3.5 was edition I played the most. It was a reason why I quit RPGs for nearly a decade because I hated it so much.
Every time I see another meme about how amazing 3.5 Tarrasque is, I remmember how amogn actual 3.5 players Tarrasque was the biggest joke. It was always brought up as definite proof designers have no idea how to make good monster. It was laughably easy to beat. A wizard could casually solo it, the same abilities people now miss in 3.5 amounted to ribbons. It was a laughingstock, forums had 100+ pages discussions how to fix it and general consensus was it’;s beyond saving. It was first proof in 3.5 if you cannot use magic you’re only good to roll over and die.
I honestly don’t know if everyone claiming 3.5 Tarrasque is such a horrifying monster are trying to rewrite history or unintentionally proving what a broken, unplayable pile of garbage 3.5 was, if it’s biggest punching bag is actually dangerous in a different, better designed game.
The 3.x tarrasque became a joke, but that was a result of the extensive options combined with people’s system understanding - sure a single wizard could kill it, but that still needed to be played by someone who understood the system. It was a system that gave unlimited options, so if you worked out how to combine enough of them you could break the system wide open, and the tarrasque was a great yardstick for that.
Then you come to 5e’s tarrasque and it’s so badly designed that it’s obvious from a glance that a level 1 character with flight can just hover above it and plink it down with a bow. I’ve seen 3.5’s brought up in comparison to that, but not as an example of difficult fights in a vacuum.
i can also confirm that the tarrasque was pretty universally clowned on for being easy in 3.5e. That discussion is basically what drove the whole “town built around the tarrasque” idea on the wizard forums and enworld. That said, it’s probably not as bad as the 5e tarrasque by comparison
the whole “town built around the tarrasque” idea
The what?
http://www.saltinwoundssetting.com/2015/04/salt-in-wounds-overview-origin.html?m=1
A campaign setting about a LE township whose economy is predicated on harvesting the perpetually regenerating form of the Tarrasque. The town is divided into districts based on the massive magical spears that have pinned the creature to the soil. And there’s a ton of intrigue surrounding the various political families that are charged with maintaining - and periodically adjusting - those magical spears in order to keep the beast constrained, as well as the different religious, arcane, and druidic factions who have wildly different takes on if/how this process is to continue.
A very cool setpiece and one of the more exciting ways to describe how industrious adventurers might deal with this kind of creature.
3.5 was edition I played the most. It was a reason why I quit RPGs for nearly a decade
I’ve heard this line so many times, from virtually every game system. The system you know the best is always the worst. The system you’re least familiar with looks genius by comparison.
I remmember how amogn actual 3.5 players Tarrasque was the biggest joke. It was always brought up as definite proof designers have no idea how to make good monster. It was laughably easy to beat.
As I understand it, the Tarrasque isn’t intended to be a direct threat to the players so much as a civilization-wide threat that players have to deal with. If you’re just running heads-up against the creature, there’s a wide basket of indirect effects and clever builds that can kill or disable it. And when Wish/Miracle are on your spell list it isn’t an existential threat to a 17+ level party.
But all of that presumes you’re coming into contact with a Tarrasque as a known quantity. You’re not stumbling on the Tarrasque unexpectedly or dealing with it as the muscle attached to a more magically or socially savvy antagonist. You’re not fighting in any bizarre circumstances or unusual conditions. It’s not the Tarrasque that’s easy, it’s the fact that you’re on a message board with a pre-defined set of circumstances and a standard level appropriate set of resources to pull from that makes things easy.
I honestly don’t know if everyone claiming 3.5 Tarrasque is such a horrifying monster
An unanticipated introduction to a Tarrasque, particularly one encountered in unfavorable circumstances, can quickly end in a TPK. Players down on spells, caught napping, managing some secondary hindering conditions, or in an enclosed space (the meanest improvement I’ve seen a DM give to a Tarrasque was simply assigning it a burrow speed) don’t have the luxuries of time and distance to prepare themselves. And that’s what makes it scary.
But, again, you can say that about any of the Animal/Beast class of monsters. The humble house cat can one-shot a first level wizard if it gets initiative and rolls well. But the wizard wins with a single volley of magic missiles. The Kraken is a trivial encounter if your players can sit up on an 80’ tall cliff and fire arrows at it until it drops. Its significantly harder to deal with when it is demolishing the boat under your feet 600 miles off the shore.
Part of the DM’s job is to set the stage for high drama. “You see the big baddy waltzing up to you, take ten rounds to prepare” doesn’t get you that.
Could you give examples? I never heard of it being easy to beat, and I would love a laugh at it being easily handled
the usual go to back in the day was to drown it, because it wasnt immune to that in any way. Simply gate it to the plane of water. There was a number of other work arounds like that too.
Killing it by banishing it to another dimension of reality sounds like the epic, high level stuff the Terrasque was made for
i mean, there were plenty of other ways, including things you could do at lower level, that was just the common go to because it required a single high level spell, and usually you fought big T at high level.
The big one was its complete lack of mobility abilities or ranged attacks, so a party with overland flight could attack it pretty much with impunity. Iirc that was most commonly paired with shrinking a bunch of boulders, carrying them up with you, then dropping them right as the shrinking spell expired. This is all from memory 15 years ago though so details could be a bit sketchy.
so a party with overland flight could attack it pretty much with impunity
That’s true of anything without a fly speed, assuming you’re doing all your adventures on a flat plain during the daytime in perfect weather. But the game changes slightly when you’re spelunking through the Underdark, racing through a forest of redwoods, or caught by surprise in the middle of a hurricane.
The drama of D&D is in the circumstances. You’re not supposed to have every fight in ideal conditions with a week of downtime to prepare. If you’re summiting a mountain during a blizzard and one of the Tarrasque’s meaty fists pops out of a cave wall to try and snag someone, or you’ve accidentally woken this thing up from beneath an ancient tomb full of restless wraiths, that’s a very different encounter than squaring off against this lumbering titan as it casually stomps its way across empty desert.
That’s true of anything without a fly speed,
And without a burrow speed, and without a ranged attack, and without an ability that lets it ground all flying enemies. Maybe a skilled DM could make it work, but in other editions it wouldn’t have been an issue.
Though the other problem is that you can deal limitless damage just by dropping sufficiently many 100 pound boulders. In 5e, they got rid of damage from falling objects, but you just need to drop enough creatures. Or ignite enough horns of gunpowder with a single Bonfire.
And without a burrow speed, and without a ranged attack, and without an ability that lets it ground all flying enemies.
Giving the Tarrasque a burrow speed goes a long way towards improving it, I agree. The hurl boulder ability of giants wouldn’t hurt either, although there’s really nothing stopping a Tarrasque from hurling rocks with a standard BAB.
I wouldn’t mind giving the Tarrasque a breath weapon, either. It works for Godzilla.
But these are incidental improvements. Just ambushing players in a cave will go a long way towards negating it’s deficiencies, even at high levels.
you can deal limitless damage just by dropping sufficiently many 100 pound boulders
Catapults are popular for a reason. But there’s still some issue of ammo and opportunity. You’re really banking on your target just hanging out at the optimal firing range.
I remember the go to strategy being to summon an Alip, an incorporeal undead that can drain strength without needing a save.
And in 3.5 STR 0 meant your body no longer had the strength to have your heart beat so you’d die with no save.
I think that’s still the case in 5e, there are just way less monsters with ability-draining attacks (shadows are the one most players have encountered, they can still be pretty deadly!)
Yeah, I ran campaigns from first through 3.5, never really played 4th or 5th. I’m curious how 3.5 tarrasque is easy to beat with anything other than broken munchkin builds from conflicting source materials that no sane DM would allow, or would be reserved for epic level campaigns. Like sure, when you get to a point where you can casually cast things like hellball, then things like the tarrasque might be easy. But at that point you will be doing the tango with the outer realm creatures and Demi gods.
My personal favorite:
A 9th level druid (any druid) flies 40ft in the air and upcasts one of their summon animals spells to summon 8 giant owls, then makes them fall prone.
3.5 falling damage was both clear cut and bonkers. Your Owl MIRV would do an average of 679 damage.
Not munchkin, not a special build, just the base rules and a default druid. It’s even easy to write off thematically as the owls kamikaze dive bombing it instead of just falling!
The 3.5 Tarrasque didn’t have the 5.0 damage resistance to non-magic weapons, it has a flat 15 DR, which was the style at the time, but useless against the numbers falling damage mechanics would push out.
I think a good DM would say the summoned animals aren’t magic slaves and simply would not kill themselves doing this, but at the end of the day you could also just do this with large rocks so you might as well let them have kamikaze owls.
How do they manage an average of 679 damage?
First Aerial bombardment rules would probably give the Tarrasque a DC 15 Reflex save for half damage for each. Assuming it was a surprise at first the Tarrasque probably doesn’t get this so I’ll ignore it.
Second, a Giant owl’s likely only weigh like 140lbs by loose calculation, being a little over 4x the height of a snowy owl (so assuming 4 times equivalent weight and then cubed is 64kg which approximately equals 141lbs. It could be a little higher but its not breaking 200lbs) and requiring falling at least 20ft before they even start ranking damage by the srd 3.5 rules for items falling on players (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm). Assuming you meant 40ft over the Tarrasque, and allowing for 1d6 damage every 10ft past the point instead of the 20ft that’s implied to be required, the owls would deal 2d6 damage each at that height, requiring 20ft of falling to start incurring damage. Even without it that’s not 679 damage.
That’s pretty much 0 damage too, because 2d6 per owl - subtract the DR 15 of the tarrasque from each instance of damage - is 0 damage. Iirc there was a min 1 damage even for negative strength modifiers but DR superseded that. Even if I’m wrong that’s 1 damage per owl max.
Even if you went the 220ft up above the Tarrasque you’d need to hit maximum fall speed under the more polite 1d6/10ft rules, after falling 20ft, you’d end up with 20d6 each, the cap for fall damage. Which after DR is 440 damage.560 damage without DR.
Which actually isn’t that high up. I thought the Tarrasque was taller than 50ft, but its still a hell of a timed shot tbh. It assumes the Tarrasque doesn’t move for like 6 or 7 rounds, or moves in a straight line into the falling birds.
That doesn’t’ fix the weakness of a Tarrasque to some form of high impact drop damage, necessarily, just means that I’m suspicious the birds can pull it off.
Maybe birds aren’t good at math?
That’s fair. Neither is the Tarrasque.
So it depends on the spell, but I think you are talking about summon nature’s ally. That allows you to give instructions to creatures who can understand, and they will fight to the best of their ability, but as a DM I wouldn’t interpret the spell as written to include suicide.
But even then, a good DM doesn’t put a tarrasque into play and have it sit there and die. Once it realizes it is getting damaged and can’t retaliate, it can burrow from we whence it came, etc.
So I think most of the strategies involve weak roleplay from the DM, munchkin builds, liberties with the rules, or both.
Even then, actually killing the tarrasque requires a wish spell, which is not something that a 9th level druid can do.
Summoning animals to kill themselves does not sound like a thing a druid would do
in 3e, summon spells specifically conjured the spirits of creatures that couldnt “die” per se. They would desummon if they lost all their HP and reform later.
Look, everyone knows that <previous thing> was much better than <current thing> because it was <comparator> and more <adjective>. Just look at how much <comparator> <element> became! They completely ruined it.
Fingers crossed this gets fixed in <next thing>.
Had to view source to see the “insert thing here” things. Some issue with the formatting using < and >, not sure if it’s just on the Jerboa app.
I wrote it on a pc, then looked later using Jerboa and saw what you saw. Definitely a Jerboa issue.
I’m viewing this via old.lemmy.world in a Firefox tab, and if Comment105 hadn’t pointed it out I would not have even realized why your comment made no sense… so, it’s not just a Jerboa issue.
I play 3.5 for a few years. One of my groups swore by it. It was… textured. When you call it a steaming pile of shit, I see your point and honestly agree with you. But I will say it was… completely what it was. It wasn’t well designed, but it was immensely interesting. 5e is all of 3.x, but with the interesting parts sanded down. In my estimation, that makes 5e the lesser game.
3.5e just had some much room to explore. Yeah, some parts sucked or didn’t make sense, but I think that really led to some interesting characters and fun moments in games. I haven’t played 5e much precisely because it’s so smooth in comparison.
