though donald trump is the most textbook fascist in the US right now, and then proceeded to talk about defunding the police lol.
Socialists do nothing -> Fascists receive no consequences -> Socialists do nothing -> Fascists seize power -> Socialists join the fascists and say it’s all the fault of the liberals.
Complain all you want about the liberals voting to prevent fascists from getting power, but they’re doing something while socialists do nothing except complain.
I’ll let you in on a little secret, many liberals are socialists that got tired of doing nothing. Voting in many successive elections to get the change you want over many decades is far more admirable than sitting on the sidelines complaining about the people that are making an effort.
Pretty sure the "hold liberals accountable " falls under the “do nothing about fascists” banner
Yeah, but simply not voting isn’t a solution. It’s a self-congratulatory exercise in washing your hands of responsibility. We all see this is the problem. It’s been the problem our entire lives. It’s clear as day for anyone with half a brain. So…what then?
Defeatist bullshit
Hey it’s ozma the Russian troll
The everyone I don’t like is Russian bit is old
I’m used to it by now. A lot of commenters don’t like me rocking the boat and just want people to fall in line without question.
Geeze i know, wouldn’t it just be better if no questioned your motives?
We are talking about a 1k+ meme poster here.
Thanks for the reminder. I’ll go add another meme.
Aren’t we already having that negotiation right now about the Palestinians?
Limitations of action from either side are entirely due to a lack of a strong majority in Congress. Without it, no matter the goals, the capabilities are limited. There are times I do really appreciate some of the checks congress has over the executive.
this meme plays out like the government is controlled by one party at a time
It really really isn’t when there are no consequences for filibustering and only one party does it. They can chokehold any decision indefinitely. I’m not even American and yet I know this, must be nice being that gullible and naive.
must be nice being that gullible and naive
I appreciate the personal attack
Oh btw, I appreciate the childish whining “but mom he said it in a mean way!!”. Keep crying, still doesn’t make you right lmfao.
Clowns who focus on form instead of content really make me laugh.
Yw!
This might have been a pattern before but the new dem party seems to be hitting harder and faster than in the past. Plus it’s hard to make change when ur not willing to do shady shit and ignore the essence of democracy and constitution
I do not disagree, but let’s see if they can keep it together after January.
- There are two choices in the United States 2024 election. No third party stands a ghost of a chance of winning. No, not even if the 30,000 people you can reach on Lemmy all vote for Timothy Greenparty.
- A Trump victory in 2024 would not only be just as bad if not worse for the citizens of Gaza than Harris would, but also pose an existential threat to a large number of vulnerable Americans (trans people, immigrants, women seeking abortions).
- Given the margins of victory in 2016 and 2020, Kamala might not win if leftists don’t vote for her.
- Snoozing fascism for four years is better than inviting it through the door now, and buys us time to build our defenses for when it comes back.
I’d like to focus my counterargument. Which of these statements do you disagree with?
Unfortunately, you can’t vote away fascism. I think things might get a little rough soon regardless of which party wins.
It sounds like you disagree with statement 4. Is that right?
I don’t believe it’ll be snoozed.
Other people in this thread have already replied telling you why that’s wrong, so I don’t see why I should bother.
Schrodinger’s vote: your vote only matters if you don’t vote.
“Oh, so you’d rather the fascist win?” I say, as I’m being dragged from the voting booth into the gas chamber.
Ummm akshurally it’s called Fascism Lite™ and it’s totally different then Fascism, vote harder or you’re a Russian bot 🤓
